Is there anyOriginally Posted by surfs_up
evidence that they have any bearing on the results we are seeking here?
Has anyone seen any research that
indicates what they "do"??
In
addition to the pheros that we usually discuss here, there are 5 others available from an organic chemical
manufacturer. They have alpha and beta androstadienOL (we're familiar with androstadienONE, sort of, as a newer
'mone) a beta-androsterone,the alpha has been around for a while, and a real oddball called androstTRIONE.
5 new 'mones are a daunting increase in the phero pallete. The combinations are mind boggling. Is there any
information on how these might work individually ?
Is there anyOriginally Posted by surfs_up
evidence that they have any bearing on the results we are seeking here?
Has anyone seen any research that
indicates what they "do"??
Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
--Lazarus Long
They were shown on a page with the known standard 'mones and nothing else. Their chemical structures are very
close to the classic 'mones though. They seemed to imply that they belonged to a common class of products.
What appear to be small differences to us when we look at the molecular illustration, such as "alpha" and
"beta" are only the position of one hydrogen on the third carbon atom in the ring.
For reasons well beyond
my knowledge, that position seems to be very significant for brain responses. Shulgin designed many "designer" drugs
that were variations on a similar position in the phenyethlyamine molecules. He might put a thiol group there or a
bromine atom, and he's get wildly different responses. I think on the p.e. molecules it worked out to be the #4
carbon, and on the steroids it happens on the #3 carbon, but the positioning is really similar...
There must
be some demand for these newer chemicals from the same market that buys the good old tried and true 'mones in
wholesale amounts. Why else would they make them ?
I sure would love to test some in isolation, perhaps in
groups of people, and see what the outcome is.
That´s interesting su thanks.
Bruce
has had the beta nol in stock for a while and we´ve had some feedback on it already. The beta rone sounds sounds
cool, perhaps JVK knows about it and could fill us in on it??
Do you still have the adress of the place where
you found out about these phero types? If you don´t mind could you PM me please?
CJ
Great work!
It makes sense
to try them out. I wouldn't be suprised to hear they're in some product or another already if they're
commercially available like that.
I'd be extremely suprised if -dienol (which derives from pregnenolone
via enzymatic activity) wasn't useful, for example. It's the main precursor to -nol, and can even be converted to
A1 by cornybacteria.
Hey Surfs Up: I'd like that info too, (name of the company, or whatever), if you please.
Last edited by DrSmellThis; 06-22-2004 at 12:29 PM.
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
They have a great webpage that shows all the molecular structures, full name, common name where
available, in PDF format... go to "androstenone and related products" on their webpage. They sure look like the top
of the production chain to me. I doubt they would even talk to you unless you had some strong industry credentials,
an good track record in the fragrance/perfumery business, bank references, and maybe even some DEA clearance....
could you imagine ordering 100 grams of pure androstenol. How much would that cost ? Maybe we could be all eager and
respectful and get some extra toys for our chemistry sets ?
Androstrione looks a heck of a lot like
androstenone (except it has these two extra weird oxygen atoms double bonded on the back of it. Somewhere between
androstenone and androsterone with an extra oxygen piggyback. Wonder where that takes you ?
I found them on the web too,
but the page I had found didn't have most of those listed.
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
So what's the URL then?
try:
http://www.molcan.com/and-rc.pdf
Make sure your Adobe reader is good to
go. Best to print it out and do side by side comparisons.
Is anyone doing rare, strange, or atypical
pheromones ? Fluoro-androstenone. Interesting, when Shulgin halogenated, the drug became more potent as the halogen
got bigger. Iodo or bromo phenylethylamine would put you in orbit, chloro would make you kind of spacey, and fluoro
would have no effect. Like it has to wedge into a receptor site just so to trigger a specific response.
The only thing I haven't
understood is,how do you know these would really have an effect?? Please don't get me wrong... I'm just curious.
Science is messy business ! If I have five dollars for every know it all who has told me "on good
authority" that pheromones are a hoax and don't work I would be a richer guy and i would have had much less sex.
The sex I would have had would have been a lot less interesting, too.
One a disgustingly technical note, one
summary reported that:
"Our results showed that P450c17 possesses a 16-ene-synthase activity able to
transform pregnenolone into 5,16-androstadien-3-ol, without the formation of the precursor 17-hydroxypregnenolone..,
is also able to catalyze the formation of a third class of active steroids, 16-ene steroids (including androstenol).
....Our results therefore demonstrate that human P450c17, as other enzymes of the classical steroidogenic pathway,
is involved in the biosynthetic pathway leading to the formation of androstenol. "
Turned back into English
that means that AndrostadienOL (presumably the alpha and beta varieties, although which does what to whom ?) sits
between the starting point (pregnenolone, an odorless prohormone) and one of the endpoints (androstenol)... I'm
only speculating, but I would believe that it is more probable that a middle step would be active (because it is
part of the machinery) than something that goes past an endpoint (that the body hasn't evolved to respond
to)....
I honestly don't know if these will work alone, or if they work in concert with the better known
'mones, what they smell like, and so on. I am making an inference from their structure that they are likely to do
something (hopefully FUN!)
how did people know that the ones we´re using now have an effect? People tried and tested them
The only thing I haven't
understood is,how do you know these would really have an effect?? Please don't get me wrong... I'm just curious.
and now we know
I guess the best way to find out is to try them.
This is all pretty
interesting. What strikes me is how small the differences are between all of these chemicals. The ones that we are
not using now, being just a tad different from those we _are_ using , could unlock a whole other level of effects.
Look at A1 for example - a completely different effect from any of the 'big 3'. Cool to say the least.
Also makes me wonder about that Secret
ingredient in LaCroy's stuff They are keeping it under wraps pretty well, but it would be nice to isolate it
without the -none to see it's impact on other mixes.
I'm sure that they all have an effect! The question is, is the effect to get aOriginally Posted by Star-A
woman's pantys wet, OR is it as an attractent in a bug trap.
Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
--Lazarus Long
Mones, mones, what have we gotten ourselves into?
Wondering if any of these are in Chikara
...
Yeah same here. Lately, I
have been really interested in the four new mones in Chikara and what their effects are but I suppose we will just
have to wait until its contents are released...
I've sometimes thought about
"borrowing" the GC/MS at school to analyze some of the secret ingredients. I could at least determine the weight of
them, although no clues to structure. I just don't think I could get to it without my advisor asking questions.
I'm not sure my schools machines would work too well either, all we've got is capilary columns. I don't think
those are ideal for molecules as heavy as steroids.
Also, I looked at what androgens aldrich-sigma had for sale.
They've got tons. About 8 different androstenols, alpha and beta versions with several different positions for
the -OH. I would guess that only Pherin pharmacueticals has the slightest idea what all of those could do.
Steraloids is another company with thousands of steroids that could possibly be used as pheromones. Just looking at
them overwhelms me.
I think I'm just gonna let the big companies and Bruce find the useful mones. I've got
enough things to do without testing completely new pheromones. Although I do have one idea......
Don't count on Bruce releasing theOriginally Posted by Rover The Dog
list of mones in Chikara real soon. The product is a winner from the results I've seen. Why would he want to give
his formula to his competitors? Especially after the amount of time and effort he has put into bringing Chikara to
market.
I agree with you
completely. There is no reason for Bruce to bring out the ingredients of his Chikara especially since its success.
Anyway it was just an idle hope to ease my curiousity
I'd like to know what's in it too.Originally Posted by Rover The Dog
Only speculation here. There are
probably a smaller number of major pheromones, the heavy hitters that establish the "tone"; social, sexual,
territorial. There may be also a larger number of accessory pheromones that don't do a whole lot in isolation or
their effect is subtle. Think of great wines compared with table wines. The great wines have the same basics as the
ordinary wines and they have nuances that table wines don't have. It's more than having or lacking a raw
ingredient. The ratios are all important. Could be with more sophisticated phero products you will begin to see more
refined responses too. There will always be a market for the sledgehammer 'mones as there will always be a market
for malt liquor. It get the job done. A market exists for Haut Brion too, even at $300 a bottle because it takes you
places that lesser wines don't.
I came across an essential oil product that is refined from Cannabis with
the THC removed. It is a legal perfumery ingredient that has a "monster bud" aroma. I mixed up a batch of massage
oil with a nice shot of basic pheromones (androstenone, alpha-androstenol, androsterone about 1:1:1, this is
excellent once you're done with chemistry and ready to get down to physics) and one drop of the Cannabis fragrance
in about 4 ounces of lubricant. I think I put a drop of black pepper oil in too for extra energy.
The lovely
young thing who was receiving the massage let out a long sigh and said Oh My God what is that !? I think she had
formed deep associations between the smell of Cannabis
and intense pleasure somewhere in her life. Soon she was a
molten mass of hour long orgasm. Did the odoriferous terpenes in the cannabis fragrance directly trigger something
in connection with the 'mones ? (interesting thought) or did she have a strong memory association and a Pavlovian
response ? Either way it was memorable, to say the least. Now my massage kit is prepared.
in case you
were wondering what gives Pot its unique signature
aroma:
http://www.kalyx.com/catalog/eocannabis.htm
Is it possible that any of these have an
accessory effect with human pheros ?
So I have too
much time on my hands, and sitting in front of me right now are three bottles - beta-androsterone,
androstadientrione and beta-androstadienol.
Surfs_up described alpha-androstadienol as having "a light,
uplifting, one nice shot of champagne head to it, good for rapport, hanging out and kicking back, bantering... " and
also mentioned that the beta version has a "greater hilarity factor".
I haven't seen anything on the
potential effects of trione. I would guess beta-androsterone might have similar effects to alpha-androsterone, but
don't really know what differences there might be.
I'll start experimenting soon and report back when I
have something, but I would be interested to know if there is anything to add to the above.
Hi PheroQuirk
Very interesting indeed! I am looking forward to your findings! Please keep us posted!
Visionary
Originally Posted by PheroQuirk
Researchers from Monel Chemical
Senses recently indicated that the chemical ability of a compound to elicit a luteinizing hormone (LH) response
might be the best marker for determining whether it is a pheromone. I'm sure they will be pursuing this. So far,
only androstenol has been effective in eliciting the LH response in humans. Other compounds may have less reportable
effects, though this may not necessarily mean they are not effective as pheromones. To date, however, only
androstenol has been linked both to LH change and mood change in women. Androsterone, though not shown to elicit a
hormone change, can be expected to correlate well with a more masculine scent signature--because levels are higher
in men (and higher still in men whose testosterone level is not suppressed by cortisol = fear, lack of
self-confidence).
Some evidence, which I have not yet personally seen, on the metabolism of testosterone and
its link to androstadienone levels, indicates that androstadienone is not a testosterone derivitive--as has been
reported. Besides, original research suggested it functioned via the human VNO, and the presence and/or function of
the VNO has been repeatedly called to question, while the main olfactory system has been repeately shown to process
pheromones in mammals.
I find it regretable that marketing tactics sometimes pervade the ever growing list of
what people are calling human pheromones, and continue to monitor the scientific presses for more information. I am
also reminded that more than a decade ago, a product containing squalene (a supposed mating pheromone in snakes) was
incorporated into a product marketed at "Fun parties," where ladies learn about the latest products for sexual
enhancement. In two words, squalene is "snake oil." But the marketing claims made the product sucessful.
Be
careful out there; watch for "snake oil" salesmanship. Better to use the scent of tangerine-scented sea birds--or
perhaps this idea is "for the birds." We're mammals, best bet is to use something akin to a mammalian pheromone;
one that is supported by some scientific literature.
JVK
Thanks for
the caution jvkohl.
I'm entirely prepared for the chance that these compounds are only active in pregnant
baby elephants
But my interest in dienol at least was piqued by a report by surfs_up reporting
interesting and favourable results for the alpha version. And there was no mention of the others that I could find
on this forum or on google so I thought I might as well explore further.
You may turn out to be right than
only nol acts as a pheromone that modifies human sexual behaviour. However that is not the only effect that I am
interested in and it seems clear that other pheromones can have useful and powerful effects and may be worth
incorporating into a mix even if they do not directly affect LH.
Curious to know if anyone has any knowledge
of or speculation regarding what trione or beta-rone might do...
Last edited by PheroQuirk; 12-07-2005 at 10:16 PM.
alpha or beta refer to the orientation of a hydroxyl group (-OH), where in androsterone this is
a double bonded oxygen (=O) which doesn't exhibit the alpha/beta toggle... I was curious about what woyuld happen
if you went the other way and took an estratatreanol and tried to convert it to estratatreanone, but you'd lose one
of the double bonds in the steroid ring in the process... whatever they've got going in the new A314 is pretty damn
interesting, I have no clue what this may be... one wonders about the possibilities of -amines, the -OH could be
substituted with a -NH2 that probably would have the alpha/beta toggle, and you would have andronstenamine....
nature is filled with oderiferous amines, bacteria love to play with them, vaginas owe some of their inimitable
scent characteristics to them...
well a314 is an interesting
product but im all out have tested it and will be moving onto some of the other products next. There are a cuple of
others sold here i havent used in a while so i guess thats on my new year shopping list
-Rone can come in several forms, there is only one NONE, OK, my bad,
should have read more carefully...
well, so far no
noticeable useful effect I have seen with trione used alone or with an A314/PI combo. it does however seem to be
effective at giving me and people around me very bad headaches ;( i might try again at a lower dose.
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