So, no EURO for Sweden

[CJ01]

The sexy swedes have voted against the EURO today. I kind of suspected they´d vote against it but I was still holding my breath considering recents events in particular.
Congratulations I dare say - could be a bit of a blow for the economy perhaps but at least they don´t have to put up with the ugliest and most irritatingly designed coins and banknotes that represent the bleeding EURO!

CJ [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[tallmacky]

You are from Sweeden CJ01? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It\'s ok they have a pretty flag.

[CJ01]

Mind you at least SOME countries are allowed to vote democratically, the french and germans were never given a choice and it´s caused havoc. Had there been a vote in all the countries, there would be no euro now and frankly, it wouldn´t be a bad thing I reckon sometimes.
Besides why on god´s earth would sweden, which has a stable economy, want to join when the `biggest´ two countries -F and D - are in such a total mess?

CJ

[CJ01]

Hehe, no I´m not swedish TM but I bet they´re very happy you like their flag [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[franki]

They have made a poor decision. Accepting the Euro would have given them almost only advantages. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Besides the factual advantages and disadvantages, the Euro, above all, is a symbol of a united Europe. Never have countries started a war against each other that shared the same currency.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Charisma]

I agree with CJ. Although the euro (officially written lower case and not without a reason [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] ) is \'stronger\' than the dollar brought not much good. Prices has increased exponentially [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] For some stuff (E.g. drinks in bars) the old guilder symbol has been simply replaced by a euro symbol (1 euro = 2,20371 guilder). And please don\'t bring me that crap that \'officially\' prices haven\'t gone up that much... I know how money I have left over at the end of the month [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Yep, once again we\'re [censored] by our politicians and they didn\'t even kiss!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[franki]

Are you still complaining about the price raisings of more than a year ago? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Never have countries started a war against each other that shared the same currency.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

What about civil wars [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] franki, you don´t think that Sweden´s gonna be starting a war do you? I mean that´s more than unlikely.

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Are you still complaining about the price raisings of more than a year ago?


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

YES !

Besides, there will be another vote in 10 years time and if the rest of the euro countries get their act together, Sweden might join after all. But the way things are now, I don´t blame them for wanting to wait.

Estonia are joining the euro, but for them it´s probably a very good thing right now.

CJ

[Whitehall]

I\'ve been pretty deep in a big deal with a country that is euro-denominated so I have some first hand experience, coming from the USA.

In spite of all the gushy talk about free markets, control of the currency is still a tool of governance and of international relations. Countries that have jumped on board the euro are looking for economic advantages within the euro trading zone. What they forget is that they have to take the bad with the good.


The bad, in this case, is the political use of currency exchange rates. France and Germany now have effective control of the euro and are using it to control Europe so if you\'re a smaller country, you\'ve given up a good deal of self-goverance to \"Old Europe.\" That also means that when the US wants to punish \"Old Europe,\" the smaller countries risk being collateral damage.

After Gulf War II, the US policy has been \"forgive Russia, ignore Germany, and punish France.\" The main way we\'ve done that is to let the dollar drop against the euro. Our main competitor in this deal I\'m involved with is a French firm. The changes in euro/dollar rates makes my project much more competitive against a euro-denominated bid.

One of the ways the US has \"encouraged\" China to pressure North Korea over their nuclear program has been to make noises about how undervalued the yuan is against the dollar and how much that hurts some Americans. If the US were to really let the Chinese currency float, the Chinese prosperity would be stopped in its tracks. This would create serious internal political problems for the COmmunists.

I think the Swedes were wise to stay out of future USA/EU battles. We\'re going to start playing rough with the EU; woe be the innocent bystanders.

[franki]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />



Estonia are joining the euro, but for them it´s probably a very good thing right now.

CJ

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Nope , they are joining the EU, not the euro. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[franki]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />



The bad, in this case, is the political use of currency exchange rates. France and Germany now have effective control of the euro and are using it to control Europe so if you\'re a smaller country, you\'ve given up a good deal of self-goverance to \"Old Europe.\" That also means that when the US wants to punish \"Old Europe,\" the smaller countries risk being collateral damage.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Whitehall, for the most part this is not true. Before the Euro was there, small countries like Holland, Denmark, Belgium, Austria, (and partly Sweden and France) all had their currencies locked on the german mark. If the Deutsche Mark would raise against the Dollar, the currencies of the smaller countries would do the same.

In this situation it was the german Bundesbank that was making the monetary decisions for a big part of Europe on their own. Now that we have the European Central Bank, all these little countries have their own governors at the Central Bank and have more influence on monetary policies than before the Euro!!

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[franki]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


After Gulf War II, the US policy has been \"forgive Russia, ignore Germany, and punish France.\" The main way we\'ve done that is to let the dollar drop against the euro. Our main competitor in this deal I\'m involved with is a French firm. The changes in euro/dollar rates makes my project much more competitive against a euro-denominated bid.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

To be honest, this talk about punishing \"Old Europe\" is getting old. Instead it would be better to acknowledge the USA needs \"Old Europe\" and \"Old Europe\" needs the USA. A good example of this are the current trade talks (WTO) in Mexico (Cancun) at the moment. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[franki]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


I think the Swedes were wise to stay out of future USA/EU battles. We\'re going to start playing rough with the EU; woe be the innocent bystanders.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Sweden IS a part of the EU. Just not a part of the European Monetary Union (€-Zone). [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Nope , they are joining the EU, not the euro.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> smartass [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Charisma]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Estonia are joining the euro, but for them it´s probably a very good thing right now.
CJ

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Nope , they are joining the EU, not the euro. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Not YET joining... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Whitehall]

The countries that linked their currencies to the Deutschmark did so voluntarily. It had its advantages since the Bundesbank for many years provided sound economic guidence for Germany. Germany\'s political leadership also steered a prudient course in following American leadership.

So far the political and economic leadership of the European Union has been misguided and not particularly sucessful. Frankly, at times they seem suicidal - from energy policy to \"free trade\" to security in Yugoslavia.

Bush recently offered an olive branch to Europe when he went to the UN asking for increased help in Iraq. So far, he has gotten little more than lectures from \"Old Europe.\"

So, it\'s getting old hearing about \"Old Europe?\" I too would like the rancor to go away but your side of the pond have to recognize that America is doing what it has to do - you can lead, follow, or get out of the way. So far, Europe has done none of these things.

I would imagine that it does get old being on the wrong end of the stick.

[franki]

I am not a big fan either of the current french and german governments, but last time I checked (few days ago), they were willing to ACCEPT Bush\'s new proposal for an UN-resolution about Iraq (with a few things changed).

[CJ01]

The german government sucks - for the germans mostly but no european government sucks as bad as the US right now in my opinion. Bush hasn´t a sodding clue about anything, that´s the impression I´ve been getting and a number of people I´ve spoken to as well.
Besides him playing Rambo, I´m interested to learn what has changed inside the USA since Bush got his ass into the white house.
I mean what´s happened that can be considered a positive thing for americans? We don´t hear much of these type of things this side of the atantic so I´m asking those who ought to know and are directly affected.

franki, what do you reckon the chances are that the CDU in germany is gonna win next time?
I´m wondering about the Britain too, they have had similar probs with the Labour party [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

CJ

[CJ01]

BTW, I´m not sure what the euro has to do with any of this but, hey [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[franki]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

franki, what do you reckon the chances are that the CDU in germany is gonna win next time?
CJ

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I have the bad feeling that they are going to lose the 2006 elections as well.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] The CDU is more popular than the SPD, but I just don\'t see any of the candidates from them doing well against Schröder...

[Whitehall]

That\'s a good question, CJ - what has changed so far under the Bush Administration?

Frankly, Bush has been focused on the response to the 9/11 attacks. In this he has taken the right course - taking the war to the enemy. The prior administration brushed off the growing threat, even after repeated attacks. Bush has correctly analyzed the problem and has taken overdue action. So far, things are working out quite nicely although some tactical problems are still being worked. Overall, Bush deserves an \"A\" for defense and security. This is really the opening stages of WW IV.

Economically, the country had experienced a recession after an exceptionally long and overwrought expansion. He\'s handled it well, prescribed the right and measured remedies, and set us up for a healthy recovery. I\'m in one of the most hard-hit areas (SIlicon Valley) and while unemployment is high (~8%) the overall system is not particularly strained - a recession without depression. One can argue about the specifics of his tax cuts but in general they are good for the economy.

Energy is one issue I give Bush credit for pushing in the right direction. We\'re finally getting some action on a new Energy bill although Congress has been the hold-up.

I\'d say that most Americans think he\'s doing a pretty good job overall. The dissenters are the hard-core left Democrats who stand to benefit politically from bad news and so grossly exagerate any morsel of gloom-and-doom they can find. These leftists are much OVER-represented in the chattering classes, those controlling our media. Don\'t believe everything you hear or read.

If your impression is that Bush \"hasn\'t got a sodden clue\" or calling him a \"Rambo\", then you haven\'t been given a good picture.

I suspect that history will regard him as one of our great presidents, maybe a cross between James Madison and Andrew Jackson.

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I have the bad feeling that they are going to lose the 2006 elections as well.. The CDU is more popular than the SPD, but I just don\'t see any of the candidates from them doing well against Schröder...


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I´m a bit more optimistic on that one [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] You´re right about the CDU not having the right candidate though I think that was the problem the last time round too. Did you see that debate on TV ? Total waste of time [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
If germany changes government then maybe the UK will too.

CJ

[Charisma]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If your impression is that Bush \"hasn\'t got a sodden clue\" or calling him a \"Rambo\", then you haven\'t been given a good picture.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
He for sure ain\'t Rambo. Bush never saw combat during the Vietnam war, because he remained in the US with the national guard.

On the other hand he did a damn well job painting such a picture [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
Remember the fighter jet? And what about the Elite Force action figure [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Charisma]

Holy cow! There\'s another figure as well. This one talks! Probably telling a lot of crap [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

And a fighting one too!

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Bush never saw combat during the Vietnam war, because he remained in the US with the national guard.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> You´re right, he was probably busy crapping his pants or even more likely, couldn´t even find it on the map. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] (yes I know that´s pretty cheeky) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Whitehall]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
He was probably busy crapping his pants or even more likely, couldn´t even find it on the map.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Unfortunately, this is what increasingly passes a public discourse amongst Bush\'s detractors. This certainly doesn\'t allow us to form a consensus so we can live in a civil society together nor does it help build a community.

Frankly, I feel he has shown great courage in dealing with the issues. His pressing on with a policy has people throwing insults at him like your\'s.

Just being president of the US carries a greater physical risk than fighting in Iraq. We\'ve had, what?, six presidents shot or shot at on the job amongst 43 for a casualty rate of 14%. That would correspond to almost 20,000 killed or wounded amongst our 140,000 troops in Iraq.