oh the Ethics of pheromone
use.....this question has been posted many a time, your chasing your tail to find an answer, its more philosophical
than one might expect....
I'm
going to pose one question to you guys and I want all of your thoughts.
Do you feel that, while using
pheromones, women (or men) are attracted to you soley because of the pheromones?
I ask this because I am
asking myself the same question. I tend to believe that they are attracted to the pheromones, and not me... that
tends to affect my self esteem.
I haven't used pheromones in about 2 months now. I wanted to "do it the honest
way" through appearance, social skills, and most of all, personality. I'm a fun outgoing guy with my own life and
passions. My looks are about a 7 on an average day and an 8 on good ones. I've been studying social skills and the
dynamics of attraction by people in the seduction community (I call it attraction community.) People like David
DeAngelo, Mystery, Style, etc etc... all have valid points and I have used them to better my life.
It's clear
to me that the thing that controls my attraction to women and other people is me, not pheromones. I feel like
pheromones are "cheating" and whenever I see a girl that I would like to start a long term relationship with, I
don't want to use pheromones. I want to be natural, because what will happen when I stop using pheromones? If she
leaves, that will be a downer on my self esteem... that I was still the same person and she lost attraction for me.
You know what I mean?
Belgareth I'd like to hear from you, if you wish. PM me if you are inclined to.
Thanks for any input everybody
oh the Ethics of pheromone
use.....this question has been posted many a time, your chasing your tail to find an answer, its more philosophical
than one might expect....
Bronzie, I don't think that the ethics of pheromone use is so philosophical, though--yes--it hasOriginally Posted by Muscle4Hire
been discussed several times. Last time it came up I think I commented on women with breast enlargement, use of
make-up, stylish clothes etc for comparative purposes.
Muscle4Hire, do you think we would ever see any woman
express such concerns about either "natural" or "unnatural" enhancement of their attractive features?
For
example: Dear Abby, whenever I see a man I would like to start a long term relationship with, the first thing I do
is take off all my make-up, take out my breast padding, and change into sweat pants and a sweat shirt. I want to be
natural because I fear what will happen if he ever finds me in his bed with my messy hair, no clothes, and no
make-up.
Signed: Not an early riser
----------------------------------------------------------
Smelling
good means looking good!
JVK
Good point JV. In other
words, women use everything in their power to attract men... tight jeans, short skirts, pop their breasts out, do
their hair... the list goes on. Do us as men think this is unethical? No. Hell, we like it and I'm a little
offended when they don't wear makeup as to say "hey, aren't I worth it?"
Anyway, that's a good point, but
I'm still thinking about this one.
*Please don't close this thread!*
I realized there have been posts
about this before i.e.
http://www.love-scent.com/f
orum/showthread.php?t=2689&highlight=ethics+pheromones
I believe this thread does have usage. Please try
to answer my question as specifically as possible: Do you feel that, while using pheromones, women (or men) are
attracted to you soley because of the pheromones?
Then, please add any additional thoughts on it. I am
thinking of a term called NLP reframing here. If you recognize that terminology, plug away.
Thanks
I've never known a woman to be
solely attracted by anything. If the package is not complete, any part of it can be a deal breaker. But the
pheromones can be the ice breaker. At least that way you have more opportunity to decide what hoops you're going to
jump through, if any. Pheromone-enhancement can lead her to do some jumping.
With regard to NLP, it is
definitely the pheromones that are doing the programming. Other associated sensory input makes us think we're
responding to the associated sensory input. But only pheromones have the ability to directly activate genes in cells
of tissue in the brain that direct the organ systems that influence behavior. Direct activation of the
gene-cell-tissue-organ-organ system pathway is the key issue in modeling human, or non-human animal behavior. We can
consciously over ride our non-human animal behavior, but ususally don't -- we are driven by unconscious affect,
just like ever other species on the planet.
Now that fMRI shows differential activation of the human
hypothalamus by human pheromones, other theories of sensory input driven behavior should attempt to explain their
validation: model used; organization/activation; nature/nuture; evolution/creation; effect on hormones/affect on
behavior. Either these dichotomies are eliminated, or the model doesn't extend well to
humans.
JVK
1) What are the ethics of the
guy or girl who naturally has high mone output?
2) How about the ethics of the naturally busty blonde?
3) How
about the ethics of the rich person?
4) What about lipstick?
5) Getting a hair transplant?
6) Having a hot
car...
7) Very nice clothing...
8) A good haircut...
9) Whitened, straightened teeth...
10) Using jelqing to
lengthen your piece by a 1/2"
11) Etc.
No ethical conflict here.
Hell no. ThatDo you feel that, while
using pheromones, women (or men) are attracted to you soley because of the pheromones?
only happens with insects and other small critters. Otherwise you could spray 'mones on a corpse at a funeral and
watch the ladies drop on the stiff like flies.
My experience is 'mones only enhance or amp up what you
already have. They do not add or take away anything. If you're a charming guy, you're even more engaging with
'mones. If you're a ass, 'mones help project you as an even larger hinny. If a lady has feelings or attraction
for you, the 'mones entice and urge her on. She'll often be more forward than normal. However she ultimately does
what she really wants to do. If there is no attraction, a litter of NPA poured down your drawers won't help one
iota (save making yo' balls twitch).
"I'm just a dirty hornytoad" -Gegogi
I agree with what gegogi
said...
I've noticed that sometimes they just seem to have little effect , usually because I feel a little flat on
that day and don't have my happy face on.
early 40's white male or or
I'm with Gegogi as well. mones
are only a small part of the whole attraction picture and aren't all that important. Reading these threads, I'm
often convinced that the mones had nothing to do with the results people get other than acting as an ego booster.
They help at times but at other times it seems very unlikely the mones had anything to do with it other than how a
new suit would help you attract some women. They do help but if you look like the hunchback or don't brush your
teeth and shower pheromones aren't going to do much.
Ethics are strange. What you might consider unethical I
might find completely acceptable or vice versa. I'm not going to tell you to live by my ethics but expect you to
live by your own. If you feel pheromones are in some way unethical you shouldn't use them.
If there is an issue
with your ego, that's something else altogether. Somebody else asked about mones being harmful and the same thing
applies. If you are concerned that mones do too much instead of the real you affecting the girls, don't wear
mones.
Last edited by belgareth; 10-03-2006 at 04:47 AM.
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
And then... what's the real
you?
If you act some way long enough- does that become the real you?
How many real you's do most people
have?
Even the most intimate people in my life don't get the entire "real" me. Even if they ever did briefly-
we all change constantly and at different rates.
That's true too. I can think
of 4-5 personalities I show depending on the situation. One for my kids, another for my wife, still another for my
employees and another for my peer group in business plus another for a service group I work with and another for
when I lecture. All are similar but none are the same.
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
I agree.Originally Posted by Gegogi
'Mones only make women who already would be potentially attracted
to you, to show signs of attraction.
I'm an attractive, social guy. 'Mones enhance my already confident
nature, and with them I become God's gift to women, literally.
Still, without 'mones, women do get flirty
around me, approach me, smile at me, stare, etc...but it just happens much less frequently...maybe once or twice a
week. With 'mones it happens several times in one day.
But those several times are all from women who would
already find me attractive. It just intensifies their attraction to me, by like 10x.
I have no ethical
problems with 'mones.
The only problem I have is if someone found out I used them...that would suck somewhat.
I don't think there's
anything wrong with using pheromones on a personal level, but then again I don't think there's anything wrong with
using drugs that are currently illegal.
If in the future, it ever surfaces that certain pheromones produced by
humans can have detrimental effects on the health of people exposed to them, or developing babies or something, then
yeah I could see it being wrong to wear high amounts of that pheromone.
At the same time, I don't think it's
very likely that chemicals naturally produced BY humans could be harmful to humans. Now I know there are some
'pheromones' being produced now that are minor chemical alterations of pheromones that have long been established,
and I could understand if it is proven that somehow these new mutant pheromones are harmful to humans, but I don't
think even that is very likely.
Good points, all of you. I
must say that I have found on 2 separate occasions that I have worn pheromones as an experiment and then purposely
NOT worn them around the girl to see what happens. In both cases, the girls were extremely attracted to me. I then
tested out one time not wearing the pheromones and acting the same, not changing a thing, and both times I had the
interest drop off to where they wouldn't even answer my calls.
This was after interacting with them a couple
of times and then them wanting to go out to get some coffee, so we didn't really know each other that well. So,
what this is saying is that it would not be a good idea to remove the pheromones early on in the relationship.
However, after you are really connected personality wise, it's really hard for a girl to just detach herself. But
then again, removing the pheromones could have that waining effect on the girl's psych, which makes her think that
she's not getting the same feelings anymore.
I think my new question is: What if pheromones were not
manufactured anymore? Do you think your relationships would die out?
a relationship involves alot more then synthetic pheromones, so noOriginally Posted by Muscle4Hire
Bronzie always with the one
liner responses... You must've twisted what I said. Let me rephrase this.
Of course a relationship involves
more than pheromones but taking out the pheros cold turkey can really have a detrimental effect. The removal of that
stimulus can have a snowball effect on her psyche. She's got that phero high around you and you both are havin fun
yadda yadda... then you take phero high away and emotionally, she starts to think the fun is over. You still do fun
stuff, but its not the same. I'm just being realistic here.
This is something I imagine is pretty common.
Yup.
It would be like
taking the drinking out of going out clubbing. I can't relax and get giddy to the same level without it.
What
you say also applies to natural mone production. When it declines with age, you lose some of that
spark.
However- I think women's emotional connection is broken more by a lot of other things that have nothing
to do with mones. And long term relationships turn on those emotional connections.
Okay, thank you all for the
posts. JVK, you are da man. I need to get your audio tape.
Anyway, my frame was: If I use pheromones and
attract a woman, she is only attracted to the pheromones. If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't have her and if I take
them away, she will leave.
My new reframe: Pheromones can only break the ice for me. I still need to be
looking good and in a great mood to express my best qualities. I've had girls hooked on my pheros before but the
fact that I was in a bad mood/didn't have social skills killed the attraction. Therefore, the pheromones only
loosen her up to experience you and you need the personality to go along with that. Who you are as a man (or woman)
is what attraction is based on.
I like the reframing, but also want to call your attention to an article I just cited in theOriginally Posted by Muscle4Hire
Pheromone Research portion of this Forum. The article attests to the power of a single exposure to a pheromone, and
to its potential long term affect on behavior. Human studies can be predicted to demonstrate similar
affects.
JVK
I was
gonna say the reframing Maxo-Texas did, on his first reply here, was good and to the point, which it is. But yours’,
Muscle, is EVEN BETTER. Well done!
Now about what JVK said early in this thread, I agree to a
great extent; except for one little thing. I don't think the `mones are the ONLY thing doing the programming here.
Indeed, they do a lot of it; but at the most-part, what they program is the context. I can't think of a better way
to put it than the way golem put it:
The pheromones are just the icing on the cake, But YOU my friend, are THE CAKE.
In this, I'm actually
agreeing strongly with something else JVK said… The package HAS to be complete. In this case, you’d be the
package, and the pheromones would simply be the amazing wrapping that says to her “Take me, take me! I have
something valuable inside! ”.
So yes, of course that she’d normally get the point quicker, with the aid
of the rapid `mone-messengers sending her brain the point through the body, but the point (that you’re worth
it) would be there with or without the `mones.
Now, just to get things clear… The other things doing the
programming are various. For example: your behavior, the additional context (i.e. the environment you’re in at that
moment, the previous activities she did & her feelings towards them etc.), the coordination between what you say &
what you do, the `rapport` between the two of you etc. etc.
But that wasn’t my point here. There are many aspects
to her liking you & you can’t be expected to be aware of each and every one of them, besides, that awareness will
increase by itself following the experience you gain with time.
The point remains that YOU are the
package, and the `mones are not what she’s attracted to, but rather what initially attracts her to you.
Another important thing to remember is, that just as you said you like makeup on some women, the `mones
only compliment you. And she most probably enjoys them in the same manner she might've enjoy sex toys. You know
what I mean?
It’s a bonus for them AND for us. Nothing un-ethical about it IMO
The reaction by
people who find out about your `mone-usage, can indeed remind us somewhat of that to an un-ethical behavior (I say
this, unfortunately, from experience). But that has only to do with the automated pre-programmed effect of that
persons’ personal view on whatever external “manipulation” they associate the to-them-unknown-and-unclarified
concept of `mones. Remember, that manipulation should have no negative associations here… it simply means
specific-communication. Yet to them, it sometimes does have a negative association. Why? `coz they
generalize; we all do, it’s efficient, it just gets outta control sometimes. They might have been hurt by one type
of manipulation & generalized a "run-from" behavior towards all types of manipulation or even
seemingly-manipulations.
Taking off the `mones by the way, doesn't end the relationship. After she found out, I
did take them off, and she was still convinced I had them on all the time. She kept declaring "You put that special
cologne again!" Even though I was `a la natural`. It was actually a while after I decided to put them back on,
when our relationship started going down the stairs, so to speak.
Oh and Gegogi… I love the way you put it.
I definitely agree!
I’d elaborate but… (see P.S. lol)
P.S. (My.. hehe... It's already here? Oh
dear...)
I just GOTTA learn to shorten my posts… pheew… I have no clue how I’m going to do that lol…
Here's a news video that I think is a goodOriginally Posted by tenaciousBLADE
example.
http://www.fox10tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5653893
It's from another thread, but
useful in the context above. In the first example, I perceive the wearer to be a rather obnoxious drunk who has no
concept of how to interact positively with women. So, of course he thinks that human pheromones don't work. In the
second example, the wearer seems more personable and successfully interacts with two women. Still, he is skeptical
about whether the pheromones affected the women. Skepticism is great if it leads to learning more about a particular
topic. If he was interested enough to learn more, the biological explanation for what appeared to be happening is
very convincing.
JVK
Yes, I've seen the video
on the original thread already, and I agree completely on what you're sayinghere
Both about skepticism & about
the behavior of the `mone-user being an important factor of the programming mentioned above.
I agree with Gegogi.Mones add to your "game" but you if you are not aOriginally Posted by Gegogi
"player" to begin with they won't work for you.Women do they same with the way they dress they know what they are
doing by getting our attention.Our way is more chemical LOL!
Just to add there is no difference to what we do by using mones and the guys who buy expensiveOriginally Posted by platinumfox
cars,clothes etc. to attract women.....our way is cheaper and we get more results.
lol Cute!our way is cheaper
and we get more results.
I second that one
You know...going back to this
thread...I want to make another comment:
It's that, after using 'mones for about 7 months now, I can say that
I'm a lot more comfortable with this concept...
Because, the reactions I get are very similar to the reactions I
would get from women anyway when I was younger, in my late teens, and probably had much higher natural 'mone
levels.
I understand, as I've started to notice, that everyone has natural 'mones...in fact, the reactions I
got back then were even more incredible. Sometimes girls would be very intimidated by my looks. I look no
different from the way I used to look back then...which leads me to believe, the only reason women may have seemed
to lose interest may have been something else...my level of 'mones. When I started using 'mones, those reactions
came back...so my conclusion is that 'mones are very real, and they play an immense role in attraction between
sexes.
I justify use of 'mones to myself with an analogy like this...
...It's like guys who use Viagra to
help with erectile dysfunction. I'm not a fat, bald, slob who's getting women that wouldn't otherwise want to be
with me. Sure, you get an incredible hit here or there, but for the most part, I'm just maintaining my 'mone
level as it was long ago. I've always been attractive, and 'mones just help me maintain that edge that I had
moreso when I was younger...and so now since it's fading in my early twenties, I'm just putting it back at the
level it should be. It's just like any other supplement that is meant to keep you young, beautiful, etc...
I
think it would be unethical only if you could automatically make women sleep with you with some product. It
doesn't happen, you still need social skills, you need game, you need confidence...girls don't just fall into your
lap because of your scent...you have to be the whole package.
In theory, the "fading" starts inOriginally Posted by smooth312
the mid 20's due to levels of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) that begin declining in a straight line with age.
Similar decreases in testosterone do not begin until much later in life--at least as is known at this time. My point
is that -rone is one of the two primary metabolites of DHEA (associated with masculinity). So, what you have alluded
to is the likely need to increase the -rone component of your scent signature during the aging process in order to
maintain attraction to your natural scent.
JVK
Oddly, my DHEA sulphate test
levels are normal for a 35 year old and i still see the effects of mones and teste supplementation (at 45).
Pheromones are totally ethical. We produce them naturally. In using these products we are merely
enhancing the effects of our current pheromone production.
Similar to taking vitamins and other nutritional
supplements. Trying to make the system (body) produce better results.
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