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If I may ask?
Edit:
Original link
It is her research that I first
bumped into on the internet. I found it so intriguing that I kept on reading and cross-referencing and I ended up
here!
I did a search on her product for women - Athena 10:13 and didn't find much info on it here. Am I correct
in assuming it is DHEA based, just like the Pherlure. It must have quite a bit of nol in it as well, I would
guess.
What is your take on this product? I bought it, tried it for 5 weeks. Nothing major happened. I had one
shining star evening with some friends where everyone was paying alot of attention to me, complimenting me, etc.
Ohter than that, the stares from guys could be just due to the fact that I am more aware of my surroundings after I
put on the mones. Maybe they were there all along and I didn't notice. I'm currently in limbo - waiting for my new
products (from this site) to arrive. I'd appreciate any comment you could make regarding the Athena 10:13. I'd be
honored to have your opinion.
Naughtie
Last edited by CptKipling; 03-14-2005 at 04:37 PM. Reason: inserting link
bump
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Bump...
Things that go "bump" in the night... Sorry you'll have to teach me howOriginally Posted by CptKipling
bump
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to move some of this stuff to some of the different forums!
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Naughtie
From update March 1,
2005:
--------------------------------------------------------------
... during the Montel Williams television
show that aired on November 16, 1993, Winnifred Cutler said, "Well, I can't tell you the exact secret formula. But
I can tell you it contains human pheromones, DHEA. And they're dissolved in an alcohol, a standard cosmetic
alcohol, SD40. During her appearance on the Sally Jessy Raphael television show that aired on February 2, 1994,
Cutler claimed that "There's a patent pending for it." She has since continued to claim that the patent process
prevents her from disclosing her product ingredients. The full text of her 1992 patent is available HERE. What is
she trying to hide?
-------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that
Cutler has any valid claim with regard to her products. I don't know anyone involved in olfactory research that
believes her claims are remotely credible. Research reports from testing her products make good press, but until she
publically reveals what "pheromones" she thinks she discovered, no one will be able to replicate studies that she
claims show her products work. No replication, no science.
JVK
have tested Cutler's phero products
extensively. They do work.
Most of my early experiments with pheros were with Virginia Cutler's two
additive products. In concentrated form they are powerful. They have intense, unmistakable behavioral effects, both
in crowds and on individuals. The reason they may not have as much punch in small dose applications is that she has
an aversion to androstadienone. Her materials have a distincly sweet -nol fragrance if you know what to sniff for. I
am almost certain that they contain more than DHEA, she lets people think she's using DHEA. I once directly asked
her about androstadienone and estratatraenol and she immediately clammed up. I'm almost certain she's using
estratatreanol, which, BTW, is one helluva good pheromone in both men's and women's formulas, a damned sight
better than androstadienol. Estratatraenol is expensive though, as a matter of fact, about the most expensive
commercially available pheromone on the market, I was last quoted $1200 US per gram by Molcan, and with the dollar
falling it may have gone up from there. I'm not sure what Cutler's motivations are, although I have spoken to her
at length, she is a highly intelligent, and highly informed researcher with bona fide expertise in her field. She
is also, as is typically the case with real scientists, quite conservative in what she says and equally secretive.
Having said that, I frequently will combine a couple of vials of Cutler's formulae with some of my own
things, add in androstadienone and you get a potent as all get out sex juice. Simply because she lives in her own
world of marketing and promotion does not mean she isn't for real.
A co-author of
her mid-80's studies from which she credits herself for discovering human pheromones told me that there was nothing
in their research that remotely suggested discovery of a human pheromone. He's for real. I don't recall any other
Forum posts that attest to the effectiveness of the Athena Products. I'm happy that you found some worth in
them.
JVK
Maybe they weren't trying too hard
Her stuff works. Plain and simple. I've tested it on numerous groups, some informed, some naive. I've
tested in small groups where I passed around a treated paper towel and had individuals inhale, then report their
most immediate sensation. The results ranged from mild to wild. So the fact is that it isn't just me noticing
effects. I've realeased larger amounts into large crowded restaurants and seen wholesale behavioral changes. I
believe that the limitation of the product is that it is purely alcohol based and evaporates rapidly. Right there
may be an important key. The control of release over time may be a more important factor than previously recognized.
I expect the best way to get her stuff to work would be to keep the original bottle in the freezer so the vapor
pressure is low, pour a little out into a small tube or bottle with a light deordorized vegetable oil, shake
vigorously and apply.
Very intriguing - Thank You!
Thank you both for these extremely interesting posts! I am truly intrigued by this product. Having read Dr.
Cutler'sr books I have developed a healthy dose of respect for the lady, and I have to just trust her. Now, whether
her particular formulation works for everyone or on everyone, is another matter. Like I said, I have had mixed
successes. Some startling reactions (from gay people no less!) but nothing consistent enough for me to be excited
about. And certainly not with my husband who was the intended recipient!
I will most certainly give the oil
formulation a try.
JVK - I did also buy your product (unscented) and I'm very anxious to try it out. Since
everything I bought has no -rone and very little -none in it, I'm not going to worry about OD-ing until it actually
happens (if it does).
Naughtygirl suggest you read the
book by JVK as well it gives a much more plausible and science (modern) basis for pheromone research. His a real
leader in this field
That said persobally tried cutlers products myself
One word
EXPENSIVE
PERFUME / COLONGE
Even realm gives better results
Much better real quality with the LS products but
just my thoughts
I understand fully that Cutler
gets no scientific respect. At some point she would have to release formulae to other scientists to get that.
However, whether her product works or not is an open question in my mind. Forum reports have been unimpressive,
with only a small minority reporting success.
That doesn't mean the product is useless. The A314 product has
few good reports when used alone, but I have found a way to get results with it in combinations, for example.
Nor does it mean it is useful.
It is logical to suspect DHEA might be a pheromone, given how extremely
plentiful it is on our skin, and given that it is a propheromone. I do know of one other pheromone
manufacturer/scientist that suspects as much. That said, there is no evidence about it.
On the other
hand, in my personal experimentation I believe I have had a number of positive experiences with women following a
small dose (5-10mg) of oral DHEA, and less positive or negative ones with a large dose (30mg plus). That suggested
to me it could be pheromonally active when ingested. You can get a jar of it for $5.00 and see for yourself.
I
just don't think the Cutler product is worth the high price; given the risk of poor results. I'd be happy to try
it for free. DHEA is cheap stuff, though DHEA-s is, I believe, illegal for the general public to buy; is unstable;
and yet is the form most plentifully found on our skin.
If Cutler was smart she would give free samples away in
the forum here. If it hooked people, she'd benefit; and perhaps restore some of her reputation.
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
Interesting
reports.
Hey surf's up, do you really surf?
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
References to anything the other suspecting scientist
has published are of interest to me. I've discussed the likelihood of DHEA as a pheromone with many olfactory
researchers.
The luteinizing hormone (LH) response to pheromones is well known. If DHEA could be linked to a
change in LH either in the same or opposite sex, it might deserve some consideration as a pheromone.
The
primary metabolites of DHEA: androsterone (A) and etiocholanolone (E), are much more likely to be pheromonally
active since the A/E ratio varies in males and females, as well as with sexual orientation in males.
The A/E
ratio somewhat attests to variability in processes of sexual differentiation that alter sexually differentiated
anatomy and physiology--with the differences in physiology being able to chemically signal others in a manner that
communicates sexual orientation, which is predisposed genetically before we are born.
Does an infant male
recognize that his mother is genetically female due to her visual features or due to her scent signature? Does a
homosexual male recognize another homosexual male by his visual features or by the genetics of his scent signature?
Studies of other mammals make it very clear that males and females recognize genetic make up, and sex/gender via
scent, not sight--though obviously they learn to associate the visual input with the scent. Does biological
research on humans suggest something else? Is human learning via scent/sight association different than learning in
other mammals?
As I
recall, she markets product with claims that it may take six weeks of use to be effective. She would need to give
away lots of product. Her basic premises seem flawed, her research is flawed, and she promotes secrecy. Her
reputation is unlikely to be restored.
JVK
I vaguely recall some old
discussions of a substance, perhaps DHEA, which were converted to pheromones. Is that the case with DHEA? Does the
body convert it?
Seems to me some of the old-timers discussed some sort of metabolizing program to build up
their natural pheromones by taking a supplement.
If that is the case, would there be a connection between her
product and the supplement regimen?
DHEA well some conjecture i have
taken in hte past and noticed without pheromones some moderate "hits" take it more to feel good it helps on the
inside
As for cutler and the 6 weeks to work dribbel - you can put pheromones on and immediate
impact
So yes maybe some of her products do something but its bash the cutler products because mostly they
dont do anything versus the other stuff sold here on LS
Cutlers products = overprice smelly colonge perhaps
with trace amoutns of unknown formulae and hype hype hype
Given the grammar of
Cutler's quote (from the Montel Williams show), it seems to me that she said her product contains human pheromones
AND DHEA, since she said "THEY'RE" dissolved in alcohol. To me it suggest that she uses both.
I have no idea if
her Athena products work or not, but from the reviews I've read, it does appear that the female version, Athena
10:13, is the more effective of the two. Any ideas why that might be?
Also, while I agree that it doesn't promote
good science by preventing replication of a study, I can sort of appreciate Cutler's reluctance to divulge her
"formula". Doing so would make her product able to be reproduced, and thus potentially less profitable for Cutler.
I'm not sure I blame her for awaiting a patent before making the formula ingredients public.
I forgot to add that
Cutler states her Athena 10:13 is human pheromone synthesized from the armpit sweat of younger women. Could that be
DHEA? (I have no idea how one gets DHEA!)
On another note, does anyone (JVKohl??) know if topically applied
synthetic human estrogens like estriol or estradiol have any effect on increasing a female's attractiveness to
males? I wonder, since estrogen levels drop with increased age, if boosting estrogen levels (either topically or
orally) actually have an affect on copulin strength/production?
The problem is her protocol for use, not the
material
Look, either you take a substance out in the field and you test it hard, find out when and
where it works, or you rely on second hand reports. The belief that Cutler's product is fundamentally based on DHEA
may be a load of crap. Anyone here done spectrography on it ? Because she says it has DHEA doesn't mean that's the
whole story. It may well be a cover to keep her out of proprietary conflicts. I have worked with pure androsterone,
a close realtive of DHEA, and it isn't like her product.
I now believe that her protocol either results in
the product being too dilute, or there is too much loss due to evaporation.
Dilute no more than one bottle per
fluid ounce of carrier, which should ideally be an unsaturated vegetable oil. As steroids are highly soluble in oil,
the pheromone will almost completely transfer into the oil carrier. Keep this in the refrigerator. If the oil
hardens at all due to the refrigeration, all ow it to warm up enough to liquify and apply the liquid to the
skin.
Neither her male nor her female product are overt sexualizers. They tend to be empathogenic
communication enhancers. If, as I previously stated, you add androstenone to the mixture it can become powerfully
sexual. From my conversations with her, I get the impression that she isn't too comfortable with unleashed male
sexuality, thus she intentionally designed a product with a gender equality slant to it.
The typical
consumer or pheromones, OTOH, doesn't appear to be buying them for their finer points of relationship improvement.
The basic selling point is more sex in less time with fewer speedbumps in the road. Your -none + -nol will do the
job fine if you have any self presentation skills whatsoever and you know the most, um, fertile hunting grounds to
visit.
When the Athena products are used in their strong form, with only moderate dilution, you can get an
intense feeling of harmony, communication, sometimes a feeling of deep empathy and understanding of another person.
Much social inhibition can drop away and you may experience almost disturbingly honest conversation, somehow
reminiscent of beta-nol. That deep soul feeling is probably estratatraenol. Most products won't contain it because
of its' high price.
Having said all of that, Athena makes a nice platform to build other formulae off of.
When I mixed up Athena, androstenone,
and some extra alpha-nol I began experiencing some incomparably fine
sexuous moments that had the full compliment of physical drive and emotional connection.
You've made some
excellent points, SurfsUp, and I agree with you. And, I do plan to try the Athena 10:13 and field test it myself.
Why not?!
I was told by Cutler's representative that I should not mix te 10:13 into oil. but only alcohol based
fragrance and NOT atomized (spray) fragrance, either. May I ask a few questions of you?
-Do you think that simply
applying the 10:13 directly to the skin, without diluting it, would make it more effective? (The Rep. suggested this
method, too)
-In order to add an element of "powerful secuality" to the female Athena Version (the 10:13), what
should a woman add....copulins? Or, would androstenone work for both genders?
-When you say it creates a sense of
harmony, empathy and understanding, does the Athena 10:13 create these feelings in the wearer (the female) or in the
person exposed to the Athena 10:13 (the male)? In other words, does it act on the wearer or on the 'smeller'?
I
really appreciate your thoughts, SurfsUp. I myself have always thought there was more to Cutler's story (and
formula) than DHEA and slick marketing. I'm certainly willing to try her product out on myself, but I enjoy getting
input from everyone here about the product.
In closing, if Athena 10:13 creates the emotional intimacy and bonding,
and if it can be successfully paired with a sexual stimulator such as androstenone or copulins, it seems to me that
it is THE mix to wear, if one wants to establish a longterm romantic relationship woth someone as opposed to a
friendship or one-night-stand.
Interesting. Thanks!!
Geez, pardon my typos!
I'm typing faster than my abilities, apparently!
And what have those researchers said?
If I become aware
of a relevant study I will post it. As I said, I know of no evidence directly supporting DHEA as a pheromone. It's
just a question worth asking, and your having had many discussions about it with scientists support that worth. But
the alluded conversation was an off the record chat during a business -- rather than academic -- discussion, which I
agreed to keep entirely confidential. The person was speculating, but works with scientists you'd well recognize
(at least one with Erox ties).
LH change is indeed one valid measure of interest, due to its history within general mammalian
research.
Such sexual dimorphisim is indeed suggestive, though is not a necessary precondition for a
biochemical affecting attraction/arousal (whether or not someone would define that evocative chemical as a
"pheromone"). But is there not a parallel dimorphism with DHEA/progesterone (or even DHEA/pregnenolone, since it's
not all converted to these two) production and blood ratios?
I'm not sure how this fits in with the rest of the discussion. So maybe I'm missing something. But
as I've always said, if you had to reduce attraction (much less "learning" in general -- another can of
worms -- which requires neither sight nor smell) to two specific senses (i.e., sight and smell); and if you
had to further reduce it to an either/or choice between them, then I'd of course choose
olfaction, but only on the grounds that the pheromonal reaction is more fundamental and primal (e.g., doesn't
require conscious recognition to have some impact on emotions -- not that all visual processing
requires conscious mediation; and not that emotions aren't also determined by other influences -- important
distinctions for the bigger picture), just like you do. But do you feel that both reductions are necessary,
and sets in relief "the only" interesting issue to look at (i.e., probable, partial conditioning of
some of the visual attraction reponse by pheromones, to be scientifically responsible about the language of
our conclusions)? Why?
The secrecy is definitely a problem, scientifically
speaking. But what specifically is flawed in her premises and research, besides her secrecy? Do you have a problem
with the methodology; or the analysis? If so, what?
Last edited by DrSmellThis; 03-17-2005 at 03:17 PM.
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
You could always edit.
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
And edit I will. I'm new
here and didn't realize that the "go advanced" button would allow editing!
5 weeks of exclusive and faithful use of
Athena 10:13
At this point I might be able to contribute a little to this thread by reporting my
experiences with Athena 10:13. As I mentioned before, it was the first pheromone I discovered, so after a big sigh,
I plopped down the $99.
I mixed it with 1/2 oz of Estee Lauder's Intuition. So that's a pretty strong
concentration, albeit not oil. I used it faithfully every night - 2 dabs - right before sitting down on the couch
with my husband. Both on my pulse points and on my hair, depending on the night. My goal was to make him more open
and "kinder" and hopefully that was going to lead to more euhm... more sex. Did I notice any improvement with my
husband? No. Did I notice a change in other people? Yes. Within those 5 weeks of daily (and exclusive) use of Athena
10:13 he was told on 4 or 5 different occasions how "lucky" he is to have me. To the point where he is now wondering
why people keep telling him that! A gay male friend of ours all of a sudden started calling me "cutie" and "cutie
pie" etc. A female gay person I know started staring at me in aerobics class.
I wrote an e-mail to the Athena
people complaining about lack of results and they said that sometimes it takes 4 to 6 weeks to become effective.
They did not offer any explanation, but said that they are basing that on comments from customers.
Based on her
study results, I am assuming that her product is heavy on -nol. Aimed at getting affection and attention for women,
and especially menopausal women or women who have had a hysterectomy (I am neither). After 5 weeks of lukewarm
results, I bought an array of new products here. My strategy will be to go heavy on -nol and copulins with very
little to no -none and definitely no -rone.
OK - Now here's a newsflash. Yesterday my second combo shipment
arrived and I ended up slathering a little of everything on me. That would be: SOE unscented, NPA/w, PI/w some PCC
and maybe some Pherlure as well. Just a little of everything. It was just for the fun of it, cause my husband just
had surgery and I certainly wasn't expecting any action while he is on Percasset etc.
BUT... he always sleeps
with his back to me. Complains that I almost push him out the bed because I'm always moving over to him. Well guess
where we were when I woke up this morning! Way over to my side of the bed with him turned over to me! I now know the
uncomfortable feeling of almost being pushed out of bed! Now that's a first!
Will I buy more Athena 10:13
after this bottle is gone? It'll depend on the results of the new stuff. I have nothing against it, but it is quite
expensive. When my original 1/2 oz was half gone, I added more perfume to make it a full 1/2 oz again. So I'm at a
diltuion of 1 bottle of A10:13 to 1 oz of perfume. They recommend anywhere from undiluted to a 2 oz dilution. I will
start putting it on top of an oil base from now on. I need to compare this product to another one that is heavy on
-nol. Hope this info helps.
You would be amazed at how differently
individuals respond
I'd try one of the Athena and one of something else. Be careful once the seal is
broken on the Athena bottle it will evaporate very quickly. I always keep it in the freezer once the aluminum
sealing ring has been pulled off. Much may be lost if it is mixed with a fragrance unless you follow tight
procedure.
In one experiment I poured out an entire bottle onto a cloth and had a group of men take a deep
breath from the cloth. Their responses were extremely diverse. Some barely registered anything, others experienced
powerful druglike state shifts. The effect was absolutely immediate, within 1 second of inhalation. Maybe some guys
are high oxytocin releasers, others aren't.
Adding copulins would be an excellent idea, as would
experimenting with the many products available here. You might find a good ratio with NPA, even adding in Chikara
could possibly produce the extra kick you want.
You must accept the reality that not everyone is a high
affect passionate lover waiting to happen. Or, sometimes nothing will happen for a while then the right combination
of circumstances will occur and that person will do something surprising...
Example, I wore a nice dose, not
too strong of an Athna + Beta-Nol + Dienone mixture out to the theater tonight, fairly small place, old building,
Kathleen Turner and Bill Irwin doing their thing.... a serious adult audience, sophisticated people.... there was a
nice subtle mood shift in the others around, something you learn to spot with experience, during intermission in the
crowded lobby you might notice people drifting a little mellower, a patience with others, not much agression around
the refreshment stand.... kinda humanizing, softening the edges...
What I should have said was the active
ingredient will
evaporate quickly, leaving you with a bottle filled with alcohol. Never, never leave
an unstoppered bottle open at room temperature or it is buh-bye expensive pheromone molecules. Wet your fingertip
with it and put in someplace where it won't all go away too fast. Armpits are excellent, designed by nature to be
phero spreaders, some streaks here and there....
Do you think it's best
to put the Athena 10:13 into oil despite that the Athena folks advised against it?
If I put it on straight (and
stored the remainder in the freezer) how long would the pheromone molecules last on my skin? Wouldn't they
evaporate from my skin quickly as well??
I'll experiment with the Athena 10:13, and the Athena/copulins mix. (I'm
female) I'll report my findings. Thanks again!
That's the idea behind controlled release
Exactly the issue faced by all pheromone product makers. An alcohol dissolved pheromone will produce a
strong immediate effect then rapidly fade. Unless you are in an enclosed volume where you intend to remain for a
while, this decay will look like a hyberbolic function. Recognizing this, the more clever manufacturers have used
glycols, oils, and lately a time release gel. With a release control agent or solvent, the emission of the
pheromones will be more dependent on temperature and humidity. If you take a small glass bottle (1 oz.) and fill it
about 3/4 full with a light vegetable oil, sunflower oil for example is an excellent, low odor, reasonably stable
oil, add a drop of vitamin E from a cut open vitamin E capsule (to retard rancidity), shake this until the Vitamin E
is dissolved. Let it sit until the air bubbles are gone. The pour in one vial of Athena and maybe one of women's
NPA, leaving enough air space at the top so it can be vigorously shaken... screw the cap on firmly and shake as hard
as you can for 30 seconds, then let it sit closed at room temperature for a day. Reshake it hard to make sure the
phero molecules have been absorbed by the oil carrier. Keep it in the refrigerator and away from light if you
aren't actively using it. Keep it cool and dark as possible when you are.
SurfsUp, do you think
that the Athena 10:13 does anything different, that some mixture of pheromones available here at Love-Scent cannot
do? (If so, exactly what does it do differently??)
For example, what "blend" of pheromones would a woman wear to
mimic the effects of Athena 10:13?
Thank you again!
There is a lot of overlapping and differences as
well
my suspicion is that Cutler may be the only one possibly using estratatraenol, I cannot confirm
that. Observation from over 10 years of experimenting with it suggest that it does have a distinct signature. Other
products, LaCroy, Chikara especially probably have new(er) molecules that have their own behavioral flavors. When
you're working with a strong pheromone like androstenone there isn't as great of a subtlety factor. It is very
much a top dog, hot sex, turfy material. Each manufacturer can vary the ratios and add in rare nuancing pheromones
to give the experience more depth or range. For me, straight androstenone just isn't all that interesting. A really
good formula in my book is one where you walk away with enhanced insight into the other person and yourself as well.
When you're developing your particular mix you are in fact fine tuning the formulation for what you need. Say
you're young, foolish, and need nothing more than sloppy
pimply passion at the local hooch hut there is no need
to spend weeks refining your brew. OTOH, you're in a realtionship for a while and you like what you have, however
you'd like more layers to manifest.... then you may want to take a known quantity, one of the women's formulas
here, and add a shot of beta-androstenol, which really gets communication going. You want amped up sex, wait until
right before then dab yourself with an alcohol based juice with androstenone and alpha-androstenol (lots of it !)
for passion+romance....
Women should use
androstenone?
Do the women's formulas here contain alpha-androstenol or beta-androstenol?
What exactly does
estratatraenol do, when worn by women?
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