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  1. #1
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Default Just say no... human VNO

    visit-red-300x50PNG
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract


    n
    " In humans, the VNO does not exist, at least not in its complexity."

    What do you think this means to

    people who market pheromones based on human VNO research/reactions?

    JVK

  2. #2
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    According to the abstract:



    ...Histochemically, [the nasal passage] is lined with a remarkable pseudostratified epithelium, the nature

    and significance of which are still unclear. Recent studies indicate that pheromone-like compounds are most likely

    registered at the level of olfactory receptor cells, rendering the chemical information system more independent of

    specific organ structures.
    Do you think this means that people who have their VNOs surgically removed

    are still capable of responding to enhanced pheromone signatures?

    Have any studies been done on pheromone

    receptivity in people with modified or removed VNO versus people with unaltered VNOs?

    I ask because I may end up

    having some sinus surgery and I have been wondering what sort of impact that might have on me.

    Just curious, at

    this stage.

  3. #3
    Phero Dude slickracer's Avatar
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    hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............

    intresting.

    there has to be something thats picking up these pheromones tho, VNO or not.

  4. #4
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendly1
    Have any

    studies been done on pheromone receptivity in people with modified or removed VNO versus people with unaltered

    VNOs?
    None that I know about, and not likely to be done since the focus of human pheromone

    research is moving rapidly away from the issue of the human VNO. However, this could easily end up being decided by

    judge or jury in cases that seek financial "damages" from plastic surgeons who are not familiar with the concept of

    human pheromones.

    JVK

  5. #5
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slickracer
    hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............ intresting.

    there has to be something thats picking up these

    pheromones tho, VNO or not.
    Yes, otherwise women would not respond with the typical mammalian

    luteinizing hormone response to axillary secretions from men, and men would not respond to copulins with the typical

    mammalian testosterone increase. I've been saying this for several

    years.

    JVK

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    Red face just 2 cents.

    everything contributes

    to why we might eat something...
    sight,smell,what we have heard about its properties,memories, not just what it

    tastes like. maybe we are picking up 'mones on several subtle layers...those aware of their sensitivity to the

    difference of each person's signiture probably see it like a 6th sense...

  7. #7
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    Question Jvk

    Quote Originally Posted by jvkohl
    Yes, otherwise

    women would not respond with the typical mammalian luteinizing hormone response to axillary secretions from men, and

    men would not respond to copulins with the typical mammalian testosterone increase. I've been saying this for

    several years.

    JVK
    JVK, in your experience

    is it possible to control the amount of testosterone increase, or is it individual no matter how much

    pheromone you use to increase it? same with leutinizing hormone......

  8. #8
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    Any increase will be affected

    by natural feedback loops.

    For example.

    Increase testosterone -> increases estrogen -> turns down

    testosterone production.

    LEF sells some products that can block the conversion but some other feedback loop seems

    to kick in after several months and they stop working.

    Clearly females periods falling into sync indicates some

    airborne chemical having a major physiological effect.

    Pheremones may not work.
    Or they may not work on some and

    work well on others.
    Or the products that claim to have pheremones may really be water.

    ---
    However... you can

    TEST your testosterone and free testosterone levels with blood tests.

    1) Go to LEF and buy the appropriate test.

    Take the form they send you to a local blood draw site which will send it to QUEST diagnostics. There is your base

    level.

    2) Buy another test. Apply copulins. Get the test done again (at the same time of day). Are your

    testosterone levels different?

    I recommend LEF since it is an inexpensive way to get blood tests and you won't

    have to argue with your doctor or insurance company about them.

    (LEF = life extension foundation--

    www.lef.org)

    You will have some tricky bits.

    1) exercize effects testosterone.
    2) If you are

    around sexy women flirting with you, that is going to raise your testosterone level.

    So make sure that those

    conditions are the same for both tests.

    Love to hear your results.

  9. #9
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lor
    JVK, in your experience

    is it possible to control the amount of testosterone increase, or is it individual no matter how much

    pheromone you use to increase it? same with leutinizing hormone......
    The hormonal changes are

    referred to as unconscious effects, as in a cause and effect relationship. Pheromones "effect" hormones, and this is

    not something that it consciously controlled. Pheromones also have an unconscious affect on behavior that is

    associated with their effect on hormones. This "affect" is unlike the cause and effect relationship between

    pheromones and hormones. Their "affect on behavior" can be consciously controlled.

    All this is detailed

    further in a review article that will be published in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality later this

    year.
    I'm fairly certain that the review will help clarify issues like this, though it is very

    technical.

    JVK

  10. #10
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxo-texas
    You will have

    some tricky bits.

    1) exercize effects testosterone.
    2) If you are around sexy women flirting with you,

    that is going to raise your testosterone level.

    So make sure that those conditions are the same for both

    tests.
    Testosterone levels peak at approximately 0730 and hit their low point at approximately

    1930. So, if the time of sample collection varies (as it usually does) your results may mean nothing, despite

    attempts to control for other variables--like stress, food ingestion, psychotherapeutic drug use, etc. To attempt to

    show individually significant changes would be very difficult. That's why researchers try to involve as many study

    participants as they can find/fund, and also attempt to control the variables. Simply put, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!

    Or, if you do, realize that you might need to read a few books on the topic before you can interpret the results,

    which are virtually meaningless at the individual level. On the other hand, it's not a bad idea for men over 50 to

    have their testosterone level checked if they're having specific symptoms like fatigue, low sex drive, etc. Studies

    are now finding many more instances of low testosterone levels than were predicted only a few years

    ago.

    JVK

  11. #11
    Full Member luxveritas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jvkohl
    Pheromones

    "effect" hormones, and this is not something that it consciously controlled. Pheromones also have an unconscious

    affect on behavior that is associated with their effect on hormones. This "affect" is unlike the cause and effect

    relationship between pheromones and hormones. Their "affect on behavior" can be consciously controlled.
    This is what I just realized through testing of EW. You have said it in a much more eloquent manner. The complex

    psychological evaluations people have made about different pheromones seem to be an over kill. Pheromones cause

    hormone changes. Hormone changes affect behavior but are only one component in the grand scheme of things.
    Last edited by luxveritas; 06-06-2006 at 06:42 PM.
    24 year old, good looking, white guy SOE+NPA works like a charm
    Chikara no results nice scent
    Pherlure cant wear it; strong scent headache
    AA314 good stuff
    NPA girls get frisky, stinks
    A7 almost as good as NPA
    SOE legit

  12. #12
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    Smile really interesting!

    You will

    have some tricky bits.

    1) exercize effects testosterone.
    2) If you are around sexy women flirting with you,

    that is going to raise your testosterone level.

    So make sure that those conditions are the same for both

    tests.

    Love to hear your results.
    maxotexas,
    i wonder if a sexy woman flirts with me, and i am a

    girl, will it still raise my testosterone level .....
    All this is detailed further in a

    review article that will be published in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality later this year.
    I'm fairly

    certain that the review will help clarify issues like this, though it is very technical.

    JVK
    thanks

    jvk,looking forward to it (and hoping i can wrap my head around the technicalities)

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    That would be an interesting

    study to observe, Lor.

    Jvk,
    Yes- I'm well aware of the daily cycle. I'm a teste cancer survivor and the one

    cowboy finally got tired last year so I'm using androgel for supplementation.
    It worked *fabulously* (anxiety was

    gone, night sweats gone, fuzzy thinking gone, and felt like a unicorn again). Then my doctor lowered the

    prescription when I went on Medco. So I argued it with him and went in *late* in the day for that particular blood

    test.

    And as I said above in my parent post "Get the test done again (at the same time of day)."

    My point is

    this. If copulins raise levels by 50% very quickly- then you should be able to see a very noticable affect if you

    control for the other variables (hell- get two tests on the same day with copulins between them).

    However, all

    your points are valid-- there are many factors involved and a given person's sample size == 1 person as opposed to

    a formal study with 100 people that controls for a lot of variables.

    For now.. I was willing to drop 160 on

    products here and I'm testing them out. I think I've seen some results. I'm a bit interested in adding NPA and

    a copulin next (the thought being to use the copulin once things are fairly well underway to intensify things).

  14. #14
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lor
    maxotexas,
    i wonder

    if a sexy woman flirts with me, and i am a girl, will it still raise my testosterone level

    .....
    Theoretically, in women, the effect of pheromones from the opposite sex on hormones is on

    luteinizing hormone/follicle stimulating hormone ratios that favor increased estradiol levels that prompt a

    luteinizing hormone surge accompanied by an increase in testosterone -- all of which depend somewhat on menstrual

    cycle phase in the absence of oral contraceptive or hormone replacement use.

    All of the above contribute to

    men's overall lack of knowledge about the complex behaviors of typical or atypical women. By the middle of next

    week I will have figured out all of women's behavior, I think. But I've been thinking like that for many years and

    through three marriages.

    JVK

  15. #15
    Full Member luxveritas's Avatar
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    so testosterone based

    pheromones indirectly increase testosterone in women?
    24 year old, good looking, white guy SOE+NPA works like a charm
    Chikara no results nice scent
    Pherlure cant wear it; strong scent headache
    AA314 good stuff
    NPA girls get frisky, stinks
    A7 almost as good as NPA
    SOE legit

  16. #16
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxveritas
    so testosterone

    based pheromones indirectly increase testosterone in women?
    I wouldn't say that, but it's okay if

    you do. The complexity of the issues involved allow for no direct conclusion without further study. For example,

    which testosterone-based pheromones and which women, under what conditions?



    JVK

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    I don't have the references handy,

    but recent studies have found that in humans the pheromone receptors have migrated to the olfactory epithelium.



    This was demonstrated through several methods:

    - pheromone receptor RNA was found in olfactory cells

    there, showing that the receptors are being produced in that area

    - studies were done with people who had

    naturally blocked (with polyps) or artificially blocked olfactory centers, and it was verified that they did not

    exhibit the hypothalamus pheromone response as shown via PET scans

    - this test was repeated on people whose

    VNO was naturally or artificially blocked, but whose olfactory epithelium was not blocked, and it was verified that

    they did still exhibit the same hypothalamus pheromone response as people with no blockages.

    Those seem like

    rather conclusive results. Forget the VNO (at least in humans)!

  18. #18
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    By the middle of next week

    I will have figured out all of women's behavior, I think. But I've been thinking like that for many years and

    through three marriages.
    If you manage to pull this off and figure out a way to control the urge to

    shop,men all over the world will worship the ground you walk on.
    "The wages of sin is death.But after taxes it's just sort of a tired feeling realy." -Ellen DeGeneres

  19. #19
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    Time for a bump.

  20. #20
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    Since june,
    I've

    experimented with a314 (nothing super obvious).
    I've become absolutely convinced SOE is the real deal.
    Same for

    A4.2 or NPA (i.e. -none).
    Same for copulins (EW) on me.

    I'm experimenting currently with Beta-Est with good

    results during gf's period (she reports her discomfort goes away when she's around me).

  21. #21
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tounge
    Time for a

    bump.
    Also time for some others to do google searches and find:

    "Pursuant to a joint venture

    between Demeter Fragrance Library, Inc. and Human Pheromone Science, Inc., we present the Natural Attraction

    Collection by Demeter Fragrance Library, demonstrating the powerful combination of aromachology and synthetic human

    pheromones."

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    If the joint venture led to a

    product "spinoff" why is there no mention of the human VNO in how "Natural Attraction" products

    work?
    --------------------------------------------------------------

    If a new marketing ploy drops the old

    VNO marketing ploy, doesn't this say something about marketing ploys in general? Or maybe I'm just biased by

    "real" science.

    JVK


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    i think both approaches could be

    interpreted as marketing ploys, those that believe it to exist and include it in thier marketing and those that

    advocate that it doesnt and include it in thier marketing

  23. #23
    Kodachrome Forever! Gegogi's Avatar
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    The odd thing is, most consumers

    don't give rat's tail about the how and why of human pheromone receptors. I don't! Okay, maybe a little. They

    only care if the product works for them, i.e., enhances their social and sexual status. So weren't not talking

    about any real market advantage for the lack or presense of a VNO.

    Most marketing is a massive waste of

    resourses. I TiVo out every TV ad and automatically ignore magazine, web and roadside ads. I bet most new pheromone

    users rarely get further than "gets you laid 'n respected at work" in product ad copy. Further info about the VNO

    or receptors in our main olfactory organs will only be read by a few rather geeky consumers.
    "I'm just a dirty hornytoad" -Gegogi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gegogi
    Most marketing

    is a massive waste of resourses. I TiVo out every TV ad and automatically ignore magazine, web and roadside ads. I

    bet most new pheromone users rarely get further than "gets you laid 'n respected at work" in product ad copy.

    Further info about the VNO or receptors in our main olfactory organs will only be read by a few rather geeky

    consumers.
    what is tivo?

    i hate tv ads, web ads are just as annoying, magazine ads...well

    depends on the ad, i like photography and style, so a nice chick in a nice dress is eye candy in a glossy mag is ok,

    and a magazine is not as intrusive as audio or visual marketing. the amount of garbage that gets thrown at us via tv

    and radio etc makes me sick!

    i havnt turned on my tv in years, all these people buying these fancy tv sets,

    giant plasma etc etc, for what??? to watch rubbish tv ads....and game shows...

    i think im going to become a

    hermit and leave society...

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    the vno is as defunt as tits on

    a male, even if it exists, big deal!!!!! it doesnt tickle my fancy.

  26. #26
    Phero Enthusiast tenaciousBLADE's Avatar
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    Arrow For people in search of some order - reguarding the VNO

    This is a long post, so if you're not interested in the order offered at the

    title, just skip to the part saying "Anyway, I DO have my own question".
    maxo-texas, please do not skip



    Originally posted by maxo-texas:

    I'm experimenting currently with Beta-Est with good

    results during gf's period (she reports her discomfort goes away when she's around me).
    Didn't I see you

    post on some other thread, that you discovered

    it was androstAnone you've been testing?

    Originally posted by

    maxo-texas:

    Sigh.

    I've been testing this too and thought it was beta-est.

    The results have been

    very good- especially around her period. From her feedback, her discomfort goes away very quickly after she gets

    together with me since i've started wearing this around her.
    I'm just asking for other reader's sake...

    no harm ment



    Some order for the VNO curious:
    Now, I've seen three different

    threads discussing if the VNO is a functional or non-functional organ. I may be wrong, but IMHO, some people might

    need some order here, and I find no better time than the now, to organize, so...

    ecxept for this current thread,

    I've seen one specific post, that is (currently) the last one on the second thread talking about this, AND at the

    same post there's a link to

    the third thread talking

    about this topic. Here's that post:
    Originally posted by jvkohl, on a thread named

    Hot Damn, Androstanone!:

    Research

    results have repeatedly shown that what has been repeatedly referred to as the human VNO is merely some vestigial

    pit(s) that are not connected to anything and not necessary for induction of pheromonal effects in humans. Non-human

    animal studies also show that the mammalian VNO is not necessary. I've cited several studies (recent) in postings

    to "Pheromone Research." If you want to debate the issue, its time to cite any recent study for support of this

    long-outdated conceptualization of how pheromones work. And perhaps you will

    declare any marketing interests you might have that focus attention on the VNO.



    JVK



    Originally Posted by Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)
    JVK, check out my responses to

    the initial posting on androstanone. It is proven to act at the VNO. (although I know you dispute the relevance of

    the VNO, I strongly beg the differ)



    http://www.love-scent.com/for

    um/sh...t=androstanone

    Don't be mad people... I was simply reading all these and

    thought it might help other readers a great deal, if they get some order



    Anyway, I do have my

    own question.


    JVK... I personally, have not the slightest background about the VNO. Before reading in

    the L-S forums, I had no idea the VNO is even a word, or it even existed. Back then I couldn't care less.
    But now

    that I've read all three of the mentioned threads, I'm very curious about it. It does seem to mean something

    whether it's functional or not.

    So I ask you this:
    Assuming that indeed, the VNO is a NON-functional organ

    (btw, in that case, I recon that it's a physical remnant of a time when it did work?)...

    How

    DO pheromones work, if not through the VNO?
    And I'll be more specific, just to prevent a missunderstanding

    of the question, or an answer which concerns only a variation of the question (as this question can be interpreted

    in many ways):
    • How does our sense of smell, input into our brain, the pheromonal signature of another? (be

      that signature as it may)
    • Is it our brain that separates the signature into different type of pheromones, and

      tells us what they are? Or is it rather that the different pheromones are percieved (i.e. inputed) separatly; and if

      so: How?
    • You mentioned before, if I'm not mistaken, that the pheromones work (in some levels at least), without

      a thing to do with their smell (nor the percievers' sense of smell).
      If so, am I to understand that the nose, and

      any type of smell-sensatory we might have & I might not be aware of), can sense not only smell, but other types of

      chimical compounds & their construction (such as pheromones & others)?
      [I SO want the answer for this to be a "Yes"

      ].
    • Feel more than free to add any other informarion you might feel to be relevant to the question. But

      please do try and answer the sub-questions mentioned.
    JVK, I want to thank you for keeping this debate alive,

    and trying to answer with sciense & reason
    I really appritiate you reading this far (that goes out to anybody

    still reading this lol). And anybody who can give me some sensable, understandable, and reasonable answers...

    PLEASE... do

    This topic is way interesting. I, personaly, thank averybody here that gives (or has given)

    some answers\questions\views on the matter

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    Phero Enthusiast tenaciousBLADE's Avatar
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    Arrow Just noticed - I left one out

    Didn't see it before, but here it

    is:
    http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=

    1695



    And guys, about ads... I agree with bonzies' approch... I don't even own a tv. I just see

    whatever cultural candy I want on my comp. Like Samurai Champloo for example
    I do wish I'd have a plasma

    for my comp. though lol.

    And gegogi, I don't really care about the VNO much either... as for the `mone ptoducts

    out there.
    But I AM interested in it scientificaly. Aren't you?

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    But I AM interested in it

    scientificaly. Aren't you?
    Nope. Well maybe mildly curious. I try to spend my main energy making music,

    images and love...
    "I'm just a dirty hornytoad" -Gegogi

  29. #29
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    my head hurts after reading thro

    some of those articles but my understanding is much higher now then when i started using pheromones so good work

    jvkohl

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    Phero Enthusiast tenaciousBLADE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gegogi
    Nope. Well

    maybe mildly curious. I try to spend my main energy making music, images and love...
    LOL... Nice one...
    I

    might start doing the same

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