yep, am eager to see it!!!
yep, am eager to see it!!!
Yeah, the frogs loved is corpulent ass at Cannes. That was a big F\'ing surprise. Where\'s the puke icon when
you need it?
Straight up, Gulp.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
Frogs = French? Never heard that one.
An interesting philosophical question: At what point is a good
citizen\'s quiet support of a controversial president\'s foreign policies during an extended wartime no longer
obligatory from one\'s patriotic duty? Is it never?
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Frogs = French? Never heard that one.
An
interesting philosophical question: At what point is a good citizen\'s quiet support of a controversial
president\'s foreign policies during an extended wartime no longer obligatory from one\'s patriotic duty? Is it
never?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Huh?
If I understand your question I don\'t
think there has ever been a moral (for lack of a better word) or philosophical obligation to support a President (in
the US) during a time of war. There is a legal obligation in the form of a draft and, depending on the War, the risk
of social chastisement if you find your views are too far outside of the mainstream as happened to Lucky Lindy after
the start of WWII. As for being a Patriot, I don\'t see those that are against the war or Bush as being any less
patriotic than those that are for the war and the country seems almost evenly divided on the issue.
I don\'t
see Moore as a Leftist Patriot though. I see him as a Carpet Bagging propagandist, extraordinarily adept at
extracting serious $ from those that like to feed their minds with half truths and whole lies. Stalin referred to
this group of people as \"his useful idiots\". In his movie, Moore\'s bottom line is that Bush was the
mastermind behind 911. Millions will believe it to be true after seeing the movie. I don\'t see where that is
going to help prevent NY, CH or LA from getting hit with a dirty bomb. Unless, of course, Bush really was behind
911 and his next targets are NY, CH and LA. In which case we should get him out of office right now.
You understood me correctly the first time. I\'m glad you don\'t hold that moral you referred to, but we are
seeing quite often just that ethic in the news, as some Republicans in Congress, for example, are claiming political
critics (e.g, the New Yorker author) are putting our fighting men and women unnecessarily at risk. And Moore will
receive the criticism that he is making a \"perfect propaganda film to recruit terrorists\". Again, the same idea:
\"Criticising the president is tantamount to supporting the enemy, by degree of the severity of the criticism\",
according to such an \"ethic\".
So I\'m not asking you personally, BigGulp, but I am still asking: When
will it be OK to again criticise our government, and demonstrate to the world a real, crucial benefit of democracy
that thinking people from non-democratic cultures might be able to relate to? When the most brutal rational
criticisms of your country can emerge from within your own culture, due to accessability of information or whatever,
you\'ve achieved something special! This is democracy at near best, in action. Meanwhile, maybe our government
gets pressured to slightly alter its course, if we\'re lucky, and the world gets to observe that too, as we are
now seeing with war prison reform. Let\'s release the photos and investigation results; and then \"hand out puke
icons to everybody\"! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]~ Will this do as puke icon,
BTW?
Open societies are not about some ficticious absence of \"bad things\" (e.g., corrupt politicians and
soldiers); but rather how those open societies handle their bad things.
I will be curious to finally see the
movie and find out if that really is Moore\'s intended point (i.e., Bush simply \"masterminding 9/11\"), per
se. I think Moore is selling himself short if it indeed is, as there are other telling points to be made from
all the raw material (e.g., Bush\'s former ties to the Bin Laden family) I heard went into the documentary. He
doesn\'t need to make that limited, and \"black and white\", of a conclusion. But I agree with you that, if
it was \"masterminded\" that way, Bush should be immediately removed from office; and I would add, thrown in
prison for murder and treason, as per the transparent openness and impartiality of the American judicial system at
its best.
Pretty
cool that he won as it´s a docfilm not a `normal´ movie. As for he frog reference, it´s toal crap because the jury
consisted mainly of americans.
The one criticism I heard about this film is that it doesn´t mention anything
about Guantanamo Bay and that´s a shame imo.
CJ
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Frogs = French? Never heard that one.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> It´s an old one I´m afraid and bloody stupid and rude too I reckon ...
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Pretty cool that he won as it´s a docfilm not a
`normal´ movie. As for he frog reference, it´s toal crap because the jury consisted mainly of americans.
The one
criticism I heard about this film is that it doesn´t mention anything about Guantanamo Bay and that´s a shame
imo.
CJ
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
What I heard was that you can hardly call it a
\"documentary\", and that it is rather propaganda for Moore\'s conspiracy theories..
Well I
can´t say but either way it´s not a normal movie. I don´t even care if it is about his theories as long as it´s a
good film and we have to wait till it comes out. What are the chances that the yanks get to see it? Taking bets
now [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
Dont worry America! Go back to your Oprah your Dr Phil, Friends & Frasier...The official story of 9/11 as
promulgated by big corporate media, CNN, Fox, etc is just as they it is. Dont you go believing those radical nut
case conspiracy theorists like Michael Moore or David Icke... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
Michael Moore is a lizard too? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Well I can´t say but either way it´s not a normal
movie. I don´t even care if it is about his theories as long as it´s a good film and we have to wait till it comes
out. What are the chances that the yanks get to see it? Taking bets now
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
The movie
will be seen here CJ. We aren\'t a totalitarian state yet. I don\'t see that happening until shortly after
Hillary is elected in 2008.
Are you
sure you´re gonna get to see it? When exactly?
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Frogs = French? Never heard that one.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\"> It´s an old one I´m afraid and bloody stupid and rude too I reckon ...
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Quite correct, though I\'m not sure \"frog\" was entirely derisive. It
was applied to allies in WWII. The modern term appears to be \"Cheese-eating Surrender Monkey\". Too bad, really,
as I understand the French people are not generally in much agreement with the current government (this view gained
from Euro friends and a Parisian in a particular). Seems \"their\" corporate propaganda and \"ours\" are in
opposition these days...and if you can truly sort out all the multinationals, you\'re doing better than I
am.
As to supporting the President - no, there\'s no moral requirement to support him in particular. There is,
however a moral requirement to support fellow citizens in harm\'s way, whether you approve their situation or not.
Were it not so, there would probably be no need for puke icons.
You´re
right, the french aren´t happy with their government and neither are the germans with theirs but for internal
reasons and not for the reasons americans hate them. The british are p*ssed off with Blair too and so on...
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
You understood me correctly the first time. I\'m
glad you don\'t hold that moral you referred to, but we are seeing quite often just that ethic in the news, as
some Republicans in Congress, for example, are claiming political critics (e.g, the New Yorker author) are putting
our fighting men and women unnecessarily at risk. And Moore will receive the criticism that he is making a
\"perfect propaganda film to recruit terrorists\". Again, the same idea: \"Criticising the president is
tantamount to supporting the enemy, by degree of the severity of the criticism\", according to such an \"ethic\".
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
The \"Republicans in Congress\", and others that
criticize the protesters, have just as much right to their criticisms as those who are protesting against the
President and the war. I don\'t see anybody being thrown in jail for speaking their mind. I hear a lot of people
on the left whining about their voices being stifled but if their voices were really being stifled I wouldn\'t be
able to hear them whine. The New Yorker authors\'s article was published; yes? As are hundreds of other articles
being published every day criticizing the President; so where\'s the problem? Seems to me that freedom of speech
is alive and well in the US of A on both sides. As for Moore, I have as much right to criticize him for making a
\"Perfect Propaganda film\" as he has the right to make and SELL his film. When I criticize Moore or Clinton or
Bush I should expect to get some flames in return. If my arguments are valid maybe I\'ll change some minds. If
they\'re not, maybe somebody will change my mind.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
So I\'m not asking you personally, BigGulp, but I am still asking: When
will it be OK to again criticise our government, and demonstrate to the world a real, crucial benefit of democracy
that thinking people from non-democratic cultures might be able to relate to? When the most brutal rational
criticisms of your country can emerge from within your own culture, due to accessability of information or whatever,
you\'ve achieved something special! This is democracy at near best, in action. Meanwhile, maybe our government
gets pressured to slightly alter its course, if we\'re lucky, and the world gets to observe that too, as we are
now seeing with war prison reform. Let\'s release the photos and investigation results; and then \"hand out puke
icons to everybody\"! ~ Will this do as puke icon, BTW?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
\"When the most brutal rational criticisms of your country can emerge from within your own culture,
due to accessibility of information or whatever, you\'ve achieved something special! \" This is happening
right now all over the country Doc. Tune into Seattle\'s KIRO Radio station at 9:PM tonight and listen to Erin
Hart\'s program or Mike Webb\'s 9:PM program week nights. \"Brutal\" doesn\'t even come close to describing
the animas, vitriol and pure hatred of the Bush administration expressed by the hosts and callers on these programs.
Free speech and descent IS alive and well in Seattle, San Fran., NY and Portland too. Just go through your AM radio
dial and you\'ll find it. You don\'t have to look very hard.
As for other countries relating to
Democracy....that\'s a scary thought. As Churchill once said; \"Democracy is the worst form of government there
is. Except for every other form of government.\". Democracy is not a pretty thing to watch. By nature Democracy it
is brutal because by nature people are brutal. Read some history about the founding of the USA, the writing of the
Constitution and the forming of our Nation. What an ugly mess. Read a history of what Abraham Lincoln went through
during the Civil War. News Papers in the North as well as the South were openly calling for his
assassination. Lincoln new he would be killed before his term ended but he carried on with what he believed
in. Politics in the United States has never been pretty. NEVER.
I guess the point I\'m trying to make is
that as bad as things look right now they aren\'t even close to as bad as they\'ve been at times throughout our
history. I don\'t worry about us as a people. Left and Right will continue to piss on each other just like
we\'ve always done. I worry about the Dirty bombs though and I\'m always concerned about the Lizard People.
The [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]~ will have to do for now and I must leave and see if
I can\'t create more chaos with my last two drops of JDM and...dare I put 4 sprays of Chikara on today?
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
Some good points, BG. Dissent is certainly alive, anyway. On the other hand, so is information control, in many
ways. There are those in congress that sort of call for people\'s heads who express such dissent, rather than just
disagree. I haven\'t personally heard that Moore\'s film is BS, but that would be a shame. Good heretical
information is still challenging to come by.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Are you sure you´re gonna get to see it? When
exactly?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I would think it will take about the same amount of
time that any other successful Cannes film would take to make it\'s way through the system and out to the Theaters
here. It could happen much faster given Moore\'s connections to the Hollywood scene. I think it\'s safe to say
Moore will have an easier time getting his film shown than Gibson did with the \"Passion\". HW doesn\'t like
Gibson at all and certainly didn\'t like the subject of his last movie. HW loves Moore and the way Bush is
presented in the film, so, as they say here in the USA, \"Look for it soon in a Theater near you\".
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frogs = French? Never
heard that one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It´s an
old one I´m afraid and bloody stupid and rude too I reckon ...
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
As you already know CJ, I\'m not a very politically correct person. Screw that. That
doesn\'t mean I\'m an A-hole. I just say what\'s on my mind. I\'m the same in the real world too. I\'m not
without sensitivity and compassion though. There are words that aren\'t in my vocabulary. The \"C\" word when
referring to a woman. The \"N\" word when referring to a Black person. Etc., etc., on down the line. I don\'t
see anything particularly offensive in the term \"frog\". The French have been called a lot worse by some of the
greatest political, military and social minds history can offer up. When I use a term like that I\'m referring to
a government and not to a people. I\'m sure the French are wonderful people. I\'d never have sex with a French
women though. Having owned a French car in my past I\'m sure I wouldn\'t be able cope with all the extra
maintenance. I\'m very fond of English Girls though. Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
Post deleted by Bruce
oops! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
Post deleted by CJ01
Is that what the woman who was fired from her job for photographing the coffins to show the real toll of Iraq vs
the sanitized version brought to you by the propaganda corp embedded reporters doing; exercising her right to free
speech? Is that what the American people were doing in Nov of 2000 when the majority of people voting in this
country decided that Al Gore should be leading the government vs having the election stolen by the military junta US
Supreme Court; exercising their rights to participate in a democracy?
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
All
this from a man who believes in lizard people.
It´s
okay, don´t worry Ash, I just get bored of those terms and coming from an american makes it a bit dodgy that´s all
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Btw I´d never use the `N´word myself!
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
I\'d never have sex with a French women though
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Not sure I
would either [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The French have been called a lot worse by some of the greatest political,
military and social minds history can offer up.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> For instance, can you
name some examples? I hope you don´t mean Bush [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you sure you´re
gonna get to see it? When exactly?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would think it
will take about the same amount of time that any other successful Cannes film would take to make it\'s way through
the system and out to the Theaters here. It could happen much faster given Moore\'s connections to the Hollywood
scene. I think it\'s safe to say Moore will have an easier time getting his film shown than Gibson did with the
\"Passion\". HW doesn\'t like Gibson at all and certainly didn\'t like the subject of his last movie. HW loves
Moore and the way Bush is presented in the film, so, as they say here in the USA, \"Look for it soon in a Theater
near you\".
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> So you didn´t hear about Moores problems to get the
film shown then?
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It´s okay, don´t worry Ash, I just get bored of
those terms and coming from an american makes it a bit dodgy that´s all
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Btw I´d never use the `N´word myself!
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
I\'d never have sex with a French women though
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Not sure I
would either [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The French have been called a lot worse by some of the greatest political,
military and social minds history can offer up.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> For instance, can you
name some examples? I hope you don´t mean Bush [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Frederick The Great, Rommel, Patton, Ben Franklin, Eisenhower,
Churchill. Forgive my spelling on those names. It\'s a pretty long list actually. Those are just a few that come
to mind right now as I getting ready for the day. De Gaul was a HUGE thorn in the side of the Allies during WWII
but you can\'t fault the French people for that.
Moore\'s alleged problem with distributing his film here is
a total invention by him to help promote the film and to make the USA look like an evil monster. Our government
isn\'t going to stop the film from being seen. They can\'t. The USA is still a free country. The distribution
outlets for the films shown in the USA are all privately owned by the Hollywood crowd. Again, that\'s why Gibson
had such a hard time with the \"Passion\".
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Our government isn\'t going to stop the film from
being seen
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> That´s not what´s being said actually. I don´t think USA
is very free to be honest but that´s another subject perhaps [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
What I heard was that it´s not the government itself but rather some powerful friends (in the film industry)who
don´t want this film out especially not before the elections.
I am ken to see whether or not Bush will get elected
this time round or if he loses and just refuse to move out of the White House and carry on squating in there
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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