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  1. #1
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    Default The range of VNO

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    1-I was reading an

    article on the Kohl\'s website. It says that VNO operates differently than the nose. However the real function and

    more importantly THE RANGE of the VNO is not elaborated. Does anybody know the range of the VNO?

    2-I am confused

    because in the article it says VNO is not responsible for gathering scents, whereas in the forum I read phrases like

    \"..the -none smells like..\". If only VNO gathers the pheros, then how can one smell it?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    1-I was reading an article on the Kohl\'s

    website. It says that VNO operates differently than the nose. However the real function and more importantly THE

    RANGE of the VNO is not elaborated. Does anybody know the range of the VNO?

    2-I am confused because in the

    article it says VNO is not responsible for gathering scents, whereas in the forum I read phrases like \"..the -none

    smells like..\". If only VNO gathers the pheros, then how can one smell it?

    <hr /></blockquote><font

    class=\"post\">

    1. I don\'t know. I\'ve heard you have to be close (A few feet), but many have mentioned

    reactions from up to 20 feet. 2-20 feet is a good start...try narrowing/tweaking it from there.

    2. I think what

    they mean is that the VNO is what detects the pheros and triggers the hormonal response to it...your nose still

    smells the phero\'s scent (e.g. \"cat piss\"), though, it\'s just not responsible for recognizing the scent as

    pheromones and causing the chemical reaction that the VNO (supposedly) does.

  3. #3
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    1-I was reading an article on the Kohl\'s

    website. It says that VNO operates differently than the nose. However the real function and more importantly THE

    RANGE of the VNO is not elaborated. Does anybody know the range of the VNO?

    2-I am confused because in the

    article it says VNO is not responsible for gathering scents, whereas in the forum I read phrases like \"..the -none

    smells like..\". If only VNO gathers the pheros, then how can one smell it?

    <hr /></blockquote><font

    class=\"post\">

    1 - The real function of the VNO? It is theorised that the VNO is stimulated by some or all

    pheromones, therefore it\'s function is to sense them. I don\'t think anyone really knows the range of the VNO,

    but 10\' is a pretty good estimate (depending on temp., wind conditions and if you are inside or not). You will

    certainly see stronger reactions if you get closer.

    2 - What Pancho said, pheromones stimulate our regular

    olfactory receptors aswell. This secondary pheromone sense may have an impact on us aswell.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    I thought Kohl had a

    theory that the VNO might not be the main channel that pheromones effect in humans. Something about eliciting a

    hormonal response?

    But range of pheromone effectiveness also brings up the question, if not in a 1-on-1

    situation, can humans subconsciously distinguish where they are coming from and associate the response to that

    person? The concern being if say in a group of people, they elicit a general response, but other factors then

    contribute to who is associated with it. Maybe someone else who they are already interested in or find attractive.

    Maybe the person they are sitting next to or talking to, etc.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    There\'s some

    controversy about the human adult function of the VNO, if it has one at all. EROX scientists have built a company on

    the idea that the VNO can be the conduit for medical treatment. Others dispute that, pointing out no apparent direct

    nerve connection from the human VNO to the brain. Personally, I think the human VNO\'s there for a reason, and

    some research indicates the possibility of an electrochemical VNO-brain connection, not necessarily by direct

    enervation.

    In any case, something in the nasal area signals the human brain when exposed to certain pheros

    - the brain scans prove that. Whether the channel is through the VNO or main olfactory system probably doesn\'t

    matter too much to us phero users. Even some animals that have proven VNO function also process some pheros through

    the main scent system. I guess the important thing is that the pheros do affect our human brains.

    It\'s

    reasonable that a phero could affect the VNO and still have a noticeable smell through the main system. No reason

    for it to process only through one system or the other. In fact in mice the main system can be \'trained\' to

    respond to pheros after a successful exposure through the VNO system. Scientists have spent a good deal of time

    understanding the functions of the VNO and main system of rodents. Just starting to study humans…

    As far as

    range, Miller has argued that for humans the olfactory signals are only effective at close range. Sight is our

    long-range sense and can pick out individual attributes at a distance much better than a general scent wafting in

    the wind. Sight is reliable at a distance when smell would not be (windy condition, confusion of scents from a group

    of people, etc. )Miller therefore argues that human phero action is designed for close-range bonding and not for

    long-distance signaling. He thinks that human pheros are designed to strengthen the pair bond between couples.

    McClintock\'s finding that dienone (generated in the male armpit) improves women\'s mood, and might only do so

    when a male is present, seems to fall in line with Miller\'s theory.

    That\'s a lot of conjecture, but it

    is a nice working theory - I don\'t think anyone has specifically tested the range (which I suppose would

    translate into airborne concentration) for VNO response. EROX scientists pump pheros through a tube directly on the

    VNO to test for response - I don\'t know if anyone else is directly testing the VNO.

  6. #6
    PheroWizard oscar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    GG,

    I would

    cautiously submit that the VNO has NO \"range\" whatsoever. Molecules have got to make their way to IT, the same

    way that scent molecules have to find their way to your olfactory receptors.

    The more appropriate question would

    then be, \"What is the effective range of pheromones from their source?\"
    And that one has been debated numerous

    times.
    Do an \"All Forums\", \"All Posts\" search for \"range\".

    Oscar

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

  7. #7
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    I know FTR could smell

    -none and quite a bit of other users can as well. The majority of users can\'t pick up its scent. I think it was

    1 out of 4 can smell it? *shrug*


  8. #8
    Sadhu bjf's Avatar
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    Skyy:

    I thought it

    was 1 out of 4 that can\'t smell it...*shrug*

    BJF

  9. #9
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    1 out of 4 can NOT

    smell androsteNONE.

    Some pheromones stimulate the VNO and some do not. The Erox guys make a big point that

    -dienone is the only pheromone that stimulates the VNO sufficiently to do anything and therefore it is the only

    *real* human pheromone. They are the ones responsible for referring to aNONE as a \"pig pheromone\", but research

    has shown that aNONE doesn\'t use the pig\'s VNO to work its magic either. The effects of aNONE on pig mating

    behavior is unmistakable, but when the pig\'s VNO is surgically destroyed the dramatic reaction to ANON is the

    same. So, hey, it looks to me like aNONE works through the normal olfactory sensors and dienone works thru the VNO.

    No simple answers here, I\'d say.

    B

  10. #10
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    yay i was wrong!!

    :P

    hehe well i sorta was on the right track :P

  11. #11
    Sadhu bjf's Avatar
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    So, hey, it looks to me

    like aNONE works through the normal olfactory sensors &gt;&gt;&gt;

    I thought even those 1 out of 4 that cannot

    smell anone, it still has an affect on as a pheromone. IE, if you put a boatload of PI on a male who cannot smell

    it, he will still get in a pissed off, aggresive mood.


    Am I wrong about this?

  12. #12
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    Well, there are a

    number of explanations. One is that aNONE works thru both (or either) route, and another is that it works thru

    normal olfaction but the 1 out of 4 guys, just don\'t get a conscious signal for some reason.

    B

  13. #13
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    Default Re: The range of VNO



    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    The Erox guys make a big point that -dienone is the

    only pheromone that stimulates the VNO sufficiently to do anything and therefore it is the only *real* human

    pheromone.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Forgive me for my newbiness, but does that mean:
    1-

    none, nol, rone do not stimulate VNO but affect behavior in some other way?
    2- none, nol, rone stimulate VNO, but

    not sufficiently?
    3- There is (are) other organ(s) that is responsible for eliciting phermone behavior (attraction,

    social hits, openness eetc..) other than VNO?

    I am a bit confused here, can pheros create a reaction directly

    through the olfactory system (without VNO)? If not, then how come are we getting hits without -dienone?

  14. #14
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    Default Re: The range of VNO

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    </font><blockquote><font

    class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    The Erox guys make a big point that -dienone is the only pheromone that

    stimulates the VNO sufficiently to do anything and therefore it is the only *real* human pheromone.

    <hr

    /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Forgive me for my newbiness, but does that mean:
    1- none, nol, rone do

    not stimulate VNO but affect behavior in some other way?
    2- none, nol, rone stimulate VNO, but not

    sufficiently?
    3- There is (are) other organ(s) that is responsible for eliciting phermone behavior (attraction,

    social hits, openness eetc..) other than VNO?

    I am a bit confused here, can pheros create a reaction directly

    through the olfactory system (without VNO)? If not, then how come are we getting hits without -dienone?


    <hr

    /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Bear in mind that we don\'t completely trust the Erox guys.

    We are

    saying that pheros other than A1 may not stimulate the VNO enough to induce a reaction through that pathway,

    but our main olfaction receptors can detect the other pheros causing a reaction to happen that way.

  15. #15
    PheroWizard oscar's Avatar
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    Default VNO Debate

    I\'m going to shamelessly trot

    out an old theory of mine here. Not totally shamelessly actually, since I have corrected a few spelling errors. I

    also figured I\'d leave in the DIHL theory as it was part of the original

    post.
    _______________________________


    VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL Theories.

    Like many of you I\'ve

    read a good deal on Pheromones and the Vomeronasal Organ. Certainly not everything, but then I doubt anyone has.

    While I have no credentials that entitle me to present hypotheses, I do have this forum where I can do so

    nonetheless. Much of what I\'m about to present is conjecture, some is based on reading I\'ve done on theories

    that may have been subsequently proven or even disproven. Some is stolen direcly from you, my fellow forum members.

    I tender thanks and apologies where applicable.

    To begin, I offer a little story which, while NOT related

    directly to Pheromones, will hopefully illustrate the incredible powers of adaptivity of the human brain.

    A

    pregnant woman has a craving for lox. The dutiful father-to-be finds an all-night deli, and heroically returns home

    with the object of his wifes desires, and all is well.
    On the next routine visit to the obstetrician, insightful

    Ob/Gyn Doc asks mom-to-be if she\'s had any cravings. She relates the lox saga. The doctor states that he\'ll

    prescribe a potassium supplement, as that\'s a nutrient often depleted during pregnancy, and the craving for lox

    was likely the body\'s way of conveying this message. Lox is evidently loaded with potassium.

    If you try to

    figure out what happened here, you cannot help but come away with an incredible degree of respect for the power of

    the human brain.
    First, a message of need was transmitted. From where? A particular organ in the woman\'s body?

    An organ in the fetus? The brain of the fetus? I don\'t know.
    Next that message was received and translated into

    a practical solution by the brain, and a remedy was \"prescribed\".
    The pregnant woman had no clue that lox

    contained potassium, or that she even needed potassium, but her brain put the signal into terms that became

    workable. Her brain somehow knew that lox was a familiar means of acquiring the necessary nutrient, and thus created

    the craving.
    If she had been a primitive living in the rainforest, she might have been more likely to send her

    husband out for bananas, but perhaps in this case the mom\'s brain realized there were no all-night produce stands

    nearby.

    VNO / Olfactory Crossover

    We see a great deal of conflicting information regarding the existence

    and/or functionality of the human Vomeronasal Organ. I\'m willing to believe that we all have a fully functional

    VNO, but I also wish to present a theory that would allow for the effectiveness of Pheromones even if our VNO\'s

    were non-functional.

    What if our VNO\'s HAD begun to become mere vestigial organs at some point in our

    evolutionary past? Wouldn\'t our brains with their incredible powers of adaptability have found some way of

    creating a back-up system, a redundancy to provide the ability to utilize this feature in some way should it be

    required at some point in the future?

    I would suggest that just the smell of Pheromones will provide the

    activation of the Hypothalamus that the VNO is reputed to have an exclusive lock on. That is to say that there\'s

    a programmed response to Pheromones triggered by our olfactory sense and cross-wired to the hypothalamus, by-passing

    the VNO altogether. The programming being NOT a conditioned response but rather an input of information from one

    piece of biological hardware to another by a means that is different from the original configuration.

    They have a

    motto at the Disney company, \"If you can dream it, you can do it.\" I\'ll propose that our brains work on a

    similar premise. We cannot begin to imagine the capabilities within our heads. Or maybe we CAN.

    I cannot concede

    that in the process of our allegedly losing the use of our VNO for the purpose for which it was intended, that our

    brains didn\'t create (or ALREADY have in place) a back-up system.

    This could account for the results seen in

    the experiments where it was supposedly found that Androstenone and Androstenol don\'t activate the VNO. They may

    only trigger Hypothalmic response when received by olfactory sensors. So, I\'ll ask the question before truth can,

    \"So what about the positive effect of Androstadienone on the VNO?\". Maybe that\'s the only embodiement of

    androgens that our devolved VNO\'s CAN detect. I really don\'t know. I\'d like to, but I don\'t.



    DIHL

    We all daydream. We\'ve seen people daydreaming. It looks to the observer that the daydreamer is

    \"somewhere else\" mentally. Perhaps the daydreamer is in some \"place\" deep within the mind.

    The state of

    daydreaming and the effect we call the \"Deer in the Headlights Look\" are probably quite similar, though they

    likely don\'t occur in the same \"place\".

    The Hypothalamus is a primitive part of our brains that we no

    longer rely upon to the extent that our early ancestors did. While we know that it still regulates body temperature

    and other necessary functions, it\'s rarely called upon to make a \"Fight or Flight\"* decision, and the role of

    Pheromone input has surely diminished over the millenia.
    But when it IS called upon, it works damn well.
    *I\'ve

    long wondered, if we were suddenly exposed to the scent of a Sabre-toothed Tiger while we were sleeping, if we\'d

    suddely bolt upright and go crashing through the nearest window to escape. (Haven\'t lost any sleep over this

    though.)

    When I\'ve been fortunate enough to see what I\'d refer to as a \"Textbook DIHL\", what I\'ve

    observed is a woman going to another place, somewhere DEEP within herself, totally negating the effect of the

    conscious mind.

    I would liken it to driving on a mountainous country road while listening to the radio. Suddenly,

    instead of Creed or Bush, you\'re listening to a Bluegrass station, and it doesn\'t go away until you\'ve

    crested the next hill, unless you can actively tune your own station back in.

    That\'s where females who are

    truly in DIHL mode are, somewhere in the deep primitive recesses of their minds, awaiting a signal to bring them

    back.
    Something like a transmission slipping.

    The little Hypothalamus has taken over control of the ship, and

    the more developed parts of her brain need to muster their forces to put down the mutiny. How long this takes can

    give you an idea of how well developed those forces really are.
    Sometimes the transmission keeps slipping.

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    Thank you to those that stayed with me through the ramblings

    above. I had more to present, but realized that this was already an epic. Perhaps I\'ve only restated the obvious,

    I don\'t know. Perhaps I\'m SO far off base that it\'s laughable. Again, I don\'t know. I only ask that if

    you\'d like to argue these points, that you do so in plain English. The only letters after my name are

    \"Jr\".
    _______________________________________

    Here\'s where that\'s

    from:
    http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB4&amp;Number=117

    78&amp;fpart=1&amp;PHPSESSID=


    Oscar [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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    Default Re: VNO Debate

    Yay! My first topic

    gets 5 stars! Yippee! Do I get a drink for that? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]



    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    I would suggest that just the smell of Pheromones

    will provide the activation of the Hypothalamus that the VNO is reputed to have an exclusive lock on. That is to say

    that there\'s a programmed response to Pheromones triggered by our olfactory sense and cross-wired to the

    hypothalamus, by-passing the VNO altogether. The programming being NOT a conditioned response but rather an input of

    information from one piece of biological hardware to another by a means that is different from the original

    configuration.


    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    So phermones DO work through merely smelling.

    Thanks so much! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] Which means that either I have to get close, or

    apply generously (not in crowded places though)

    Now, secondly can you elaborate a bit more on the difference

    between olfactory reponses and VNO responses on the phermones?

    Thanks Gecko

  17. #17
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    Default Re: VNO Debate

    Gecko did not prove

    that pheromones work through olfactory sensation. The question remains highly debated.

    However, I have noticed

    that my pheromones can have an effect on women in a range of 15-20 feet (about 5-6 metres, for our European

    friends). There may be a greater range where less visible effects occur, but I have stopped women in their tracks

    merely by walking into that range.

    I have also noticed an increase in nervous glances, hair flipping, and body

    language mirroring when women are within 15-20 feet of me.

    Women with children seem to be unaffected by the

    pheromones. Younger teenage girls rarely react the way the older ones do. The cutoff point seems to be around 17

    or 18. About that age, the girls start to respond very strongly to the pheromones. There seems to be no age limit

    to when the responses stop. But I believe that when women are with their children, their bodies\' chemistry

    changes in some way.

    If no one has studied that kind of situation, they should. Women with children (beside them

    or near them) just don\'t seem to have their man radar on.


  18. #18
    Sadhu bjf's Avatar
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    Default Re: VNO Debate

    Great post oscar. I wonder

    if people could manipulate the vibration of molecules, whether any scent can be reproduced, therefore perhaps

    inducing phero reactions.

    In the original thread the comments about older women having better pheromone

    conditioning was also great. It explains a lot of what I have seen in the field.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: VNO Debate

    very interesting post

    oscar.

    here is a little story: untill three months ago i was with one of those rare girls that cannot smell

    a-none (i say rare because i think the 1 to 4 number is said usually in relation to men, where almost all women are

    considered to smell a-none. am i right on this?). and this girl, even if she couldn\'t smell a-none, the

    pheromones surely worked with her. i could get away even with 3 sprays of TE (i didn\'t try more, and even 3 i

    tried very rarely). it was funny. we were going in the underground, everybody had cleared off sitting miles away,

    and only she couldn\'t stop staring at me, kissing me and whispering she wants to go home and f*ck right now. so i

    guess one could say the pheros were detected here not through her olfactory system, but in a different route. It

    might be the VNO, and then we will have to conclude that a-none is detected by the VNO. or it could be a by pass of

    the VNO which is NOT the olfactory system.
    don\'t know if this helps, but i had the feeling this story is related

    to the subject.

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    Default Re: VNO Debate

    </font><blockquote><font

    class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

    However, I have noticed that my pheromones can have an effect on women in a

    range of 15-20 feet (about 5-6 metres, for our European friends).

    <hr /></blockquote><font

    class=\"post\">

    Thanks [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    </font><blockquote><font

    class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Younger teenage girls rarely react the way the older ones do. The cutoff

    point seems to be around 17 or 18.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    what would be the conversion

    to european girls\' age? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

  21. #21
    Sadhu bjf's Avatar
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    Default Re: VNO Debate


    From a previous

    thread:

    Regarding the Olfaction vs. VNO element of your question, there may
    have
    been some miscommunication

    between you and Mr. Fields. Olfaction is a
    completely separate reception process from VNO-reception, and while


    there is
    nothing that defines a \"pheromone\" as having to be detected by the VNO
    to be
    considered a

    pheromone, it DOES have to be done without olfactory
    detection
    (smell) and on a subconscious level. I would be

    surprised by anyone
    who
    claims to be knowledgeable about pheromones telling you that they work
    because they

    are \"smelled\" (olfaction), and I have to believe that
    either
    the Lacroy representative accidentally wrote

    \"olfactory\" instead of
    \"VNO\" or
    doesn\'t understand the difference; remember that this is a chemical


    manufacturing firm - not an accredited research facility actively
    working on
    this very science. In reality,

    for the purposes we intend them for,
    these
    compounds really do need to be received by the VNO (VomeroNasal Organ

    -
    Vomer is Latin for plow; the organ sits within the mucous membrane that
    covers the plow-shaped septum, the

    cartilage that divides the nostrils)
    in
    order to work - that is the very basis behind modern pheromone


    behavioral
    modification, and until the discovery of the V1RL1 gene which is
    responsible
    for the existence of

    the active VNO in humans, this was also the very
    crux
    of the argument on whether or not humans could even

    receive pheromone
    signals. Unfortunately, many lesser-educated individuals misunderstand
    or
    misinterpret much

    of this information, and are less than careful with
    terminology and it\'s use.

    All that said, there is

    nothing that says a smell or smelled compound
    cannot
    produce a subconscious effect - it\'s just not a

    pheromone trigger.

    Do some additional research, and I\'m certain you\'ll find more on the
    answers
    you

    are searching for, but I think we\'re really all on the same page
    here -
    just being dogged by semantics.



    Very kind regards,

    Bob

    Robert Jones, PhD
    Industrial Tech Services
    Stone Independent Research, Inc.


  22. #22
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Default Re: VNO Debate

    A research journal article

    was published last month. It indicates that the human vomeronasal duct: the entry point to the putative human VNO is

    not required for androstenone detection. If androstenone is a human pheromone, it is therefore unlikely that it

    elicits an effect via the human VNO. Here\'s the link to the abstract of the

    article.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&amp;db=PubMed&amp;list_uid s=14674834

    &amp;dopt=Abstract

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