SOE in bars

**bjf** · 12-07-2003, 05:48 PM

Hi guys, I was wondering what

type of results people have just gotten using SOE standalone and maybe SOE and Wagg together (without anything

else), in the bar scene. No big guys please, SOE seems to work well on these guys, but I wouldn\'t classify

myself with them.

Have you found that SOE improves the results of your approaches? Also, does it just give

chattiness, or is their a respect and attraction from it like their seems to be with the none containing

products?

I know rone is supposed to be a hetero male sig, but because people got less than spectucler

results using it alone (from old threads I have read), I am not sure if it draws attraction/respect.

I am

thinking about stpping my none use because it seems to intimidate women sometimes. I may use two dabs of te and

Thanks

**Watcher** · 12-08-2003, 03:54 PM

Well if you have looked at

DD#1 this has a small anone compoennt but when applied in say 6 - 8 dabs works well in a bar situation based upon my

experience anyway.

**bjf** · 12-08-2003, 03:57 PM

thanks I\'ll try. Do you

recommend using a lacroy as the none source for secret ingredients?

**Sagacious1420** · 12-08-2003, 05:30 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
thanks I\'ll try. Do you recommend using a

lacroy as the none source for secret ingredients?

<hr /></blockquote>

WTF?

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

You mean you\'ve been around long enough to post over 500

times, but have no clue what\'s in the cookbook? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Sorry,

(phero) dude, but that just floors me! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

**CptKipling** · 12-09-2003, 01:08 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
thanks I\'ll try. Do you recommend using a lacroy as the none source for

secret ingredients?

<hr /></blockquote>

WTF?

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

You mean you\'ve been around long enough to post over

500 times, but have no clue what\'s in the cookbook? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Sorry,

(phero) dude, but that just floors me! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

<hr

/></blockquote>

And you\'ve never read Watcher say that exact thing before?!

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Something

that I like more the more I do it is adding a small amount of -none to your regular TE or NPA application.

**bjf** · 12-09-2003, 02:01 PM

No Sag. I\'ve gone through

it, but the mixes are nothing that I have retained or practiced. Too hard to remember what names go with what, and

I don\'t have the empty bottles or enough of the pheros to make mixes.

I\'m not gung-ho anyway on exact

amounts, I more focus on what the pheros do individually, and how targets interpret general ratios.

**franki** · 12-09-2003, 02:03 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Is that shocking?

<hr /></blockquote>

yes.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

**bjf** · 12-09-2003, 02:07 PM

Franki --

Shouldn\'t

be. I only have so much room in my head, and don\'t have too much storage space left for pheros. I\'d guess a

lot of people have trouble remembering the mixes, so the posts on them are hard to follow.

**franki** · 12-09-2003, 02:09 PM

Sorry, I was just kidding..

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

**franki** · 12-09-2003, 02:13 PM

To answer your original

post:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Have you found that SOE improves the

results of your approaches?

<hr /></blockquote>

yes

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Also, does it just give chattiness, or is their a respect and attraction

from it like their seems to be with the none containing products?

<hr /></blockquote>

definitely the latter.. Remember SOE is not just -nol. Androsterone is the signature mone in SOE (ask James

Kohl) and is good for respect and attraction.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I

know rone is supposed to be a hetero male sig, but because people got less than spectucler results using it alone

(from old threads I have read), I am not sure if it draws attraction/respect.

<hr /></blockquote>

I am sure it DOES. It is of a different quality than -none responses. Keyword :

aggressiveness. -Rone works like -none without the aggressiveness as far as I know..

**bjf** · 12-09-2003, 02:20 PM

Thanks Franki. We can go get

a beer now.

The highest ratios of nol to none I have worn is when I have worn the standard one spray of TE or

three dabs of npa, complemented by a ton of soe.

It hasn\'t seemed to bring out the usual nol effects in

targets.

Perhaps even if the ratio is high in nol:none, enough none makes that kinda moot.

**Sagacious1420** · 12-09-2003, 05:43 PM

bjf-

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Too hard to remember what names go with

what, and I don\'t have the empty bottles or enough of the pheros to make mixes.

<hr /></blockquote>
Boston rounds should be easy to find and they\'re cheap, too.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I\'d guess a lot of people have trouble remembering the mixes, so the

posts on them are hard to follow.

<hr /></blockquote>
That\'s why there\'s a

reference section. Trust me, I don\'t have them all memorized either. I had assumed that since you responded to

Watcher\'s post w/<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
thanks I\'ll try

<hr

/></blockquote>that you had looked it up and would have known that it utilizes a LaCroy

product containing a secret ingredient.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I know rone is supposed to be a hetero male sig,

but because people got less than spectucler results using it alone (from old threads I have read), I am not sure if

it draws attraction/respect.

<hr /></blockquote>

I am sure it DOES. It is of a

different quality than -none responses. Keyword : aggressiveness. -Rone works like -none without the aggressiveness

as far as I know..

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'m inclined to agree w/ you, Franki.

I\'ve been getting great results by using a higher proportion of rone to none and an even higher proportion of

nol. More specifically about 2X the amount of rone over none and about 3X the amount of nol to rone. With such a

ratio I maintain the sexual appeal, w/out the intimidation factor and the nol encourages fun social

interactions.

So bjf, I\'d agree w/ paying attention to ratios, but the actual numbers shouldn\'t be

overlooked either, IMO.

**bjf** · 12-09-2003, 07:00 PM

Sag -

When I have tried to

track down what these things stand for I couldn\'t find it in the cookbook which only seemed to have recipes from

quite some time ago, so I stopped checking out the cookbook. Maybe I am wrong about this, but that is my

understanding.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I\'ve been getting great

results by using a higher proportion of rone to none and an even higher proportion of nol. More specifically about

2X the amount of rone over none and about 3X the amount of nol to rone. With such a ratio I maintain the sexual

appeal, w/out the intimidation factor and the nol encourages fun social interactions.

<hr /></blockquote>

Do you own CS Rone? I\'d love to try what you are doing, but my only rone sources are AE and

soe. Not very conducive for that.

I was thinking about purchasing CS Rone some time ago. I did alot of

searches, read all the posts, and specificially checked out people expierementing with rone standalone. In the end,

the feedback led me not to make the purchase.

Have you tried your mixes that are working with no rone at all?

perhaps the nol to none ratio and amounts happens to be correct. Just exploring all possibilities.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I admit I have to say that because I am kinda scared of the

responses on these boards. Don\'t want to rock the boat.

I know rone has shown responses in humans in the

studies, so I am not trying to say it is a load of crap, I just do not understand why a pheromone that is supposed

to bring respect, be a hetero signature, would yield such mediocre to neglible results when applied by itself.
I

think the biggest support of that is that you see none commonly used, sold, by itself, but rone products tend to

only be for experts (ie chemistry sets, for mixing) and very rarely do you hear about men or women on this board

using their rone alone to attract targets, like we do with none.

Before anyone jumps all over me for such

skepticism, think about what I said, and does it all really add up what rone is supposed to do based on the

standalone rone usage (or lack there of) from pheromones most advanced and experienced users, the lack of rone-based

products (vs. none based) and simply the experimentation results from what I have read from those on these boards

who were using cs rone alone (though there were some positives)?

My only guess is that rone works to compliment

other pheromones, and is an enhcancement, but if so, what are the mechanisms of this? Perhaps it is similar to

Lacroy\'s secret ingredients complimenting none. Then again, those pheromones seemed to be put in those bottles

based on their effect on on target responses in LaCroy\'s R&D ) no I can\'t qualify that statement just the

impression I have gotten from bruce\'s comments), and rone has seemed to gain its fame and inclusion in products

mainly from the siginificance it gained from its ability to create a LH response.

Now I don\'t know how

concious people are of such an LH response when they are actually having one, but if so, a) how does this influence

one\'s opinion of the person causing such a response (I would assume the common answer would be respect) and b) if

this response is good, how come people aren\'t wearing rone standalone, when rone only needs to be by itself to

cause such a response.

Maybe all this stuff is too detailed for me to ask, and if it is, then I apologize. But I

don\'t think my questions are stupid.

**Sexyredhead** · 12-09-2003, 08:14 PM

I love -rone. SOE

does all kinds of yummy things to me, and IIRC, it\'s just -rone and -nol. I wear -nol all the time, so it\'s

not the -nol I\'m noticing. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

**jvkohl** · 12-09-2003, 10:18 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

...I just do not understand why a pheromone that is supposed to bring

respect, be a hetero signature, would yield such mediocre to neglible results when applied by itself.

<hr

/></blockquote>

It is the ratio of androsterone (A) to etiocholanolone (E) that appears

to provide a distinctive masculine signature. A/E ratios in urine (which also means in other body secretions like

perspiration) distinguish heterosexual males from heterosexual females and homosexual males.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

...very rarely do you hear about men or women

on this board using their rone alone to attract targets, like we do with none.

<hr /></blockquote>

-none has been used in many studies; -rone has only been used in a few, most with unpublished

findings.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

My only guess is that rone works

to compliment other pheromones, and is an enhcancement, but if so, what are the mechanisms of this?

<hr

/></blockquote>

Androstenol conditions the LH response, but the response is conditioned

also in the presence of androsterone (which may or may not directly affect LH). Think of it this way; the cover

scent of SOE will be linked to the -nol induced LH response, and the cover scent also includes some -rone scent. So,

even if -rone does not alter LH, it is associated with the alteration--just like visual input is associated with the

conditioned LH response. The LH response is linked to increased mood; the androstenol and androsterone also will be

linked to increased mood, whether or not the link is conscious (as with the cover scent of SOE) or unconscious: to

LH levels.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

...rone has seemed to gain its

fame and inclusion in products mainly from the siginificance it gained from its ability to create a LH

response.

<hr /></blockquote>

Hope I clarified this above. -nol is linked to the LH

response, -rone is not (yet). -rone is linked to a more masculine scent.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Now I don\'t know how concious people are of such an LH response when

they are actually having one, but if so, a)

<hr /></blockquote>

People are not

conscious of the LH response.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
how does this

influence one\'s opinion of the person causing such a response

<hr /></blockquote>

Increased LH increases estrogen in women, which is a \"feel good\" sort of thing. Feeling

good is associated with the presence of the male, because the male sends chemical signals that increase LH (-nol),

but also that are associated with his masculine scent signature (containing -rone).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
if this response is good, how come people aren\'t wearing rone standalone,

when rone only needs to be by itself to cause such a response.

<hr /></blockquote>

This

goes back to the A/E ratio in association with the -nol. It\'s most likely the blend that matters. A/E ratios

change more quickly than do levels of -nol, since the A/E response comes from the adrenal glands. If stress is

suppressing the precursor hormone to A/E (i.e., cortisol suppression of DHEA), than the decreased -rone associated

scent can also be expected to signal stress. That\'s why adding -rone should make the male appear to be a better

choice. If he\'s less stressed than his peers are by whatever the circumstances, he comes off looking like he

smells better; smelling like he looks better. Sort of like adding a little of your favorite spice when cooking to

add chemical appeal to the food.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Maybe all this stuff is too detailed for me to ask, and if it is, then I

apologize. But I don\'t think my questions are stupid.

<hr /></blockquote>

Good

questions; wish I could provide more details, but hope I\'ve helped a bit. My Neuroendocrinology Letters article

addressed the conditioned response, but does not specifically address the role of -nol and of -rone. Details on the

A/E ratio will be forthcoming if my research journal article on homosexual orientation is published (currently

it\'s being reviewed for possible publication). I know that the research journal articles aren\'t much help for

most people on this forum, and added an epilogue to my book in this regard. Tried to keep the -rone link simple in

the epilogue--don\'t know whether I was successfull. In any case, I\'ll keep trying different approaches to get

the message accross.

**Sagacious1420** · 12-09-2003, 11:14 PM

SRH-

Thanks

for posting. It was some of the statements you\'ve made in the past that really got me thinking more about the

possible/potential role of rone in a phero mix. The rone/sandalwood connection has also led me to put more of an

emphasis on sandalwood in my fragrance creations. Plus it just smells really nice.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

bjf-

My original post was really more out of

surprise, than anything else. I will admit that I don\'t spend as much time w/ the cookbook as I did when I 1st

started researching the info available on the forum. I spent about 2 months poking around here before I joined this

forum and still go back to the older posts and archives. I still spend a lot of time doing searches to this day.

It\'s much like learning anything new I suppose. As your knowledge/understanding progresses, things that didn\'t

hold as much meaning before make more sense as you progress. I would definitely encourage anyone to revisit the

wealth of info available. You ever watch a really great movie and then go back and watch it again? All of the

sudden, something that you missed before or a seemingly trivial scene makes sense and the whole plot is more

meaningful and more enjoyable. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

For quite some time I had

this intuitive sense that rone played a more significant role than I fully understood. My first mix was JB#1 and I

never had good results. Not that it didn\'t work, it just didn\'t work in a way that I desired. If I\'m ever

feeling masochistic and wanna get my ass kicked, then maybe I\'ll use it again.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] All I got was aggression and it was a real bummer.

When I

began using AE/m, I started getting more of the kind of hits that I was looking for. AE/m is proportionally higher

in none than rone and the none levels were similar to what I had when using JB#1, but w/ the rone addition the

aggression diminished and the respect factor appeared. I also got my first DIHLs.

I had always used SOE solo

and only for social situations where I wasn\'t looking for sexual hits. Hanging out w/ friends and such. I began

to combine SOE and AE/m and I began to get even better results. At this point I was looking at proportionally

higher levels of rone to none, but I didn\'t have the advantage of NPA\'s secret ingredient.

Next I

began to add a few dabs of NPA/m and I really started to get some really good sexual hits. However, I still had the

occasional aggression problem. At this point my none and rone levels were pretty much equal, but I still had this

feeling the rone levels could be higher. Again just a gut feeling. As you mentioned, I had this idea that it

seemed to accentuate other pheros and like Franki said it seemed to be similar to none, but w/out the intimidation

factor.

Lately, I\'ve been working to get the type of none:rone:nol ratios that I mentioned in my previous

post. I also wanted to incorprate a diversity of secrets in my mixes. I doubt that the mix I\'ve been using

lately would be feasible for you at this point, simply because of the number of products I\'m using. It\'s also

intended to be a cologne additive.

How do you like that, I stepped away for a minute to take a phone call

and JVK made a great post. That helps to explain why I\'ve been getting the kind of reponses in my prelim tests

of my newest mix, at least as far as rone is concerned. Perhaps I\'m on the right track.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

**bjf** · 12-10-2003, 06:49 AM

JKohl -

What I am

getting from your post is that rone is a scent -- it is like the civet of the human male.

I also got the

impression that your argument for it as ultimately working as an attractant was like the old bell and the dog (food)

expirment.

Are you saying a person\'s lifetime of experience (namely women) around men have taught them to

associated the effects of a pheromone that does cause an LH response with rone?

If so, why not just use the

pheromone that directly causes the LH response?

Or maybe this is a bad argument because perhaps the same

mechanisms work for none to be effective (as I recall it does not cause an LH response).

What good is

rone without the proper A/E ratio -- back to the etiocholanolone, which I assume does not come in the pheromone

products we purchase. Is etiocholanolone just something our body produces, and in adding rone, you are creating a

high rone:etiocholanolone ratio, which therefore is an indication of a lack of stress?

Finally, is it really

fair to compare rone and none? I have heard you say it provides all the benefits without the negatives, but they

seem to be separate entities that cannot replace one another. Especially in standalone trials, the results seeemd

to be different.

Thanks JVK

Sag, I will be sure get to your post later.

**MysteriousMan** · 12-10-2003, 11:22 AM

JVK,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

It is the ratio of androsterone

(A) to etiocholanolone (E) that appears to provide a distinctive masculine signature. A/E ratios in urine (which

also means in other body secretions like perspiration) distinguish heterosexual males from heterosexual females and

homosexual males.

<hr /></blockquote>
What about homosexual

females?

MysteriousMan

**jvkohl** · 12-10-2003, 12:08 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
What about homosexual females?
MysteriosMan

<hr /></blockquote>

No testing to date, but I anticipate that in some cases--those with noticeable masculine

features, the scent signature also will be masculine due to more masculine A/E ratios. There\'s an enzyme called

aromatase that converts testosterone to estradiol, and aromatase levels seem to be partially determined before

birth. But most of the testosterone produced in women comes from the adrenal glands, so we can\'t yet compare such

things between men and women.

**Mtnjim** · 12-10-2003, 12:25 PM

\"There\'s an enzyme

called aromatase that converts testosterone to estradiol,...\"

Any way to supplement??

**jvkohl** · 12-10-2003, 12:34 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

What I am getting from your post is that rone is a scent -- it is like the

civet of the human male.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not quite like civet; production of -rone

is minimal, as with -none, and -nol. The -rone is an essential part of the mix whether or not it is consciously

perceived.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I also got the impression that

your argument for it as ultimately working as an attractant was like the old bell and the dog (food)

expirment.

<hr /></blockquote>

That\'s correct. It\'s called classical

conditioning. In this case, the visual response is conditioned to the effect of pheromones on the LH response.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Are you saying a person\'s lifetime of

experience (namely women) around men have taught them to associated the effects of a pheromone that does cause an LH

response with rone?

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, you seem to understand it

well.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

If so, why not just use the pheromone

that directly causes the LH response?

<hr /></blockquote>

Using -nol alone would not

mimic the presence of an alpha male; it would be akin to merely indicating the presence of a male. The -rone should

help open the envelope.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Or maybe this is a bad

argument because perhaps the same mechanisms work for none to be effective (as I recall it does not cause an LH

response).

<hr /></blockquote>

No testing has been done to see whether -rone elicits an

LH response, but it most likely does. Even visual stimuli (associated with the pheromone induced LH response) will

elicit an LH response--in the absence of the scent, or even in the absence of the female (think, erotic imagery.)

The reason explicit photos still get a charge out of most men is because they associate the picture with the

conditioned response to pheromones.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

What good

is rone without the proper A/E ratio -- back to the etiocholanolone, which I assume does not come in the pheromone

products we purchase. Is etiocholanolone just something our body produces, and in adding rone, you are creating a

high rone:etiocholanolone ratio, which therefore is an indication of a lack of stress?

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, it is the A/E ratio that\'s important; increaseing A increases the A/E ratio to a more

masculine ratio. The amount of E is relatively insignificant, I think.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Finally, is it really fair to compare rone and none? I have heard you say

it provides all the benefits without the negatives, but they seem to be separate entities that cannot replace one

another. Especially in standalone trials, the results seeemd to be different.

<hr /></blockquote>

My comparison of -rone to -none are simply the result of a literature review, with reports from

this Forum that tend to support the comparison. -None consistently comes up as a negative signal, both in the

literature on pheromones and in reports from this Forum (except when women are ovulating--and even then it merely is

reported in the literature as being less negative, not positive). What can you expect from something described as

urinous, at best--or like stale urine/sweat also in a negative context. -Nol is described as musky (positive

association, as is -rone to a degree). My experiments with -rone gave me predictable results, based on reports of

experiments with -nol. Regina Maiworm is the only other researcher I know about who has experimented with -rone in

the recent past. Her studies were based on a report from 1961 as I recall. When it becomes better known that A/E

ratios are different in homosexual males (more like ratios in females) there should be renewed interest. But I

wasn\'t about to wait around for proof; the results are too predictable.

**bjf** · 12-10-2003, 01:00 PM

Thank you. You asnwered all

my questions. My civet comparison wa bad, I just didn\'t really think about what it was. I just should have said

\"scent of a hetero male.\"

Now I know it is your position that we react to different pheromone signatures

based on our experiences since birth.

However, there might seem to be a common high-quality, almost

universally-accepted attracive signature. I only say this because of experiments of women smelling men\'s

udnershirts, they picked those from men who happened (not coincidentally) to be better looking.

The next

question relates to the mix you spoke of:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

production of -rone is minimal, as with -none, and -nol. The -rone is an essential part of the mix whether or not it

is consciously perceived

<hr /></blockquote>

This poses the question, what are

the ideal ratios between rone, none and nol in this mix that would be universally considered attractive to women?

Perhaps, the testing of the sweat of unversally (i use that word loosely) perceived good-looking men might yield the

ideal ratios, if it is in fact true that women in general enjoy the sweat of phsyically attractive males over that

of others.

I suspect there has been very little research on the ideal relationship between the amounts of

pheromones to one another. But isn\'t this fairly imporant, especially as you have seemed to indicate that

something like nol is incomplete without rone? So the question is, how do we use rone to complment nol. I know you

have a 4:1 ratio in your product, so perhaps you have found the answer to this.

Perhaps this is why none

reactions (without rone or even nol) were bad is studies, for most of the female cycle. The signature was

incomplete (not a good indication of none\'s worthiness), and rather, needed the other components of the idea male

pheromone signature to rendure a postive overall end result using none.

I know you have stayed from none in

your products, but the same may be said about nol and rone -- that it can be improved. The inclusion of none (bad

on its own or not) may make that mix a better one.

Afterall, attractive hetero males have all three in their

signature, and conditioning would seem to not make a women reject none in a mix, unless she just is attracted to the

female pheromone signature.

I know alter ego is on the market, but not sure where they came up with their

ratios and why the believe that is what is ideal. Both soe and AE seem to go lightest on the rone, while sag has

been talking about experimenting with going heaviest on it (interesting idea).

**bjf** · 12-10-2003, 04:48 PM

Sag -

Just went through

your post. You didn\'t seem to indicate you have CS nol.

Don\'t know how you can get rone nd none levels

nearly equal as you indicated without using mostly SOE, but you were using AE and NPA too. How did you do

this?

We are also kind of the opposite. JB 1 can work great for me, yet AE isn\'t that good for me.

**Sagacious1420** · 12-10-2003, 05:02 PM

Wow! Some great

posts going on here. Based on my review of some of the literature (which is not exhaustive by any means) and my own

experiences w/ none only concoctions, I got the impression that none by itself doesn\'t elicit the most positive

responses from both genders. AE, w/ it\'s inclusion on a lower level of rone, yielded more favorable responses.

The problem I had w/ AE alone was the tendency for ppl to become very submissive, regardless of gender. It was

lacking a certain social element. Adding SOE to AE gave better results for me. Looking at the higher proportion of

rone w/ this combo led me to think that rone levels could be even higher. As I mentioned previously, w/ virtually

equal levels of none and rone, responses were not necessarily the submissive type, but I was back to dealing w/ the

occassional male aggression issue. My challenge became to find a combo of products that would allow me to have a

more effective ratio of these three pheros, a sort of stair step ratio if you will. Learning a bit about phi ratios

led me to consider what may be the most effective ratio. That\'s the goal I\'ve been striving for. I

think the three in combination are important, but wanted to find the best ratio. It\'s still early in my testing,

but there seems to be something about the 2:1 ratio of rone to none and the 3:1 ratio of nol to rone. We see many

reports of sexual hits from none only, most likely relative to a woman\'s menstrual cycle, so none seems to have

it\'s benefits. The addition of rone seems to mitigate some of the potentially negative effects you can get from

none only, perhaps somewhat more effective independent of a particular phase in the cycle. And nol is commonly

reported to be effective for the social element, i.e. encouraging chattiness and social interactions. My goal is to

make ppl feel at ease around me and want to engage in social interaction while maintaining a

comfortable/nonthreatening level of respect and keeping the sexual appeal.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
sag has been talking about experimenting with going heaviest on

[rone](interesting idea).

<hr /></blockquote>

Just to clarify. I still believe that

nol should be highest in the ratio, but think that having a greater proportion of rone to none is more beneficial.

**jvkohl** · 12-10-2003, 05:18 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

However, there might seem to be a common high-quality, almost

universally-accepted attracive signature. I only say this because of experiments of women smelling men\'s

udnershirts, they picked those from men who happened (not coincidentally) to be better looking.

<hr

/></blockquote>

The scent of symmetry; of genetic diversity; of darker complexion are all

most appealing to a heterosexual woman who is in her ovulatory phase. In other phases of the cycle, such cues to

reproductive fitness are of little or no concern. In this regard, study conditions are very important when making

statements about results.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

... what are the

ideal ratios between rone, none and nol in this mix that would be universally considered attractive to women?

Perhaps, the testing of the sweat of unversally (i use that word loosely) perceived good-looking men might yield the

ideal ratios, if it is in fact true that women in general enjoy the sweat of phsyically attractive males over that

of others.

<hr /></blockquote>

All indications point to the level of testosterone

manifest in the masculine scent signature as the key. However, since testosterone metabolizes into different

substances, and comes from different sources (gonadal and adrenal) it is difficult to determine which processes are

involved in the production of the most attractive pheromones. Add to this the fact that each person experiences

pheromones from others in a different context, and you can begin to see why no universally attractive combination is

likely. It would be akin to combining the chemicals in food to produce a food that everyone likes (not likely

because of different associations with those food chemicals in the past).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I suspect there has been very little research on the ideal relationship

between the amounts of pheromones to one another. But isn\'t this fairly imporant, especially as you have seemed

to indicate that something like nol is incomplete without rone? So the question is, how do we use rone to complment

nol. I know you have a 4:1 ratio in your product, so perhaps you have found the answer to this.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Only -nol has been shown to alter LH levels, so until other compounds are

found that also do this, speculation on the best ratio is a guessing game. That\'s not to say that you (or I, or a

perfumer) couldn\'t guess right--like with SOE. Still, maybe something better will come along. People certainly

have tried to come up with better mixes, and have received their own rewards in doing so. Still, a mix that works

for one might not work for others, as we have all seen.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>

Perhaps this is why none reactions (without rone or even nol) were bad is studies, for most of the female

cycle. The signature was incomplete (not a good indication of none\'s worthiness), and rather, needed the other

components of the idea male pheromone signature to rendure a postive overall end result using none.

<hr

/></blockquote>

That\'s possible, of course, but repeated negative associations with

-none, make it more likely that it will typically be aversive, even in combination with other attractive components.

This would serve men well who produced -none as a signal of dominance, at least with other males. Might even be

tolerable with women at times, but it\'s not likely to be a stable response. Cyclical hormone changes in women and

tonic levels in men go a long way to explaining why there are variations in positive or negative odor associations.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I know you have stayed from none in your

products, but the same may be said about nol and rone -- that it can be improved. The inclusion of none (bad on its

own or not) may make that mix a better one.

Afterall, attractive hetero males have all three in their signature,

and conditioning would seem to not make a women reject none in a mix, unless she just is attracted to the female

pheromone signature.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not rejecting -none is far from

experiencing a positive effect, therein lies the problem in using it with other

components.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I know alter ego is on the market,

but not sure where they came up with their ratios and why the believe that is what is ideal. Both soe and AE seem

to go lightest on the rone, while sag has been talking about experimenting with going heaviest on it (interesting

idea).

<hr /></blockquote>

I have little doubt that going heavier on the -rone will

appeal to some women. When I first started experimenting, I used 1mg and 2mg/ml concentrations. 1mg/ml was almost

always attractive (except to women who were pregnant). 2mg/ml was not always aversive, but typically it was too

strong. Women\'s sensitivity to -rone, and therefore their response to it, will vary with levels of hormones. The

trick is to avoid having too much of it most of the time. Too much for a more feminine heterosexual woman, might not

be too much for a more masculine heterosexual woman. I hope we hear of some results in this regard. BTW, there\'s

nothing wrong with more masculine heterosexual woman; they can be much more fun because they tend to be a bit more

aggressive, and also tend to have two peaks in their drive: one at ovulation, another just before their period

starts. Pay attention to body type: a more masculinized heterosexual woman will show signs of slightly broader

shoulder width (very slightly), less fat distribution in the hips, thighs, and butt, and have smaller breasts--all

due to more testosterone and less estrogen. The tendency also is for these women to be 5\'5\'\' plus rather

than the shorter profile of women with more estrogen. All of the preceeding is based on my own experience, but

follows the biological facts (progesterone before the start of menses can have effects like testosterone in women).

I\'m certain that other Forum members can attest to the differences in body type that correlate with sexual

behavior. If not, it should be fun for others to learn about such differences. But, watch out for large,

thick-waisted women; a more masculinized extreme. They\'re less likely to like guys.

**Sagacious1420** · 12-10-2003, 05:18 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Sag -

Just went through your post. You

didn\'t seem to indicate you have CS nol.

Don\'t know how you can get rone nd none levels nearly equal as you

indicated without using mostly SOE, but you were using AE and NPA too. How did you do this?

We are also kind of

the opposite. JB 1 can work great for me, yet AE isn\'t that good for me.

<hr /></blockquote>

For a while I was using 3 dabs NPA/m: 3 drops AE/m: 3 drops SOE. This yields approximately

0.02 mg none: 0.02 mg rone: 0.07 mg nol. I had some good sexaul hits, but still had to deal w/ the occassional male

aggression.

I don\'t have the chem set. That\'s been part of my challenge in achieving my target ratios. I

already had/have so many other products around and given limited discretionary funds, it wasn\'t feasible to

invest in the chem set. Perhaps at some point in the future I will.

I also don\'t think I mentioned that I

am using WAGG in my mixes. It was a challenge to find an effect proportion of nol and WAGG. I\'m still

theorizing, testing and learning. The process goes on.

**bjf** · 12-10-2003, 05:45 PM

Funny. I am not a big guy,

but I never get male aggression with none (or rarely). I get a lot of males submitting, and the majority of the

time I am around men with pheromones, they are drinking.

I put your mix in the calculator and got .0444 none, 0.3

rone and .0825 nol.

Fairly close on the ratios. I don\'t think I could ever really wear all of that though,

seems like a lot.

I\'m still trying to figure out wagg too and if I really need it and what effect it has.

**Sagacious1420** · 12-10-2003, 06:12 PM

bjf-

The

numbers in the PheroMix Calculator are not all neccesarily accurate. Keep in mind that only half of the amount

shown for NPA is none, the other half is the secret ingredient. The amounts for AE are about 1/3 less than those

shown. Those amounts are based on measurements from a 1 ml medicine dropper and the AE dropper gives you about 1/3

less in volume.

I made the same mistake for a long time until another forum member was kind enough to explain

it to me.

**bjf** · 12-10-2003, 06:37 PM

I factored in the half none

-- wasn\'t sure if you did, but obviously you actually did.

That\'s why i said it was pretty close.

Didn\'t know the ae thing was off. That basically puts your number right there.

I thought about this some

but was reluctant to say whether that means you are at ideal none level. I Know it was determined to be .02, but

was that based on people\'s results testing lacroy products, prior to knowledge about what the secret ingredients

presence and/or percentage was in them?

Seems like to yield 0.02 with lacroy you would have to go what I had

thought was OD applications.

**jimhoff** · 12-11-2003, 08:51 PM

This might be a bit off

of the subject but when I wear SOE to work out, I get too relaxed to really get pumped. Anyone had this happen

before?

SOE in bars

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