Saddam Hussein captured

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
To me what matters is now Iraqi people can listen

to the radio and choose to enjoy music without having to worry about being shot in the head.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> yep, if they hear Springsteen and other great bands and singers, maybe

they´ll come to change their minds about americans.
Perhaps they can do a production of mamma mia or something you

know - something cheerful! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
To me what matters is now Iraqi people can listen to the radio and choose

to enjoy music without having to worry about being shot in the head.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

yep, if they hear Springsteen and other great bands and singers, maybe they´ll come to change their minds about

americans.
Perhaps they can do a production of mamma mia or something you know - something cheerful!

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">



[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] That was funny

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Kari]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I would be a

hypocrite if I said that the US should ignore the atrocities that went on under Saddams reign. Even if he had

nothing to do with 9/11, we still can\'t sit blindly by while thousands (millions) of innocent people are killed.

I just wish that people would have stepped in fasting during the World War II/holocaust before over 6 million (I

think the number was closer to 13 million total) people were killed. Just because it isn\'t going on in our own

backyard doesn\'t give us the right to ignore it. JMHO

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Only

thing is.. we armed him, WHILE he was committing atrocities. We only cut him loose, when he balked us.

And, we

are also supporting other atrocious regimes.

So, I agree with you. But, that\'s not how our govt does things.




<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I am looking at the end result. I know that people don\'t

like the way the Bush went into this war, but I just don\'t see that as what is important. To me what matters is

now Iraqi people can listen to the radio and choose to enjoy music without having to worry about being shot in the

head. There are horiffic atrocities going on in our world. This is just a drop in the bucket, but it is a start.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I\'m with you, here. I just wish we would consistently walk our

talk. I guess, in a perfect world...... we can start by withdrawing support from the Saudi monarchies. S.A. has

serious human rights problems.

Iraqi culture is MAGNIFICENT, BTW. I learned a lot about Middle-eastern arts and

cultures when I was a dancer.

[Kari]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Leaders like Castro, Saddam, and the former Afghan regime...The US

government was what gave them their power.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Yeah, we screwed up but we

still can\'t turn a blind eye to innocent people being bullied around. I see that a lot of people are pointing

fingers at the US. What do you suppose we do? Should we ignore what is going on in the rest of the world?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

No, but I think we should adopt a consitent human rights policy. We often

put and keep opressive regimes into power, and turn a blind eye until they \"cross\" us. THEN we wage war, on the

basis of human rights violations that we blew off, when we were getting what we wanted. Gives us a very bad name.

[Elana]

I have spend a

bit of time in the Middle East as well.
It was life changing

CJ I think you meant a production of Momma Ichmial

Hayad Mohammad [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Kari]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
yeah kari, that´s what I was implying. It was the

US who played a mega vital role in making as powerful as he is/WAS. scary!

the planes don´t fly? Getting an

aircraft up and running is a piece of cake.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Not if they

haven\'t been maintianed since Gulf I. Yeah, they literally can\'t get off the ground.

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
We often put and keep opressive regimes into

power, and turn a blind eye until they \"cross\" us. THEN we wage war, on the basis of human rights violations

that we blew off, when we were getting what we wanted. Gives us a very bad name.


<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">
I agree, but I would guess that if the US went to take action against these groups now, many

people would scream that we are sticking our nose were it doesn\'t belong as they did when we entered Iraq.

[Kari]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
yeah Bruce!
What do you think of Bush´s decision that most countries are

not `allowed´ to participate in the rebuilding process?
- that really annoyed me, because it´s not his decision to

make.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

It may not be nice of Bush, but I think the USA has the

right to spend its own tax money the way it wants... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Well, there are two ways of looking at that, too. Our position is that

since we did the invasion, why shouldn\'t we reap the profits. That\'s fair.

On the other hand, the cronyism

and profiteering are starting to hit the fan. Cheney\'s company, Haliburton, just got nailed for bilking the

military out of millions.

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
CJ I think you meant a production of Momma Ichmial

Hayad Mohammad

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> if it´s still ABBA, that´s fine by me

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Kari]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
We often put and keep opressive regimes into power, and turn a blind eye

until they \"cross\" us. THEN we wage war, on the basis of human rights violations that we blew off, when we were

getting what we wanted. Gives us a very bad name.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I agree, but I

would guess that if the US went to take action against these groups now, many people would scream that we are

sticking our nose were it doesn\'t belong as they did when we entered Iraq.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Yep! We can\'t win. BUT, let\'s not keep giving money to regimes that we KNOW are

oppressive. Then later we get shot at with our own weapons.

BTW-- I wonder how history might have changed, had

Castro got his baseball contract? Remember? He tried out for pitcher in New York, aeons ago. I read he was REALLY

good. But, he didn\'t get selected.

[MysteriousMan]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Leaders like Castro, Saddam, and the former Afghan regime...The US

government was what gave them their power.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Yeah, we screwed up but we

still can\'t turn a blind eye to innocent people being bullied around. I see that a lot of people are pointing

fingers at the US. What do you suppose we do? Should we ignore what is going on in the rest of the world?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

If you have power, you have the responsibility to use it. The USA have

this power, they must not ignore the rest of the world.

The problem is more the discrepancy between the words and

how the US government is acting. Back to the concrete example: About 20 years ago (I know, I should look up the

year), when Rumsfeld himself visited Saddam, shook his hands, gave him money, waepons and logistical support, Saddam

was no way better than he was later. The only difference is that the US government thought Saddam was useful.

So

doing the useful and talking humanity all the time usually doesn\'t fit together.

Best regards,


MysteriousMan

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Should we ignore what is going on in the rest of

the world?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Hey, just as long as we don\'t have to deal with

India and Pakistan! Or (God forbid!) our own issues. That would be too much like work.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]


</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
Iraqi culture is MAGNIFICENT, BTW.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

That\'s true.


Holmes

[Pancho1188]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Leaders like Castro, Saddam, and the former Afghan regime...The US

government was what gave them their power.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Yeah, we screwed up but we

still can\'t turn a blind eye to innocent people being bullied around. I see that a lot of people are pointing

fingers at the US. What do you suppose we do? Should we ignore what is going on in the rest of the world?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Caution: This posting may piss people off. Seriously, don\'t read it if

you\'ll get upset. I\'m taking devil\'s advocate here to expand people\'s minds...this does not reflect

my actual viewpoint, I just want to take the other side to keep everyone thinking.

In a word: Yes. You

don\'t see extremists crashing planes into Canadian buildings, do you? What was the reason Bin Laden gave for

terrorizing us? (paraphrasing) \"For too long the US has meddled with our affairs and oppressed our people.\" If

we would\'ve left them alone, we wouldn\'t have two of our greatest buildings taken away from us and 10,000

lives lost. It wasn\'t long ago that the US had slavery, no women\'s rights, and a Civil War. Over 500,000

lives were lost, but it was for our own benefit. They fought for their freedom, and it made the victory oh so

sweet. If one country can solve their own problems, why can\'t others? Do you think the US would\'ve listened

if another country came in and said, \"Whites and blacks should get along...\" or \"You are oppressing your

women\"? The citizens would\'ve told them to go to hell. Seriously. Besides, doesn\'t the US have their own

problems?

\"I see no changes. Can\'t a brother get a little peace? There\'s war on the streets and the war

in the Middle East\" - Tupac

No one\'s sending hundreds of thousands of troops around to fight poverty in the

US. If we spent all of that money from the war on our own people, we might actually be on the way to removing

poverty.

The US does so much to help everyone else, and all they get for it is a bunch of countries bitching at

them for being arrogant. The countries it helps hate the US, and the leaders it helps go ballistic and turn on the

hand that fed them. So one may ask, is it worth it when we could be doing so much more with that money than killing

people?


End Note: Once again, I apologize if I offended anyone. I am just taking devil\'s advocate for the

sake of discussion. I hope no one is deeply upset by this posting. If so, I will remove it immediately. Thank

you.

Once again:
I\'m taking devil\'s advocate here to expand people\'s minds...this does not reflect

my actual viewpoint, I just want to take the other side to keep everyone thinking.

[Elana]

Curious

Pancho...what did the 13 million innocent people killed in World War 2 do? How could they have changed their fate?

There are crazy people with a lot of power in this world. We sleep on our comfortable pillow every night. Let\'s

still remember the children that are sleeping on dirt floors. It\'s very self centered to pretend that they

don\'t exist just because we don\'t see them.

[belgareth]

Panco

Rather than being upset, I for one appreciate and agree with your argument. We have children starving in

this country yet we spend our tax dollars starting a war for spurious reasons? Several people have made good points

about the real reasons we are there and frankly, we do not belong in Iraq. The world is a better place without

people like Saddam but we helped him get there in the first place. We are a democratic society yet we cannot abide

by the decisions of a world wide democracy we claim to support and go to war against the popular vote?

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If we would\'ve left them alone, we wouldn\'t

have two of our greatest buildings taken away from us and 10,000 lives lost.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Don\'t ever blame us for that. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]We were not

responsible for radical insane extremists taking down our buildings and ruining thousands of lives.

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Curious Pancho...what did the 13 million innocent

people killed in World War 2 do? How could they have changed their fate? There are crazy people with a lot of power

in this world. We sleep on our comfortable pillow every night. Let\'s still remember the children that are

sleeping on dirt floors. It\'s very self centered to pretend that they don\'t exist just because we don\'t see

them.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

How many of those children live withing 100 miles of you?

What do we owe them? Doesn\'t charity begin at home? Couldn\'t it have been done without killing all the

innocents? Should we have supported him and still be supporting others like him because it suits our business

interests?

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Panco

Rather than being upset, I for one

appreciate and agree with your argument. We have children starving in this country yet we spend our tax dollars

starting a war for spurious reasons? Several people have made good points about the real reasons we are there and

frankly, we do not belong in Iraq. The world is a better place without people like Saddam but we helped him get

there in the first place. We are a democratic society yet we cannot abide by the decisions of a world wide democracy

we claim to support and go to war against the popular vote?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Can

you see why it would be so unfair of me to say that we shouldn\'t get involved? What if the US never got involved

in WW2. I probably wouldn\'t be here today along with the rest of the 13 million Jews left in the world today.

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Curious Pancho...what did the 13 million innocent people killed in World War

2 do? How could they have changed their fate? There are crazy people with a lot of power in this world. We sleep on

our comfortable pillow every night. Let\'s still remember the children that are sleeping on dirt floors. It\'s

very self centered to pretend that they don\'t exist just because we don\'t see them.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

How many of those children live withing 100 miles of you? What do we owe

them? Doesn\'t charity begin at home? Couldn\'t it have been done without killing all the innocents? Should we

have supported him and still be supporting others like him because it suits our business interests?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I support many charities here at home. I am collection right now for a

popular cancer charity. I know what is going on in my backyard as well as on the other side of the globe.

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Well, there are two ways of looking at that, too.

Our position is that since we did the invasion, why shouldn\'t we reap the profits. That\'s fair.


<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> you already pointed out that USA played a more than vital role in creating

this problem saddam in the first place. So no, why should the US reap the benefits by getting rid off a disaster

which wouldn´t have been there if it wasn´t for them? I mean in this context, they kind of made up for a past

error!

It´s not about what´s fair to the USA ! It should be what´s good for Iraq now. Plus, because of

saddam´s regime, everyone else has been devrived of doing normal business with Iraq for a long time.

Another

important, maybe the most important point is this: If different nations get in there and help iraq now, the iraqi

people will get used to dealing with different countries much sooner. This will help, `integrate´them more into the

rest of the world. Am I making sense here?

They´ll learn to deal with other nations and perhaps feel more

comfortable and so on.

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It´s not about what´s fair to the USA ! It should

be what´s good for Iraq now.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

That\'s right, CJ.

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Can you see why it would be so unfair of me to say

that we shouldn\'t get involved? What if the US never got involved in WW2. I probably wouldn\'t be here today

along with the rest of the 13 million Jews left in the world today.


<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\"> hmmmm, I´m more optimistic! But you know, like what I said earlier, if the US had gotten a move

on YEARS sooner, more lives coulda been saved.
The other allies did a really great job in fighting the Nazis, in

fact they did the most work!
I really don´t want to take anything away from the americans but I´m sick to death of

hearing that THEY are the heros and THEY won the war - like france, britain and other countries didn´t do anything

at all!!! Nobody ever gives a mention to the many germans who fought the nazi regime either - that sucks!

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I really don´t want to take anything away from the

americans but I´m sick to death of hearing that THEY are the heros and THEY won the war - like france, britain and

other countries didn´t do anything at all!!! Nobody ever gives a mention to the many germans who fought the nazi

regime either - that sucks!


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I couldn\'t care less about who

did what. As I said before, it is all about the end result. As fas as the Germans that helped the Jews in

WW2...there are huge memorials to them. Even in Israel\'s very sacred Yad Vashem there is a garden dedicated just

to them.

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Rather than being upset, I for one appreciate and

agree with your argument. We have children starving in this country yet we spend our tax dollars starting a war for

spurious reasons? Several people have made good points about the real reasons we are there and frankly, we do not

belong in Iraq. The world is a better place without people like Saddam but we helped him get there in the first

place. We are a democratic society yet we cannot abide by the decisions of a world wide democracy we claim to

support and go to war against the popular vote?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Curious,

isn\'t it?

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
How many of those children live

withing 100 miles of you? What do we owe them? Doesn\'t charity begin at home? Couldn\'t it have been done

without killing all the innocents? Should we have supported him and still be supporting others like him because it

suits our business interests?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Good questions.


Holmes

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Even in Israel\'s very sacred Yad Vashem there is

a garden dedicated just to them.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> never been there

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Just had to mention all that because you only mentioned

the US and the others deserve the credit too!
And most people ignore the fact or don´t even know that not all

germans were nasty.

[Elana]

You are

fooling yourself if you think the poorest children in this country are in the same situation of say the average

child of Iraq.

[Pancho1188]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Curious Pancho...what did the 13 million innocent

people killed in World War 2 do? How could they have changed their fate? There are crazy people with a lot of power

in this world. We sleep on our comfortable pillow every night. Let\'s still remember the children that are

sleeping on dirt floors. It\'s very self centered to pretend that they don\'t exist just because we don\'t see

them.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Once again, I\'m taking devil\'s advocate here to

expand people\'s minds...this does not reflect my actual viewpoint, I just want to take the other side to

keep everyone thinking.

Oh, and PLEASE don\'t take anything I say as a personal attack because it\'s

not...

What does it matter how they sleep if they\'re happy? Having less doesn\'t necessarily mean

they\'re less happy. It\'s a US stereotype that less wealth = less happiness even though psychological studies

show that wealthy people are no happier than poor people.

The US put those crazy people into power...they also

put many of those crazy people into power by removing other crazy people from power...who\'s to say that another

crazy person won\'t rise after the fall of Saddam? The US hasn\'t had that problem because they solved their

problems internally. They didn\'t like how England was treating them, so they took over and made a government

that would be beneficial to all. Maybe they should let others do the same.

The 13 million people who died in

WWII died with dignity and purpose. Their deaths will forever be remembered as millions of brave souls who held

their beliefs in the face of death and will live on in eternity as the great people that they were. However, if

they didn\'t die, other people would\'ve. As in any \"What if you knew the future and could change the

present\" or \"What if you could kill Hitler before he rose to power, would you do it\" movie/tv show (Think

\"Dead Zone\", \"Quantum Leap\", \"Twilight Zone\", \"Early Edition\", etc.), changing one bad thing may

just lead to other bad things happening down the road. In the Twilight Zone case, the guy actually tried to stop

Hitler but couldn\'t because of \"fate\" or whatever. Also, the world is now a better place because of that

horrible incident. It\'s only after you experience the atrosity that you begin to value human life. (Sorry to

bring religion into this, but it\'s a good example) Just as Christians thank Jesus for dying for their sins to

make their lives better, maybe we should be thankful to those who lost their lives so we could see the light that we

should be helping each other instead of killing each other. Maybe we should see it in the positive light that the

world is now a better place because of these wonderful people instead of feeling guilt and pain over everything. I

know many people celebrate Martin Luther King day with pride and appreciation because he sacrificed his own life for

equality. I don\'t think he regretted it for a moment, and we should always keep these people in our

memory.


Okay, I\'m going off on a tangent and trying to be positive about everything, thus losing my

devil\'s advocacy... That\'s enough for today, I can\'t keep up an objective argument of this

magnitude any longer.

As always, my word of caution:
I\'m taking devil\'s advocate here to expand

people\'s minds...this does not reflect my actual viewpoint, I just want to take the other side to keep

everyone thinking.

PS: By defeating this argument, you are thus beating much of the adversity that stands in the

way of things. Remember, you must defeat the wrong and even outlandish views to get people to believe in your

cause. Hopefully by beating this argument, you can make your own stronger.

[Kari]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Well, there are two ways of looking at that, too. Our position is that since

we did the invasion, why shouldn\'t we reap the profits. That\'s fair.


<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\"> you already pointed out that USA played a more than vital role in creating this problem saddam in

the first place. So no, why should the US reap the benefits by getting rid off a disaster which wouldn´t have been

there if it wasn´t for them? I mean in this context, they kind of made up for a past error!

It´s not about

what´s fair to the USA ! It should be what´s good for Iraq now. Plus, because of saddam´s regime, everyone else

has been devrived of doing normal business with Iraq for a long time.

Another important, maybe the most important

point is this: If different nations get in there and help iraq now, the iraqi people will get used to dealing with

different countries much sooner. This will help, `integrate´them more into the rest of the world. Am I making

sense here?

They´ll learn to deal with other nations and perhaps feel more comfortable and so on.


<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I\'m just pointing out both sides of the contracts arguement. what\'s

good for Iraq MAY NOT be US.

I DO think the Iraqi should be better off. I do not think we invaded for

humanitarian reasons, and I\'m not sure that 9-11 perpetrated by whom we said.

I think the whole thing smells,

and that we have to leave.

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Even in Israel\'s very sacred Yad Vashem there is a garden dedicated just

to them.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> never been there

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

It\'s

heartbreaking. I never once made it all the way through. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] They

have one room that just reads the names of the all of children that were killed, with pictures. It\'s a nightmare.

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
What does it matter how they sleep if they\'re

happy?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I have a feeling that for the most part, Iraqi children

are not very happy.