The art of "SEDUCTION"...how do certain things work SO WELL...

[handtohandking]

Our

civilized behavoir is really a pretty thin veneer over our animal behavoirs. If we can gain an understanding of that

part of our reactions, seduction may take on a whole new aspect; approaching the subconcious mind.

Exactly

what I was getting at. This whole "civilized" mentality, at least to me, is just a diluted form of our natural

animal instincts. Everything is still the same as it was 250,000 years ago for us; it's just that time changes,

circumstances change, the environment changes, but WE DON'T. We still go through elaborate courtship rituals

(flirting, dating, flowers, candy, etc), choose our lifemates (marriage), but our animal side suggests we spread our

seed as much as possible (divorce, infidelity, premarital sex). Our most primal goal is still to reproduce (sex =

childbirth, "settling down with wife and kids", "that baby is so cute, I want one!"). If we want to get even more

technical here, what is "love"? It would be rather terrible to translate "love" into some evolved form of natural

instinct, but...

[belgareth]

If we

want to get even more technical here, what is "love"? It would be rather terrible to translate "love" into some

evolved form of natural instinct, but...

You could make a good argument for love being an evolved trait

that was/is needed to provide a stable home to raise children, increasing the likelyhood of them growing to

reproductive age. If that is true, The divorce rate and the number of single parent families would tend to

invalidate what we have been saying about our animal natures though. Unless you choose to call single parent

families abnormal. In that case, the percentage of abnormality within our species is increasing at a frighteningly

fast rate.

[handtohandking]

If that

is true, The divorce rate and the number of single parent families would tend to invalidate what we have been saying

about our animal natures though. Unless you choose to call single parent families abnormal. In that case, the

percentage of abnormality within our species is increasing at a frighteningly fast rate.

Interesting, I never quite thought about divorce rate/single parent homes and their large increase in our

"advanced" society. Now that I ponder on it a little bit, would I be wrong if I said...the state of mankind is at

the most crucial crossroads it's ever been at RIGHT NOW? Centuries, decades, hell even MONTHS ago a lot of stuff

going on in the world today would be deemed unacceptable, yet I see that society is simultaneously becoming more

free-spirited and more accepting at the same time, which in the end can only lead to disaster. Mankind has lasted

this long because there were rules, there were guidelines, there was a structure. Yes, many things we consider to be

"rights" or "freedoms" today were outlawed or considering taboo even a short time ago, but let's get back to the

whole primeval perspective...We CANNOT let everyone do whatever they want, because there is then no structure, and

chaos ensues...

I'm still trying to form this whole hypothesis as I've just started forming it right now, but

it's like in the Bible with Noah's Ark all over again. I'm still not quite sure what I'm trying to say...Is our

advanced intelligence being overpowered by our own animal instincts right now, producing a volatile combination?

Prophecies of the Apocalypse don't seem too off at this time. Just like when the Earth was flooded for 40 night and

40 days, it's like as "advanced" our civilization has become in terms of technology, our mindstates are as primal

as ever, maybe even more so than in the past...Nuclear weapons + "grunt grunt me want me want" = NOT GOOD...

I

apologize for bringing up Armageddon in my post...

[belgareth]

Interesting, I never quite thought about divorce rate/single parent homes and their large

increase in our "advanced" society. Now that I ponder on it a little bit, would I be wrong if I said...the state of

mankind is at the most crucial crossroads it's ever been at RIGHT NOW? Centuries, decades, hell even MONTHS ago a

lot of stuff going on in the world today would be deemed unacceptable, yet I see that society is simultaneously

becoming more free-spirited and more accepting at the same time, which in the end can only lead to disaster. Mankind

has lasted this long because there were rules, there were guidelines, there was a structure. Yes, many things we

consider to be "rights" or "freedoms" today were outlawed or considering taboo even a short time ago, but let's get

back to the whole primeval perspective...We CANNOT let everyone do whatever they want, because there is then no

structure, and chaos ensues...

I'm still trying to form this whole hypothesis as I've just started forming it

right now, but it's like in the Bible with Noah's Ark all over again. I'm still not quite sure what I'm trying

to say...Is our advanced intelligence being overpowered by our own animal instincts right now, producing a volatile

combination? Prophecies of the Apocalypse don't seem too off at this time. Just like when the Earth was flooded for

40 night and 40 days, it's like as "advanced" our civilization has become in terms of technology, our mindstates

are as primal as ever, maybe even more so than in the past...Nuclear weapons + "grunt grunt me want me want" = NOT

GOOD...

I apologize for bringing up Armageddon in my post...

We can debate armageddon endlessly but I

don't really believe we are on the verge of it. On the other hand I do agree about our civilization being on the

cusp of titanic social events. Saying we need more rules and controls is really not the answer. Instead, it is the

result of (please excuse me) short-sighted thinking.

It's a common misunderstanding, we make a rule to prevent

something or to cause something. That improves our society, right? First you have to enforce that law which requires

an increase in manpower and increases the burden on the citizenry. With our current set of laws and requirement our

society is taxed more than 50% of production, the majority being on the backs of the poor and middle class segments

of society. Adding to that only increases disenchantment with the government. If you don't continue to increase law

enforcement manpower, laws are not obeyed. As people become accustomed to not having to obey the law, contempt for

all laws builds until you reach a crises situation. That results in anarchy and death.

Throughout our lives, we

have had more and more responsibility taken away from us by laws written to enforce behavoir. As the number of laws

increased the number of instances of breaking the law have increased. Look at the drug laws in this country or

prostitution or gambling or a myrid of other laws and tell me how well we obey unenforceable laws. I can make an

argument that the very laws that were created to stop the drug traffic have not only been a hopeless failure, they

have resulted in the proliferation of both organized crime and street crime. Even those who write the laws don't

obey them!

Another scenerio: Start at pre-school and teach children to make decisions for themselves. Teach them

right from wrong, give them plenty of time and love. THEN MAKE THEM SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS. Do it

every time and do it publicly. Teach them honestly and give them responsibility every day. Yeah, it would take time

to implement. Try it with a small group of say a thousand children. I'll bet that the majority will grow up to be

the best possible citizens you could ask for. As they grow up and raise their own children, those values will be

passed on, especially if they continue to be taught that way in school.

How does this relate to human sexuality?

Our sexuality is a basic part of who and what we are and what we have been taught all our lives. Many forms of

impotence, frigidity, infidility and family violence are products of our declining society. Sexual freedom comes

with a lot of strings attached. What better environment for love than a society free of the games and repression

that we have now? What business does the government have making laws about who you can marry, whether it has to be a

conventional relationship, gay, triads, etc.

[handtohandking]

We can

debate armageddon endlessly but I don't really believe we are on the verge of it. On the other hand I do agree

about our civilization being on the cusp of titanic social events. Saying we need more rules and controls is really

not the answer. Instead, it is the result of (please excuse me) short-sighted thinking.

It's a common

misunderstanding, we make a rule to prevent something or to cause something. That improves our society, right? First

you have to enforce that law which requires an increase in manpower and increases the burden on the citizenry. With

our current set of laws and requirement our society is taxed more than 50% of production, the majority being on the

backs of the poor and middle class segments of society. Adding to that only increases disenchantment with the

government. If you don't continue to increase law enforcement manpower, laws are not obeyed. As people become

accustomed to not having to obey the law, contempt for all laws builds until you reach a crises situation. That

results in anarchy and death.

Throughout our lives, we have had more and more responsibility taken away from us

by laws written to enforce behavoir. As the number of laws increased the number of instances of breaking the law

have increased. Look at the drug laws in this country or prostitution or gambling or a myrid of other laws and tell

me how well we obey unenforceable laws. I can make an argument that the very laws that were created to stop the drug

traffic have not only been a hopeless failure, they have resulted in the proliferation of both organized crime and

street crime. Even those who write the laws don't obey them!

Another scenerio: Start at pre-school and teach

children to make decisions for themselves. Teach them right from wrong, give them plenty of time and love. THEN MAKE

THEM SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS. Do it every time and do it publicly. Teach them honestly and give

them responsibility every day. Yeah, it would take time to implement. Try it with a small group of say a thousand

children. I'll bet that the majority will grow up to be the best possible citizens you could ask for. As they grow

up and raise their own children, those values will be passed on, especially if they continue to be taught that way

in school.

How does this relate to human sexuality? Our sexuality is a basic part of who and what we are and

what we have been taught all our lives. Many forms of impotence, frigidity, infidility and family violence are

products of our declining society. Sexual freedom comes with a lot of strings attached. What better environment for

love than a society free of the games and repression that we have now? What business does the government have making

laws about who you can marry, whether it has to be a conventional relationship, gay, triads, etc.

Hmmm...I DO

see your point, even if it sounds a little bit...anarchistic...?

However, I didn't mean "repression" when I

stated that structure was the foundation that has led humans and the rest of the universe along on its path.

A

"perfect" system, if there is one, would mean eternal efficiency. Homo Sapiens Superior never has to become extinct

if we live by this system, yet it's basically impossible because I don't believe there is such a thing as

perfection. Even the universe we exist in, as close to perfect as anything can be, will eventually come to an end,

depending on who you talk to. Basically, to achieve this neverending harmony, everyone and everything must play

their part, as robotic as it sounds...

I think you misunderstood me on my point. I'm not saying the government

should put even MORE strict guidelines, take away MORE rights, be even MORE domineering...

It's just that I

believe our own society has evolved to the point where we can NEVER be content, do you understand what I mean?

People have such insane expectations to be as "free" as possible...free from oppression, free from unhappiness, free

from RESPONSIBILITY, free from REALITY...Many people have their head in the clouds, and I'm not saying everyone has

to be ultra-serious and dedicated to some social movement or anything, but there's a lot of BS going around, and

unfortunately we are ALL falling victim to it in some form or another.

I just think every citizen has to play

their role, and it is actually difficult in many ways especially living in a place like the United States, where

opportunity and the abundance of choices overwhelms the average person and confuses them..."What AM I supposed to

do?!" The LESS "civilized" a group is, the more harmonious it is, because they all play their role in nature and the

universe. But in our everchanging world we live in, our purpose is becoming blurred...

Just my two cents...

[belgareth]

Hmmm...I

DO see your point, even if it sounds a little bit...anarchistic...?

However, I didn't mean "repression" when I

stated that structure was the foundation that has led humans and the rest of the universe along on its path.

A

"perfect" system, if there is one, would mean eternal efficiency. Homo Sapiens Superior never has to become extinct

if we live by this system, yet it's basically impossible because I don't believe there is such a thing as

perfection. Even the universe we exist in, as close to perfect as anything can be, will eventually come to an end,

depending on who you talk to. Basically, to achieve this neverending harmony, everyone and everything must play

their part, as robotic as it sounds...

I think you misunderstood me on my point. I'm not saying the government

should put even MORE strict guidelines, take away MORE rights, be even MORE domineering...

It's just that I

believe our own society has evolved to the point where we can NEVER be content, do you understand what I mean?

People have such insane expectations to be as "free" as possible...free from oppression, free from unhappiness, free

from RESPONSIBILITY, free from REALITY...Many people have their head in the clouds, and I'm not saying everyone has

to be ultra-serious and dedicated to some social movement or anything, but there's a lot of BS going around, and

unfortunately we are ALL falling victim to it in some form or another.

I just think every citizen has to play

their role, and it is actually difficult in many ways especially living in a place like the United States, where

opportunity and the abundance of choices overwhelms the average person and confuses them..."What AM I supposed to

do?!" The LESS "civilized" a group is, the more harmonious it is, because they all play their role in nature and the

universe. But in our everchanging world we live in, our purpose is becoming blurred...

Just my two

cents...

In part, I agree with you. But the problem you cite of wanting more freedom, less responsibility

is exactly what I am trying to address. It is how we were taught! Unless we change the pattern and teach our

children to be responsible members of society, our society will continue to decline. Unenforceable laws remove

personal responsibilty for one's behavoir without adding consequences. As society grows larger and more complex,

attempting to enforce laws becomes more difficult and contempt for the law increases. It's a downward spiral.

[handtohandking]

In part,

I agree with you. But the problem you cite of wanting more freedom, less responsibility is exactly what I am trying

to address. It is how we were taught! Unless we change the pattern and teach our children to be responsible members

of society, our society will continue to decline. Unenforceable laws remove personal responsibilty for one's

behavoir without adding consequences. As society grows larger and more complex, attempting to enforce laws becomes

more difficult and contempt for the law increases. It's a downward spiral.

Yes, I understand. I've

noticed this phenomenon where: 1) Sex, violence, offensive material, and other potential vulgarity stays on the

rise...while at the same time...2) "Political correctness" also stays on the rise...

HOW CAN THE TWO

CO-EXIST?!?!

How can being "PC" and being sensitive to other people's issues be enforced when the amount of

offenses being thown around is greater than ever???

I agree that people aren't being taught responsibility. And

the way this government and society is set up, they relish that fact, as they take advantage on our crippled minds

with all kinds of BS. I know TOO MANY people who expect the world handed to them. I was in very unfortunate

situations the majority of my life, yet it's funny now, because as I have learned what my responsibilities are and

have taken action, in a lot of ways I am in better shape than my friends with: a stable family, two working parents

who make six-figures a year, had their car/college paid for, still live off them for money, food, and living

accommodations, etc...

My life experiences taught me to appreciate what I have, and unfortunately most people

take things such as being able to WALK OUTSIDE, WEAR YOUR OWN CLOTHES, BE WITH YOUR FAMILY, SLEEP IN A BED...for

granted,