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  1. #1
    Phero Enthusiast nonscents's Avatar
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    Default Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

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    I am not a Freudian, but I found some juicy quotes from the footnotes of his Civilization and Its Discontents (trans. James Strachey, WW Norton, New York, 1961).

    From Chapter IV:

    <font color=\"blue\"> The organic periodicity of the sexual process has persisted, it is true, but its effect on psychical excitation has rather been reversed. This change seems most likely to be connected with the diminution of the olfactory stimuli by means of which the menstrual process produced an effect on the male psyche. Their role was taken over by visual excitations, which in contrast to the intermittent olfactory stimuli, were able to maintain a permanent effect. The taboo on menstruation is derived from this ‘organic repression’, as a defence against a phase of development that has been surmounted. </font>

    A few pages later:

    <font color=\"blue\"> The genitals, too, give rise to strong sensations of smell which many people cannot tolerate and which spoil sexual intercourse for them. Thus we should find that the deepest root of the sexual repression which advances along with civilization is the organic defence of the new form of life achieved with man’s erect gait against earlier animal existence.
    </font>
    I mostly put this out there for the general edification of the board. But I do have some comments of my own.

    He seems to give primacy to the male in human reproduction. (No surprise, from Freud!) “The organic periodicity” refers to men smelling women’s stage of sexual readiness. No mention of women choosing men by their chemical signals.

    When he discusses the “strong sensations of smell . . . which spoil sexual intercourse” one has to wonder what exactly he means. He could be referring to general body odor, which might dampen one’s sexual interest. But when he says “spoil sexual intercourse” I wonder if he means that person A is attract to person B and they decide to have intercourse. As this act of physical union proceeds person B becomes more odoriferous. Person A now cannot tolerate person B’s odor and the act is spoiled. Someone help me here.

    Has this ever happened to you? (Note, we are talking about genital intercourse here, not oral sex.)

  2. #2
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    Great stuff, nonscents.

    Organic periodicity of the sexual process describes well the increased testosterone level in both men and women when a woman ovulates. Men most like the smell of ovulatory women, and women are much more sensitive to musky males scents that correlate well with male testosterone levels. It\'s almost as if nature planned the process (sarcastically said) to ensure properly timed reproductive sexual behavior (as this pheromone driven behavior is typical of all mammals).

    The menstrual taboo is probably due to the fact that a progesteronic pheromone decreases testosterone levels in men, which means that menstruating women produce a negative signal that is most likely as readily received (albeit unconsciously) as the ovulatory phase signal (due to estrogenic pheromones).

    It appears that Freud (and, perhaps, his correspondents) must have known some stinky women. It sounds like he couldn\'t even finish a copulatory act due to the stench. (Was Freud gay?) Bacterial overgrowth or vaginal parasites (e.g., trichomonas) might have been the problem which allowed Freud to assist in sexual repression by making up theories that have absolutely no biological basis in fact. In this representation his theories might cause others to wonder how our species survived when sex was almost intolerable due to the odor. Could Freud have predicted the increasing popularity of oral-genital sex; or could any other psychiatrist/psychologist explain such an animalistic act?

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    Phero Guru Sagacious1420's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Great stuff, nonscents.

    Organic periodicity of the sexual process describes well the increased testosterone level in both men and women when a woman ovulates. Men most like the smell of ovulatory women, and women are much more sensitive to musky males scents that correlate well with male testosterone levels. It\'s almost as if nature planned the process (sarcastically said) to ensure properly timed reproductive sexual behavior (as this pheromone driven behavior is typical of all mammals).

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Perhaps, not so much that nature \"planned\" it, but that nature has timed it. While some species \"seem\" to be on a regular copulatory schedule, it seems that such a schedule can be influenced by olfactory stimuli, e.g. pheromones.

    While you (and others) may disagree, I believe that this is why copulins may be effective for males. The possiblity that it works as a signal for reproduction, outside of a normal ovulatory schedule. That is to say that a woman\'s tendency to engage in sex may be altered slightly or, perhaps, may be discreetly and acutely influenced by other signals than merely periodic hormonal fluctuations. Imagine a scenario where a woman is close to the peak of her cycle and she is exposed to certain pheromonal influences that may signal an acute attemmpt to procreate vs. a strictly periodic hormonal regulation.

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    The menstrual taboo is probably due to the fact that a progesteronic pheromone decreases testosterone levels in men, which means that menstruating women produce a negative signal that is most likely as readily received (albeit unconsciously) as the ovulatory phase signal (due to estrogenic pheromones).

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Interesting, because when I have been w/ the same girl in a long term relationship, we would rather frequently engage in sex during such a peiod. Often due to necessity...we both had very demanding work schedules. The thing is that she would always initiate such activity. She was really horny and this would occur during her period. Not at the times I might normally consider to be a peak phase in her cycle. I wouldn\'t consider these sessions to be that enjoyable, they seemed rather utilitarian. I can say that her scent was variable dependent upon the point in her cycle.

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    It appears that Freud (and, perhaps, his correspondents) must have known some stinky women. It sounds like he couldn\'t even finish a copulatory act due to the stench. (Was Freud gay?) Bacterial overgrowth or vaginal parasites (e.g., trichomonas) might have been the problem which allowed Freud to assist in sexual repression by making up theories that have absolutely no biological basis in fact. In this representation his theories might cause others to wonder how our species survived when sex was almost intolerable due to the odor. Could Freud have predicted the increasing popularity of oral-genital sex; or could any other psychiatrist/psychologist explain such an animalistic act?


    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Fascinating! Was Fraud (not a typo) gay? Many (myself included) would argue that Fraud was, indeed, gay. He certainly seems more obsessed w/ the penis than anyone in history. One of his greatest contributions may be the construct of projection, of which he made a career. And of which he was incredibly guilty. Why is it that for Fraud a cigar is just sometimes a cigar, but for any other male it was a latent expression of homosexuality. Please!

    I doubt that Fraud would have been able to predict the popularity of oral sex based on such a theory. That doesn\'t mean that he wouldn\'t have engaged in oral sex himself...of what type, I\'ll that leave up to you to decide. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

    Is it possible that the poularity of oral sex hasn\'t, necessarily, increased, but more that ppl aren\'t as apprehensive about discussing such things? I would think that oral sex is very natural. Since pheromones can have such a distinctive influence on sexual behavior, it only makes sense that getting your nose close to a source of natural phero production (e.g., the crotch) would encourage one to \"soak up\" as much of this natural stimulant as possible. Therefore, shouldn\'t oral sex be as much a part of \"organic\" sex as intercourse?

  4. #4
    Sadhu
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    Not sure Freud was gay, bi perhaps- he did have a daughter. Incidently there´s a TV film being made (not shown yet) in which Freud plays a vital role. It´s based on real life, so I´m told. I look forward to seeing it that´s for sure.

    CJ

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    Sadhu
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    It´s true that women smell (at least in that area) very different during menstruation, how could we not. Not very pleasant for many I´m sure.
    It also helps signal that `no I don´t wanna go home with you, I´m not interested in sex now, I´m too busy bleeding, getting cramps, feeling like death and already have a tampon shoved up there already´... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

    The smell/copulin production tend to be the highest from the ovulation phase onwards I´ve found, generally speaking.


  6. #6
    Pheromaniac Sexyredhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    It may signal that, but that\'s not generally what I want. The best cure for cramps, at least for me, is a good night of f!cking. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] And I\'m really, really horny the first few days of my period, although I\'d be the first to admit sex during one\'s period is not the most preferred time. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

  7. #7
    Sadhu
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    Oh I didn´t read JVK´s post before I wrote mine sorry [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

    I´ve just found another possible reason for Freuds comments about `smelly women´: In the olden days, personal hygene wasn´t high on the agenda and they didn´t have the kind of water system like we do know, including the quality of the water - you know what I´m getting at...
    So that´s one thing - cleaning during menstruation.

    Another thing is that for a long time (and yes even something like 10 years ago) a lot of people actually believed that during mentruation, it would be bad for a woman to wash thoroughly down there. Sounds ridiculous and of course it is.
    So I reckon that the women Freud was referring to could have simply not been very busy washing at that time.

    Any more thoughts on this?

    CJ

  8. #8
    Phero Enthusiast nonscents's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    When he talks of odor spoiling intercourse, he is not talking about intercourse during menstruation.

    As far as people stinking more, early last century, because of their more primitive hygienic practices, don\'t tell that to the pheromone purveyors. How many times have we read the quote from Napoleon to Josephine directing her not to bathe since he\'ll be seeing her in a week? The pheromone purveyors\' line is that civilization is screwing us up by propagating the line that our bodies\' smells are bad. But since we are all going to wash anyway, the phero manufacturers are going to give us some nasty smells to put on our sanitized bodies.

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    Phero Guru Sagacious1420's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    Perhaps I should have been more clear in the above post. By a change in her scent I was referring to the smell of her skin. It seemed to be change a little throughout her cycle. I am also familiar w/ the other type of scent that CJ mentioned and no it isn\'t very \"inviting\". Perhaps that\'s why I am left w/ the impression that sex at this time was more utilitarian (i.e., to relieve sexual tension, if you will) than it was for the sake of just pleasure.

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    Phero Enthusiast nonscents's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    JVK\'s book mentions that a woman who want to nail a man will put her menstrual secretions in his drink. (No, this does not have my seal of ethical approval, but JVK claims it is anthropological fact.) It\'s supposed to make the man find her attractive.

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    Pheromaniac Sexyredhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    JVK\'s book mentions that a woman who want to nail a man will put her menstrual secretions in his drink

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    I wonder how they figured this one out?? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

    Ick.

  12. #12
    Sadhu
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    JVK\'s book mentions that a woman who want to nail a man will put her menstrual secretions in his drink.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    The BLOOD? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] I´d never do that. Yuck. There´s no way I´m gonna squeeze out my tampon and make someone drink my blood in order to get laid. I´m mean honestly, it ain´t that hard for a woman to find a guy.

  13. #13
    Sadhu
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    When he talks of odor spoiling intercourse, he is not talking about intercourse during menstruation.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Oh sorry, I guess I didn´t read carefully enough or just misunderstood or something else....
    Maybe he was just a bit prude....?

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    How many times have we read the quote from Napoleon to Josephine directing her not to bathe since he\'ll be seeing her in a week?

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    That´s a myth / legen, I know. However we don´t know if he actually meant for her not to wash for a whole week ( assuming this whole thing is true) or what kind of personal lingo these two had.
    Plus, I bet she would have washed, after all she was a bit of a slag and slpet around behind his back [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] And any woman knows that you had better wash/shower after you screw another man before you go home to your husband or bf [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]


    I think that people, generally speaking don´t have such an obvious phero sig, is not just because we shower a lot these days (I hope everyone does) but predominantly because we tend to live kinda unhealthy. The food we eat, diseases, (air) pollution etc.
    There´s so many factors at work ....

    People reckon that their natural bodyscent is better, but to be honest, They´ve never smelled their own BO I think. The natural body scent is nice or can be, but BO is just plain nasty.

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    Sadhu
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    I wonder how they figured this one out??

    Ick.


    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    They must have gone and tried it on some poor bastard [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    JVK\'s book mentions that a woman who want to nail a man will put her menstrual secretions in his drink.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    The BLOOD? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] I´d never do that. Yuck. There´s no way I´m gonna squeeze out my tampon and make someone drink my blood in order to get laid. I´m mean honestly, it ain´t that hard for a woman to find a guy.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    That is (or was) probably a habit in some African tribe. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

  16. #16
    Sadhu
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    Default Re: Sigmund Freud on smelly sex

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    That is (or was) probably a habit in some African tribe.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Nah, I bet it was a dutch thang [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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