Morality, Maturity and Mones

[Whitehall]

I

have to disagree and defend my original assertion that the ethical issues are with how you respond to other

peoples\' responses.

Wearing pheromones, say \'none, makes you more sexually attractive to some females. If

the woman is an appropriate match, then picking up on and developing her response through your own actions is not

unethical. If the female responding is 14 and developmentally disabled mentally, then banging her is an unethical

use of pheromones. You\'re not that evil, are you?

Perhaps deliberately wearing pheromones during a visit to

nunnery is unethical since the women there deliberately and publicly wish to renounce sexual stimulation - but

you\'re not that evil, are you?

A wearer of pheromones is in a similar situation to a famous, sex male movie

star. He gets more responses than other guys. What he does to those responses from females is the ethical issue.

[Sacogoo]

belgareth writes:
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If you believe mones are

unethical, why are you using them?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

First off, while I believe

that \'mones could be considered unethical by some people, I\'m not one of them. (Basically, my sense of morals

and ethics when it comes to sex is nearly non-existent. Oh, the stories of debauchery, depravity and carnality that

I could enthrall the board with, but that is an entirely different subject.)

However, even if I did view their

use for attempting to covertly impel people into having sex with the user as immoral or unethical, my purchase and

subsequent use of pheromones did not involve and desire for gaining an advantage in sex via duplicitous subliminal

coercion. I was \"clean\" in terms of pheromones and morality. (At least initially.)

You see, it was another

individuals post from long ago on this very forum that was the initial impetus for my purcahse of pheromones. His

story was not unlike my own - a tale of misery and woe, where marriage was in doubt.

My own union was suffering

from machinations of my own creation, and was teetering on the very precipice of absolution. Desparate was I in my

search for some method of resolution, for I had exhausted all previous methods of apology and reparation and was

still suffering from her extensive wrath. I serendipitously stumbled upon this board and this one individuals post,

who was apparently also entwined in a difficult martial situation, indicated that his purchase and use of pheromones

ultimately proved to be a melange of blithe and bliss. Thus my impetus for my initial purchase of

pheromones.

However, it became apparent that not only were these products capable of affecting moods and emotions

of an individual, they also had the interesting side effect of enhancing the \"animalistic\" nature in people.

(Myself included.) Sex became primal, aggressive. There was a subconscious influence at work that was driving a

deeper desire than simply \"let\'s get a nut.\" There was a need, a want, a have to have that was coming from

within that may have not been fully touched/accessed previously. Maybe we as thinking animals have put that so far

into of subconscious that we are unable to retrieve it without the use of external stimulants. Anyway, I ramble on.

Basically, I can see where some people could/would have questions regarding ethical and moral implications in the

use of pheromones, and I don\'t think that they would necessarily be incorrect in this assumptions. Me? Don\'t

have a problem with \'em.

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Considering mones

to be unethical is akin to considering working out or dressing beyond your means to be unethical. All of them create

impressions that ARE NOT wholly on the concious level.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

But unlike

pheromones, the others can be perceived through conscious sensory clues. Pheromones are operating in a completely

different domain. Pheromones go beyond perceived social or economic or physical assumptions/perceptions. They are

meant to mitigate or nullify those specific impressions and allow those who would otherwise be at a disadvantage in

those same areas to become as equals. There is a difference.

</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Powerful techniques are taught in psycology to create rapport and lower

another person\'s resistance, are they unethical as well?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">



Slimey, yes. Unethical, no. Again, these are things that a person can be aware of through conscious means.

Pheromones are operating in a realm where individuals cannot knowingly ingore or discount them. They are forced to

be affected by them regardless if they want to or not. That is the difference.

</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Isn\'t it much more unethical to buy somebody several drinks in an effort

to seduce her?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You can always turn down a drink. You can\'t

turn down pheromones, especially if a person is using them clandestinely.

</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It certainly reduces the person\'s free choice far more than a sober

person being affected by mones would.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

At least they have free

choice in accepting or declining other things of influence (drugs, alcohol, clothes, etc.).

Unless you inform

people that you are using pheromones in an attempt to change or alter their perceptions, you are forcing them to be

potentially affected by the pheromones without any chance to make a conscious decision to be or not be under their

potential influence. That\'s the line of morality and ethics that every individual who uses pheromones must

cross.

[Sacogoo]

Whitehall writes:
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If the female responding is 14

and developmentally disabled mentally, then banging her is an unethical use of pheromones. You\'re not that evil,

are you?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

No, and I hope that no one is.



</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Perhaps deliberately wearing pheromones during a

visit to nunnery is unethical since the women there deliberately and publicly wish to renounce sexual stimulation -

but you\'re not that evil, are you?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Yes.



</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
A wearer of pheromones is in a similar situation to

a famous, sex male movie star. He gets more responses than other guys. What he does to those responses from females

is the ethical issue.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

They are in no way related. Being a movie

star is just another job. Because some segments of society deem this job as being glamorous or sexually stimulating

is their own problem. (In my personal cafe of perception, that and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee. Right after

you finish standing in line like everybody else.) Being a \"movie star\" and using that to lay wood is not

subconcsiouly affecting people without giving them a choice as to whether they wish to be affected or not.

[Mtnjim]

\"Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They still have the

free choice in how to respond to you.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Do they? From

experience, I don\'t know if they do or not.\"

If they didn\'t have a choice, the results would be just like

the fly-by-night phero sites claim! Women would be riping off their clothes and falling on their backs left and

right (I wish [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] )

[Sacogoo]

Mtnjim writes:
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If they didn\'t have a choice,

the results would be just like the fly-by-night phero sites claim! Women would be riping off their clothes and

falling on their backs left and right (I wish )

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Obviously they

won\'t work like that. (Although I\'d love to bottle whatever that drunk stripper who did that to me a few years

back was on. Man, she just went nuts.) However, they do have an impact on peoples perceptions - whether they want

the impact or not. You gotta know how to use them, see the signs and react to the signs in order for the pheromones

to work the way most people want them to work or think that they should work. But they do work.

[Ash]

I for

one have gained a lot by reading the replys to this thread. All the thoughts I had on the subject have been

expressed by others far better than I could have expressed them. I\'m amazed by the fine verity of people on this

Forum!

Saco, you\'re getting \"interestinger and interestinger\" all the time!

[Slinger]

Sacagoo, I like most of what you have said in here, seems to make sense, however...

You say pheromone use

becomes \"unethical\" because it bypasses the CONSCIOUS person, and plays on their subconscious. I don\'t see

that it matters which area of the human mind it plays on.
I have seen the types of guys that the \"hotties\" go

after, and they are almost invariably losers. And I seriously doubt these clowns are using pheromones.



Enter hot girl #1:

She supports her idiot boyfriend by working at her job while he sits on his ass

and plays video games. This guy is obviously not a good mating choice. Yet this girl CONSCIOUSLY picked him as the

most worthy mate for her.

Enter hot girl #2:

She walks into a club one night and a greasy slimeball

whom she would never normally give the time of day, happens to be wearing pheros that fine night. She is hopelessly

attracted to him (exaggerated) one thing leads to another, and soon she has this slime living at her pad, playing

video games while she goes off to work.

Let\'s review. What is difference between the two examples?

Pheromones. What is different in the outcome? Nothing.

Bear in mind I\'m not just coming up with some

bullshit here, I have seen the first situation unfold itself in real life many times over, and often times much

worse. The second situation is highly doubtful, myself having experimented with pheromones enough to realize they

don\'t work THAT good, but just for the benefit of discussion let\'s say it happens just as often as Sit. #1.

So what\'s my conclusion? Women very frequently choose horrible mates. Be it insecurities about themselves,

player skills from the loser at hand, I don\'t know, but the fact remains it is a fact, and pheromones, even at

their PEAK sleaziest usage (outside of underage sex or something similarly sick and twisted) the worst outcome is

that they blend very nicely with the way things already are, the only difference is that certain unsuccessful

greaseballs can attain women they were previously unable to attain, by whatever esoteric means of attraction the

OTHER greaseballs were able. Same players, different hand.

Another strange thing about it is this: people

use contraceptives. Very frequently. In fact, most American females (and males) seem to have a strange desire to

suppress and destroy their genes. Meanwhile, the ghetto-types, low-class, whatever, are breeding all the more.

This is from a purely scientific standpoint, and anyone taking offense, well, that\'s their problem. It is

undeniably true.

Now, seeing as women:

A) Frequently choose unworthy mates

B) Suppress or even

destroy their own genes on a daily basis

...who\'s to say anything is wrong with the butt-ugliest guy

screwing the finest woman in town? No one can, at least from the contraceptive angle the laws of nature have been

smashed to pieces, and whom the \"fittest\" woman chooses to mate with is no longer of any significance.

I

say if you\'re going to go by the laws of nature and selective breeding, with survival of the fittest in mind, you

have to take the whole shebang, the whole spectrum of human furtherance. One cannot consider it acceptable to

suppress one\'s genes, while at the same time condemning someone who skews or toys with the methods of mate

selection.

Slinger

[bjf]

It is

all fair. It is just another part of evolution. Intelligent people utilizing resources. Look at the users on this

board! Incredibly intelligent people, and that is no accident.

[Sacogoo]

Slinger writes:
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I have seen the types of guys

that the \"hotties\" go after, and they are almost invariably losers.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

In your opinion or estimation. I sincerely doubt that a significant portion of the males that

date the hot chicks are losers. However, the resentment that you are expressing is pretty typical of the \"other

guy\" syndrome, where the majority of the guys who are not dating the hottie feel that they should be because they,

not the boyfriend/husband of the hottie, could treat the hottie much better than the \"loser\" who is with her

now. This is the basic premise of being male - every guy thinks that they have something to offer that is better

than the other guy, whether they do or not. Natural law, dominance, etc. However, it\'s the actions, not the

thoughts, that get the results.

&lt;&lt;And I seriously doubt these clowns are using pheromones.&gt;&gt;

I

know that when I was actively dating, I never used pheromones, and I did actually have relationships/relations (long

term, short term, one night stands) with a couple of very attractive women. In fact, about half of these were the

result of the woman/female asking me out. If my marriage ends up in the crapper, I\'m actually pretty excited

about seeing what type of havoc I could wreak equipped with pheromones.

</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Women very frequently choose horrible mates.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

So do men.

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
You say

pheromone use becomes \"unethical\" because it bypasses the CONSCIOUS person, and plays on their subconscious. I

don\'t see that it matters which area of the human mind it plays on.
I have seen the types of guys that the

\"hotties\" go after, and they are almost invariably losers. And I seriously doubt these clowns are using

pheromones.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

The thing is, these \"losers\" are not having to be

duplicitous in their methods to attract a (potential) mate by using pheromones secretively.

[bjf]

Sacagoo. I like what you said about not hating. some of the not-so-good-looking types are with the girl because

they had the confidence to not let it stop them. Better looking guys get jealous because they think, \"hey, I am

better looking, I should have her, not him\" but SOME guys like that don\'t have the confidence, so don\'t hate

others that do.

[Slinger]

Sacagoo, I hear where you\'re coming from with the \"loser\" thing being a jealousy/whatever issue, in fact

reading my own post I would think much the same thing as an objective observer. But it\'s not that way at all.

I\'m talking about smelly bum-like guys who play vid gamez all day, crippled fat guys in wheelchairs, frail bald

married (cheating)stupid slobs, these are all guys getting pussy from some of the hottest available young females,

and none of that is any exaggeration whatsoever. Envy them I do not, if they can get some out of their league, then

good for them I guess (except the married ones, I have a problem with married guys cheating on their wives). There

are better women available to the left and to the right, I place myself merely as an observer (unless I\'m

interested in the girl, then watch out [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]), and these guys are losers

by pretty much any standard.

Slinger

[Holmes]

So

someone is deemed a \"loser\" based on the fact that he\'s bald or a \"crippled fat guy\" in a

wheelchair?


Holmes

[bjf]

Slinger:

But you can go out and get that hot tail, right? So why does any of it matter anyway? We all have the

freedom of choice, live and let live.

The losers also probably have something more than what you are seeing. I

think it is great that women will look past some of the things that men won\'t. Another thing, sometimes they

just fit their type, remind them of their father, or are basically right for them (even if that is a bad thing) even

if they are not right for other women. I could see where it does seem like BS if you are fighting for a woman with

the latter, because in a lot of those cases, it goes completely over the woman\'s head if you are better than the

other guy.

[tallmacky]

Yes, odd. Bald is genetic and I will feel that brunt soon...shiiiit

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Being in a wheelchair...well I doubt anyone wants to be in

one, or be \"crippled\". I don\'t see how that bad boy can satisfy that girl on two wheels very easily.

I

think I know what you mean, a unattractive guy? Or a lazy guy?:confused.

Still though the guy in a

wheelchair thing makes no sense....You say you are an observer, but is there anything personal undertones in that

speech? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Slinger]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The losers also probably have something more than

what you are seeing. I think it is great that women will look past some of the things that men won\'t.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Absolutely. My point is not that these guys don\'t deserve these

girls they are with, or that I don\'t want them to have them, rather that from a purely evolutionary standpoint,

these mates are wholly unworthy And that brings us back to my original point, which is that you cannot judge

pheromones as being unethical, as it stands that womens\' choices in mates do not follow the sort of logic or

standard BY WHICH you are saying the pheromones are unethical.

By loser, I usually mean lazy/jobless. I

don\'t factor in looks as a defining factor of a loser, only as an \"additive\" that makes the mix all the more

\"seemingly\" undesireable.

If you\'re reading it that I\'m some sort of elitist or that I have a

problem with cripples, uglies, or stupids, you\'re reading it all wrong. Like bjf says, live and let live. None

of us are perfect.

Slinger

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
live and let live. None of us are perfect.




<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
well...... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[tallmacky]

.....Yeah she does have a point. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[bjf]

Slinger:

I get what you are saying. Technology moves faster than evolution, so we are still picking mates on

often useless characteristics. That\'s so so true.

If pheromones were anything like ruffies, I\'d call

them unethical, but I don\'t think there influence is quite at the \"control\" level.

[belgareth]

After re-reading all these posts, some of them very thought provoking, I am begining to think the entire argument

is pointless. Mones are here and in the public\'s hands for good or ill. Whether the use of mones is ethical is

now beside the point. The real issue now is not whether they will be used but how to use them in an ethical manner.

Some arguments seem to support only allowing mone usage by consenting adults in long term relationships. That

isn\'t likely to happen. So, I ask everybody, what conditions should be placed on the use of mones in the real

world?

[Whitehall]

Any controls necessary are

already well-understood and are those placed on behavior already with only minor elaboration. Here\'s a list off

the top of my head:

1) No sex with underaged or incompetent people (especially females aka \"San Quentin

Quail\").

2) Respect the theoretical dangers that heavy \'mone exposure might present to others such as to

pregnant women. In fact, a warning label on heavy \'none products might be appropriate.

3) Respect the

express rights of others to NOT be sexually stimulated (our nunnery example). \"Lead them not into temptation.\"



4) Don\'t pose as the opposite gender with intent to deceive by using \'mones - I could see a transvestite

using copulins to enhance \"her\" phony image to pick up straight guys - the \"Lo-Lo-Lola\" scenario. An

obvious butch dyke using \'none while cruising for femmes might be OK although distasteful.

That\'s all the

specifics I can think of. Any other ideas?

[Holmes]

\"I detest violence. I

wouldn\'t smack a crippled sissy.\"

- Redd Fox


Holmes