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    Default An interesting article on DU

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    Found this at another forum I visit regularly. It\'s really interesting:


    Death By Slow Burn -
    How America Nukes Its Own Troops
    What ´Support Our Troops´ Really Means
    By Amy Worthington - The Idaho Observer

    On March 30, an AP photo featured an American pro-war activist holding a sign: \"Nuke the evil scum, it worked in 1945!\" That´s exactly what George Bush has done. America´s mega-billion dollar war in Iraq has been indeed a NUCLEAR WAR.

    Bush-Cheney have delivered upon 17 million Iraqis tons of depleted uranium (DU) weapons, a \"liberation\" gift that will keep on giving. Depleted uranium is a component of toxic nuclear waste, usually stored at secure sites. Handlers need radiation protection gear.

    Over a decade ago, war-makers decided to incorporate this lethal waste into much of the Pentagon´s weaponry. Navy ships carrying Phalanx rapid fire guns are capable of firing thousands of DU rounds per minute.(1) Tomahawk missiles launched from U.S. ships and subs are DU-tipped.(2) The M1 Abrams tanks are armored with DU.(3) These and British Challenger II tanks are tightly packed with DU shells, which continually irradiate troops in or near them.(4) The A-10 \"tank buster\" aircraft fires DU shells at machines and people on the battlefield.(5)

    DU munitions are classified by a United Nations resolution as illegal weapons of mass destruction. Their use breaches all international laws, treaties and conventions forbidding poisoned weapons calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.

    Ironically, support for our troops will extend well beyond the war in Iraq. Americans will be supporting Gulf War II veterans for years as they slowly and painfully succumb to radiation poisoning. U.S and British troops deployed to the area are the walking dead. Humans and animals, friends and foes in the fallout zone are destined to a long downhill spiral of chronic illness and disability. Kidney dysfunction, lung damage, bloody stools, extreme fatigue, joint pain, unsteady gait, memory loss and rashes and, ultimately, cancer and premature death await those exposed to DU.

    Award-winning journalist Will Thomas wrote: \"As the last Gulf conflict so savagely demonstrated, GI immune systems reeling from multiple doses of experimental vaccines offer little defense against further exposure to chemical weapons, industrial toxins, stress, caffeine, insect repellent and radiation leftover from the last war. This is a war even the victors will lose.\"(6)

    When a DU shell is fired, it ignites upon impact. Uranium, plus traces of plutonium and americium, vaporize into tiny, ceramic particles of radioactive dust. Once inhaled, uranium oxides lodge in the body and emit radiation indefinitely. A single particle of DU lodged in a lymph node can devastate the entire immune system according to British radiation expert Roger Coghill.(7)

    The Royal Society of England published data showing that battlefield soldiers who inhale or swallow high levels of DU can suffer kidney failure within days.(8) Any soldier now in Iraq who has not inhaled lethal radioactive dust is not breathing. In the first two weeks of combat, 700 Tomahawks, at a cost of $1.3 million each, blasted Iraqi real estate into radioactive mushroom clouds.(9) Millions of DU tank rounds liter the terrain. Cleanup is impossible because there is no place on the planet to put so much contaminated debris.

    Bush Sr.´s Gulf War I was also a nuclear war. 320 tons of depleted uranium were used against Iraq in 1991.(10) A 1998 report by the U.S. Agency for Toxic Substances confirms that inhaling DU causes symptoms identical to those claimed by many sick vets with Gulf War Syndrome.(11) The Gulf War Veterans Association reports that at least 300,000 Gulf War I vets have now developed incapacitating illnesses.(12) To date, 209,000 vets have filed claims for disability benefits based on service-connected injuries and illnesses from combat in that war.(13)

    Dr. Asaf Durakovic, a professor of nuclear medicine at Georgetown University, is a former army medical expert. He told nuclear scientists in Paris last year that tens of thousands of sick British and American soldiers are now dying from radiation they encountered during Gulf War I. He found that 62 percent of sick vets tested have uranium isotopes in their organs, bones, brains and urine.(14) Laboratories in Switzerland and Finland corroborated his findings.

    In other studies, some sick vets were found to be expressing uranium in even their semen. Their sexual partners often complained of a burning sensation during intercourse, followed by their own debilitating illnesses.(15)

    Nothing compares to the astronomical cancer rates and birth defects suffered by the Iraqi people who have endured vicious nuclear chastisement for years.(16) U.S. air attacks against Iraq since 1993 have undoubtedly employed nuclear munitions. Pictures of grotesquely deformed Iraqi infants born since 1991 are overwhelming.(17) Like those born to Gulf War I vets, many babies born to troops now in Iraq will also be afflicted with hideous deformities, neurological damage and/or blood and respiratory disorders.(18)

    As an Army health physicist, Dr. Doug Rokke was dispatched to the Middle East to salvage DU-contaminated tanks after Gulf War I. His Geiger counters revealed that the war zones of Iraq and Kuwait were contaminated with up to 300 millirems an hour in beta and gamma radiation plus thousands to millions of counts per minute in alpha radiation. Rokke recently told the media: \"The whole area is still trashed. It is hotter than heck over there still. This stuff doesn´t go away.\"(19)

    DU remains \"hot\" for 4.5 billion years. Radiation expert Dr. Helen Caldicott confirms that the dust-laden winds of DU-contaminated war zones \"will remain effectively radioactive for the rest of time.\"(20) The murderous dust storms which ensnared coalition troops during the first few days of the current invasion are sure to have significant health consequences.

    Rokke and his cleanup team were issued only flimsy dust masks for their dangerous work. Of the 100 people on Rokke´s decontamination team, 30 have already \"dropped dead.\" Rokke himself is ill with radiation damage to lungs and kidneys. He has brain lesions, skin pustules, chronic fatigue, continual wheezing and painful fibromyalgia. Rokke warns that anyone exposed to DU should have adequate respiratory protection and special coveralls to protect their clothing because, he says, you can´t get uranium particles off your clothing.

    The U.S. military insists that DU on the battlefield is not a problem. Colonel James Naughton of the U.S. Army Material Command recently told the BBC that complaints about DU \"had no medical basis.\"(21) The military´s own documents belie this. A 1993 Pentagon document warned that \"when soldiers inhale or ingest DU dust they incur a potential increase in cancer risk.\"(22) A U.S. Army training manual requires anyone who comes within 25 meters of DU-contaminated equipment to wear respiratory and skin protection.(23) The U.S. Army Environmental Policy Institute admitted: \"If DU enters the body, it has the potential to generate significant medical consequences.\"(24) The Institute also stated that, if the troops were to realize what they had been exposed to, \"the financial implications of long-term disability payments and healthcare costs would be excessive.\"(25) For pragmatic reasons, DOD chooses to lie and deny.

    Dr. Rokke confirms that the Pentagon lies about DU dangers and is criminally negligent for neglecting medical attention needed by DU-contaminated vets. He predicts that the numbers of American troops to be sickened by DU from Gulf War II will be staggering.(26) As they gradually sicken and suffer a slow burn to their graves, the Pentagon will, as it did after Gulf War I, deny that their misery and death is a result of their tour in Iraq.

    Dr. Rokke´s candor has cost him his career. Likewise, Dr. Durakovic´s radiation studies on Gulf War I vets were not popular with U.S. officials. Dr. Durakovic was reportedly told his life was in danger if he continued his research. He left the U.S. to continue his research abroad.(27)

    Naive young coalition soldiers now in Iraq are likely unaware of how deadly their battlefield environment is. Gulf War I troops were kept in ignorance. Soldiers handled DU fragments and some wore these lethal nuggets around their necks. A DU projectile emits more radiation in five hours than allowed in an entire year under civilian radiation exposure standards. \"We didn´t know any better,\" Kris Kornkven told Nation magazine. \"We didn´t find out until long after we were home that there even was such a thing as DU.\"(28)

    George Bush´s ongoing war in Afghanistan is also a nuclear war. Shortly after 9-11, the U.S. announced it would stockpile tactical nuclear weapons including small neutron bombs, nuclear mines and shells suited to commando warfare in Afghanistan.(29) In late September, 2001, Bush and Russian president Vladimir Putin agreed that the U.S. would use tactical nuclear weapons in Afghanistan while Putin would employ nuclear weapons against the Chechnyans.(30)

    Describing the Pentagon´s B-61-11 burrowing nuke bomb, George Smith writes in the Village Voice: \"Built ram tough with a heavy metal casing for smashing through the earth and concrete, the B-61 explodes with the force of an estimated 340,000 tons of TNT. It is lots of bang for the buck, literally two apocalypse bombs in one, a boosted plutonium firecracker called the primary and a heavy hydrogen secondary for that good old-fashioned H-bomb fireball.\"(31)

    Drought-stricken Afghanistan´s underground water supply is now contaminated by these nuclear weapons.(32) Experts with the Uranium Medical Research Center report that urine samples of Afghanis show the highest level of uranium ever recorded in a civilian population. Afghani soldiers and civilians are reported to have died after suffering intractable vomiting, severe respiratory problems, internal bleeding and other symptoms consistent with radiation poisoning. Dead birds still perched in trees are found partially melted with blood oozing from their mouths.(33)

    Afghanistan´s new president, Hamid Karzai, is a puppet installed by Washington. Under the protection of American soldiers, Karzai´s regime is setting a new record for opium production. Both UN and U.S. reports confirm that the huge Afghani opium harvest of 2002 makes Afghanistan the world´s leading opium producer.(34) Thanks to nuclear weapons, Afghanistan is now safe for the Bush-Cheney narcotics industry.(35) ABC News asserts that keeping the \"peace\" in Afghanistan will require decades of allied occupation.(36) For years to come, \"peacekeepers\" will be eating, drinking and breathing the \"hot\" carcinogenic pollution they have helped the Pentagon inflict upon that nation for organized crime.

    As governor of Arkansas during the Iran-Contra era, Bill Clinton laundered $multi-millions in cocaine profits for then vice-president George Bush Sr.(37) As a partner in the Bush family´s notorious crime machine, President Clinton committed U.S. troops to NATO´s campaign in the Balkans, a prime heroin production and trans-shipment area. DOD´s campaign to control and reorganize the drug trade there for the Bush mafia was yet another nuclear project.

    For years, the U.S. and NATO fired DU missiles, bullets and shells across the Balkans, nuking the peoples of Serbia, Bosnia and Kosovo. As DU munitions were slammed into chemical plants, the environment became hideously toxic, also endangering the peoples of Albania, Macedonia, Greece, Italy, Austria and Hungary. By 1999, UN investigators reported that an estimated 12 tons of DU had caused irreparable damage to the Yugoslavian environment, with agriculture, livestock and air water, and public health all profoundly damaged.(38)

    Scientists confirm that citizens of the Balkans are excreting uranium in their urine.39 In 2001, a Yugoslavian pathologist reported that hundreds of Bosnians have died of cancer from NATO´s DU bombardment.(40) Many NATO peacekeepers in the Balkans now suffer ill health. Their leukemias, cancers and other maladies are dubbed the \"Balkans Syndrome.\" Richard Coghill predicts that DU weapons used in Balkans campaign will result in at least 10,000 cases of fatal cancer.(41)

    U.S. citizens at home are also paying a heavy price for criminal militarism gone mad. DOD is a pollution monster. The General Accounting Office (GAO) found 9,181 dangerous military sites in USA that will require $billions to rehabilitate. The GAO reports that DOD has been both slothful and deceitful in its clean-up obligations.(42) The Pentagon is now pressing Congress to exempt it from all environmental laws so that it may pollute and poison free from liability.(43)

    The Navy uses prime fishing grounds off the coast of Washington state to test fire DU ammunition. In January, Washington State Rep. Jim McDermott chastised the Navy: \"On one hand you have required soldiers to have DU safety training and to wear protective gear when handling DU...and submarines must stay clear of DU-contaminated waters. These policies indicate there is cause for concern....On the other hand the Department of Defense has repeatedly denied that DU poses any danger whatsoever. There has been no remorse about leaving tons of DU equipment in the soil in foreign countries, and there appears to be no remorse about leaving it in the waters of your own country.\"(44)

    DU has been used in military practice maneuvers in Indiana, Florida, New Mexico, Massachusetts, Maryland and Puerto Rico. After the Navy tested DU weaponry on the Puerto Rican island of Vieques, one third of the island´s population developed serious illness. Many people show high levels of uranium in their bodies. Hundreds have filed a class action suit against the Navy for $100 million, claiming DU contamination has caused widespread cancers.(45)

    The Navy´s Fallon Naval Air Station near Fallon, Nevada, is a quagmire of 26 toxic waste sites. It is also a target practice zone for DU bombs and missiles. Area residents report bizarre illnesses, including 17 children who have contracted leukemia within five years. A survey of groundwater in the Fallon area showed nearly half of area wells are contaminated with radioactive materials.(46)

    The materials for DU weaponry have been processed mainly at three nuclear plants in Kentucky, Ohio and Tennessee, where workers handling uranium contaminated with plutonium have suffered for decades with cancers and debilitating maladies similar to Gulf War Syndrome.(47)

    Emboldened by power-grabbing successes made possible by his administration´s devious 9-11 project, President Bush asserts that the U.S. has the right to attack any nation it deems a potential threat. He told West Point in 2002, \"If we wait for threats to fully materialize, we will have waited too long.\"(48) Thus, it is certain that Bush-Cheney future pre-emptive nuclear wars are lined up like idling jets on a runway. Both Cheney´s Halliburton Corp. and the Bush family´s Carlyle Group are profiteers in U.S. defense contracts, so endless war is just good business.(49)

    The Washington Post reported that the Pentagon will create special nuclear weapons for use on North Korea´s underground nuclear facilities.(50) Next August, U.S. war makers will meet to consolidate plans for a new generation of \"mini,\" \"micro\" and \"tiny\" nuclear bombs and bunker busters. These will be added to the U.S. arsenal perhaps for use against non-nuclear third-world nations such as Iran, Syria, Lebanon.(51)

    The solution? Americans must stop electing ruthless criminals to rule this nation. We must convince fellow citizens that villains like Saddam Hussein are made in the U.S. as rationale for endless corporate war profits. Saddam was placed in power by the CIA.(52) For years U.S. government agencies, under auspices of George Bush Sr., supplied him with chemical and biological weapons.(53) Our national nuclear laboratories, along with Unisys, Dupont and Hewlett-Packard, sold Saddam materials for his nuclear program.(54) Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton in the late 90s when its subsidiaries signed $73 million in new contracts to further supply Saddam.(55) The wicked villain of Iraq was nurtured for decades as a cash-cow by U.S. military-industrial piranhas.

    If America truly supports its troops, it must stop sending them into nuclear holocaust for the enrichment of thugs. Time is running out. If the DU-maniacs at the Pentagon and their coven of nuclear arms peddlers are not harnessed, America will have no able-bodied fighting forces left. All people of the earth will become grossly ill, hideously deformed and short- lived. We must succeed in the critical imperative to face reality and act decisively. Should we fail, there will be no place to hide from Bush-Cheney´s merciless nuclear orgies yet to come or from the inevitable nuclear retaliation these orgies will surely breed.


    Endnotes

    1.\"DOD Launches Depleted Uranium Training,\" Linda Kozaryn, American Forces Press Service, 8-13-99.

    2.\"Nukes of the Gulf War,\"John Shirley, Zess@aol.com. See this article in archives at www.gulfwarvets.com.

    3. BBC News, \"US To Use Depleted Uranium,\" March 18, 2003; U.S. General Accounting Office, Operation Desert Storm: \"Early Performance Assessment of Bradley and Abrams,\" 1-2-92.

    4.\"Nukes of the Gulf War,\" op. cit.

    5. Ibid.

    6. \"Invading Hiroshima,\" William Thomas, 2-4-2003, www.willthomas.net

    7. \"US Shells Leave Lethal Legacy,\" Toronto Star, July 31, 1999; also \"Radiation Tests for Peacekeepers in the Balkans Exposed to Depleted Uranium,\" www.telegraph.co.uk, 12-31-02.

    8. \"Depleted Uranium May Stop Kidneys In Days,\" Rob Edwards, New Scientist.com, 3-12-02; also \"Uranium Weapons Too Hot to Handle,\" Rob Edwards, New Scientist.co.uk, 6-9-99.

    9. \"Navy Seeks Cash for More Tomahawks,\" David Rennie in Washington, Telegraph Group Limited, 1-4-03, news.telegraph.co.uk.

    10. \"Going Nuclear in Iraq--DU Cancers Mount Daily,\" Ramzi Kysia, CounterPunch.org, 12-31-01.

    11.\"Depleted Uranium Symptoms Match US Report As Fears Spread,\" Peter Beaumont, The Observer (UK) 1-14-01, www.guardianlimited.co.uk.

    12. \"Gulf War Illnesses Affect 300,000 Vets,\" Ellen Tomson, Pioneer Press, www.pioneerplanet.com. See also American Gulf War Veterans Association at www.gulfwarvets.com.

    13. \"2 of Every 5 Gulf War Vets Are On Disability: 209,000 Make VA Claims,\" World Net Daily, 1-28-03, WorldNetDaily.com.

    14. \"Research on Sick Gulf Vets Revisited, \"New York Times, 1-29-01; \"Tests Show Gulf War Victims Have Uranium Poisoning,\" Jonathon Carr-Brown and Martin Meissonnier, The Sunday Times (UK) 9-3-02.

    15. \"Catastrophe: Ill Gulf Vets Contaminated Partners With DU,\" The Halifax Herald Limited, Clare Mellor, 2-09-01. This article is available in archives at www.rense.com.

    16. \"Iraqi Cancer, Birth Defects Blamed on US Depleted Uranium,\" Seattle Post- Intelligencer, 11-12-02; \"US Depleted Uranium Yields Chamber of Horrors in Southern Iraq, Andy Kershaw, The Independent (London) 12-4-01.

    17. \"The Environmental and Human Health Impacts of the Gulf War Region with Special References to Iraq,\" Ross Mirkarimi, The Arms Control Research Centre, May 1992. See also Gulf War Syndrome Birth Defects in Iraq at www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html.

    18. \"The Tiny Victims of Desert Storm, Has Our Country Abandoned Them?,\" Life Magazine, November 1995; \"Birth Defects Killing Gulf War Babies,\" Los Angeles Times, 11-14-94; \"Depleted Uranium, The Lingering Poison,\" Alex Kirby, BBC News Online, 6-7-99.

    19. \"Depleted Uranium, A Killer Disaster,\" Travis Dunn, Disaster News.net, 12-29-02.

    20. San Francisco Chronicle, 10-10-02.

    21. \"US To Use Depleted Uranium,\" BBC News, 3-18-03.

    22. \"Depleted Uranium Symptoms Match US Report As Fears Spread,\" Peter Beaumont, The Observer (UK) 1-14-01.

    23. \"Iraqi Cancer, Birth Defects Blamed on US Depleted Uranium,\" Seattle Post- Intelligencer, 11-12-02.

    24. \"US To Use Depleted Uranium,\" BBC News, 3-18-03.

    25. US Army Environmental Policy Institute: Health and Environmental Consequences of Depleted Uranium in the U.S. Army, Technical Report, June 1995.

    26. \"Pentagon Depleted Uranium No Health Risk,\" Dr. Doug Rokke, 3-15-03; also \"The Terrible, Tragic Toll of Depleted Uranium,\" Address by Dr. Rokke before congressional leaders in Washington, D.C.,12-30-02; also \"Gulf War Casualties,\" Dr. Doug Rokke, www.traprockpeace.org. 9-30-02.

    27.\"Tests Show Gulf War Victims Have Uranium Poisoning,\" Sunday Times (UK), Jonathon Carr-Brown and Martin Meissonnier, 9-3-00.

    28. \"The Pentagon´s Radioactive Bullet: An Investigative Report,\" Bill Mesler, The Nation, 5-28-99, see www.thenation.com/ issue/961021/1021mesl.htm.

    29. \"Tactical Nukes Deployed In Afghanistan,\" World Net Daily, 10-7-01. 30. Ibid.

    31. \"The B-61 Bomb,The Burrowing Nuke\" George Smith,VillageVoice.com 12-29-02.; also \"Bunker-busting US Tactical Nuclear Bombs, Nowhere to Hide,\" Kennedy Grey, Wired.com, 10-9-01.

    32.\"Perpetual Death From America,\" Mohammed Daud Miraki, Afghan-American Interviews, 2-24-03; also \"Dying of Thirst,\" Fred Pearce, New Scientist, 11-17-2001.

    33. Ibid.

    34. \"Afghanistan Displaces Myanmar as Top Heroin Producer,\" Agence France-Presse, 3-01-03. This article is at www.copvcia.com.;also \"Opium Trade Flourishing In the `New Afghanistan,´\" Reuters, 3-3-03.

    35. \"The Bush-Cheney Drug Empire,\" Michael C. Ruppert, Nexus Magazine, February-March 2000; The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade, Alfred W. McCoy, Lawrence Hill & Co., revised edition due May 2003; Drugging of America, Rodney Stich, Diablo Western Press, 1999; \"Blood for Oil, Drugs for Arms,\" Bob Djurdjevic, Truth In Media, April 2000, www.truthinmedia.org. 36. ABC News, February 27, 2003.

    37. Compromised, Clinton Bush and the CIA, Terry Reed and John Cummings, S.P.I. Books, 1994; The Clinton Chronicles and The Mena Cover-up, Citizens for Honest Government, 1996; \"The Crimes of Mena, Grey Money,\" Ozark Gazette, 1995 (see www.copvcia.com.)

    38. \"Damage to Yugoslav Environment is Immense, Says a UN Report,\" Bob Djurdjevic, 7-4-99, truthinmedia.org. This report was submitted to the UN Security Council on June 9, 1999; also, \"New Depleted Uranium Study Shows Clear Damage,\" BBC News,8-28-99; also \"NATO Issued Warning About Toxic Ammo,\" Associated Press, 01-08-01.

    39. CounterPunch.org, 12-28-01.

    40. \"Hundreds Died of Cancer After DU Bombing--Doctor,\" Reuters, 1-13-01.

    41.\"Depleted Uranium Threatens Balkan Cancer Epidemic,\" BBC News, 7-30-99.

    42. \"Many Defense Sites Still Hazardous,\" Associated Press, 9-24-02; also Old US Weapons Called Hidden Danger, Los Angeles Times, 11-25-02.

    43. \"Pentagon Seeks Freedom to Pollute Land, Air and Sea,\" Andrew Gumbel in L.A., 3-13-03, Independent Digital (UK) Ltd.

    44. \"Radioactive DU Ammo Is Tested in Fish Areas,\" Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 1-11-03; Letter from Rep. McDermott to Department of the Navy: see \"Navy Fired DU Rounds Into Waters Off Coast of Washington,\" 1-20-03, rense.com.

    45.\"Cancer Rates Soar From US Military Use of DU On `Enchanted Island,´\" www.telegraph.co.uk, 2-5-01; also \"Navy Shells With Depleted Uranium Fired in Puerto Rico,\" Fox News Online, 5-28-99.

    46. \"The Fallon, NV Cancer Cluster And a US Navy Bombing,\" Jeffrey St. Clair, CounterPunch.org, 8-10-02.

    47. \"DU Shells Are Made of A Potentially Lethal Cocktail of Nuclear Waste,\" Jonathon Carr-Brown, www.sunday-times.co.uk, 1-22-01.

    48. \"Preventative War Sets Perilous Precedent,\" Helen Thomas, Hearst Newspapers, 3-20-03.

    49. PIGS at the Trough, Arriana Huffington, Random House, 2003 (New York Times best seller.); also \"The Best Enemies Money Can Buy, From Hitler to Saddam Hussein to Osama bin Laden Insider Connections and the Bush Family´s Partnership With Killers of Americans;\" Mike Ruppert, From the Wilderness,10-10-01; also \"Bush Sr.´s Carlyle Group Gets Fat on War and Conflict,\" Jamie Doward, The Observer (UK), 3-25-03; also \"Halliburton Wins Contract for Iraq Oil Firefighting, Reuters, 3-7-03; also \"Cashing In-Fortunes in Profits Await Bush Circle After Iraq War, Andrew Gumbel, The Independent (London) 9-15-02; also \"War Could Be Big Business for Halliburton,\" Reuters, 3-23-03.

    50. \"Pentagon Seeks a Nuclear Digger,\" Washington Post, March 10, 2003.

    51. \"Remember: Bush Planed Iraq War Before Taking Office,\" Neil Mackay, The Sunday Herald (UK) 3-27-03; also \"US Mini-Nukes Alarm Scientists,\" The Guardian (UK) 4-18-01; also \"US Nuclear First-Strike Plan--It Keeps Getting Scarier, Jeffrey Steinberg, Executive Intelligence Review, 2-24-03.

    52. Wall Street Journal, 8-16-90: The CIA supported the Baath Party and installed Hussein as Iraqi dictator in 1968.

    53. \"United States Dual-Use Exports to Iraq and Their Impact on the Health of Persian Gulf War Veterans,\" Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs, 1992, 1994; \"U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup,\" Washington Post, 12-30-02.

    54. \"US Government, 24 US Corps Illegally Helped Iraq Build Its WMD,\" Hugh Williamson in Berlin, Financial Times, 12-19-02; \"Full List of US Weapons Suppliers To Iraq,\" Anu de Monterice, coachanu@earthlink.net, 12-19-02.

    55. Huffington, op. cit.

  2. #2
    Carpal Tunnel Whitehall's Avatar
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    Default More Bogus Propaganda

    Haven\'t we had several energetic threads on this BS before?

    Depleted uranium is just about as innocuous as lead; DU is just barely radioactive.

    All this is just anti-American propaganda of the worst sort, playing on peoples\' fears of anything nuclear.

    DU does make superior projectiles but its radioactivity does NOT contribute to its lethality.

    Go to the United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency site (www.iaea.org) and check out their report on DU.

    As I pointed out earlier, if one assumes a LOT of DU is used on the battlefield, say one tonne per square mile, the background concentration of natural uranium in the top foot of soil increases less than 10%. And NATURAL uranium is more radioactive than depleted uranium since UNdepleted uranium contains U-235 with a much shorter half-life, not to mention the accompaning daughters (radon, radium, etc.)

    Of course, the wrong source and processing of depleted uranium COULD make it more toxic. The US has two sources - enrichment plant \"tails\" and reprocessed submarine cores. We\'ve got gazillions of tons of the former and a relatively small bit of the latter. The tails are very clean and CHEAP so would be the preferred source, I\'d think. The recycled sub cores might have interesting and more toxic impurities. If the US is using recycled sub cores instead of tails, then one might have a case but it doesn\'t make any economic sense for the government to do so. Therefore I presume that we\'re using clean tails.

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    Default Re: More Bogus Propaganda

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
    DU does make superior projectiles but its radioactivity does NOT contribute to its lethality.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    That\'s right, DU is choosen because projectiles with DU core are much heavier and develope a much higher kinetic energy and velocity, no exploding on targets and such. But it\'s right too that minimal amounts of DU that enter your system can cause severe effects up to death.

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
    As I pointed out earlier, if one assumes a LOT of DU is used on the battlefield, say one tonne per square mile, the background concentration of natural uranium in the top foot of soil increases less than 10%

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    I\'d really like to have the source of that one. Beside ... one ton of material per square mile isn\'t that much.

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    Default Re: More Bogus Propaganda

    I had really hoped we were done with this topic. To date, there is no scientifically reliable evidence that DU is any more or even as dangerous to the environment or the soldiers as lead projectiles, despite the hypebole by the anti-nuc terrorists. Sometime look up the environmental effects of lead shot used at gun clubs and firing ranges just from the lead left laying around. That does not include the residual powdered lead ejected into the air with every shot fired. Lead poisening is a very real and present threat to the environment and to BOTH sides in the conflict, far more so than DU ever will be.

    George Bush\'s war is an expensive absurdity, lets not compound it with more absurdities.

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    Carpal Tunnel Whitehall's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Bogus Propaganda

    Andy,

    DU is the same toxicity as lead on a gram-to-gram basis, and by the same mechanism - heavy metal damage to the kidneys.

    I did the calculation on background concentrations of uranium. Local concentrations of uranium differ, of course, but its abundance in the Earth\'s crust is not insignificant:

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Estimated Crustal Abundance: 2.7 milligrams per kilogram

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> That\'s 2.7 ppm per http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele092.html

    If dirt weights 200 lb per cubic foot, the top foot of dirt over a square mile weights 5,576,000,000 lb. AT 2.7 ppm, there\'s 15,000 lb of uranium in that average top foot of dirt. Adding 2,000 lb of DU increases the concentration by 13.3%.

    Just how much ordinance you want to assume is shot off per unit area in a theatre of war is up to you and you can fiddle with the density of dirt if you want but the basic conclusion should be that American warfare adds little to the natural occurance of uranium over any reasonable area.

    When we go to war, we have to kill people. American policy since Sherman has been make war as violent and as painful to the enermy as we can so he will give up as soon as possible. A quick conclusion to war is the most humane solution, if fight we must. If DU weapons help make a war shorter, then its use is well worth it.

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    Default Re: More Bogus Propaganda

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    American policy since Sherman has been make war as violent and as painful to the enermy as we can so he will give up as soon as possible. A quick conclusion to war is the most humane solution, if fight we must. If DU weapons help make a war shorter, then its use is well worth it.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    I think the germans called it Blitzkrieg. But they had a crazy guy that started wars with faked reasons ... hey ... I know that from somewhere ... no, wait ... I am not gonna start this again ... It\'s just that I hate Dubja almost like I love the states.

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    Default Re: More Bogus Propaganda

    Whitlehall, s**t! Do you have to know EVERYTHING?? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    George Bush\'s war is an expensive absurdity, lets not compound it with more absurdities.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Wow! A Texan against Bush! I am most impressed..

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    Default Re: More Bogus Propaganda

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    George Bush\'s war is an expensive absurdity, lets not compound it with more absurdities.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Wow! A Texan against Bush! I am most impressed..

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    My great shame is I had hoped/ thought he would be a good president. Instead, he is screwing the american people to play his half a$$ed war games halfway around the world.

    I am not a native, I\'m transplanted.

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    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Instead, he is screwing the american people to play his half a$$ed war games halfway around the world.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Not only the American people. He\'s screwing the whole world!! What American voters have to keep in mind is that when you elect a president, you are choosing in a sense policeman of the world.

    I am surprised because I\'ve got a Texan friend who has voted Bush just because he is Texan. I am trying to tell him that (meaning him) one vote of an ignorant voter causes havoc in a remote part of the world; you just have to know it.

    When Bill Clinton came to Turkey after the major earthquake, everybody loved him and during his presidency, every Turk was a staunch supporter of America (actually Turks always have been stauch supporters of US since 1947). You will be even more surprised to know that the political party now holding office (who rejected the resolution allowing US to station troops in Turkey), is extremely pro-American. And would have been more than happy to pass the resolution, to be seen as cooperating with the US. But what caused the resolution to be rejected was extreme blatancy of the administration and the media. I am sure you have seen the cartoons depicting Turkey as a belly dancer and asking for money for the resolution. Contrary to common belief, the resolution failed for two reasons.

    1)The status of Turcomans in the Northern Iraq and the Kurdish question: Turkey was concerned about Turcomans (although ethnically both Turcomans and Kurds are Turkic, Kurds have rebelled against Turkey in the form of TERRORISM killing some 130,000 civilians + soliders throughout 20 years) because they could face a genocide in the hands of Kurds. These fears were validated when Kurds\' first duty was to attack places which held title-deeds in Mosul and Kirkuk in order to destory evidence that those places belonged to Turcomans.

    2)Fait-accompli by the US: It was shocking for Turkey to see US transports loaded with tanks coming to southern ports without asking for anything. Turkey was never consulted for such a deployment and you must appreciate the disappointment when US troops arrived like \"hey where are we unloading these things?\". Naturally Turkey said \"we have to decide it in the national assembly\". Meanwhile, the Turkish General Staff and Ministry of Foreign Affairs were against any war in Iraq and wanted unity of its neighbor (not because they loved Saddam so much, but because they didnt wanted a new nation founded by once terrorist militias from the ashes of Iraq). However General Staff and Foreign Affairs decided to negotiate with the US in order to get the resolution passed in time before US attack began. It was this time that US threatened Turkey with cutting IMF aids if the resolution would not pass and it is this time the newspapers depicted Turkey as \"after the money\". That was hardly the truth. Thus Turks were really pissed off and it was democratically concluded that the resolution would be rejected. \"Dissappointed\" by the normal functioning of democracy, US decided to cooperate with Kurdish militias to open the Nortern front. Kurds were more than happy of course because they have been trying to establish their resistance on legitimate grounds since their terrorist activities were stopped by Turkish special ops (together with the US special ops; aahh good old days) by capturing their legendary leader Abdullah Ocalan. Kurds jumped on the opportunity, hoping to get some autonomy after the war. This itself is very scary because US was supporting terrorists in a campaign against terrorism; like it did throughout the cold war as a leverage against states. But this time there was no reason to do such a thing, because Turkey was already supporting US and had US employled a normal and honest foreign policy Turks and Americans would be fighting shoulder to shoulder in the Northern front.

    When the war started, US seemed to struggle a bit. Despite all the faults of US foreign policy, Turkey decided to open its air corridors to US aircrafts to facilitate supplies to Northern front as a gesture. \"Coincidentally\" after this action, US resumed its advance. Meanwhile Colin Powell was underlining the importance of Turkey as an \"ally\" (Turkey has never been an ally. It was rather a strategic employee of the US) and denying any distortion in Turkish-American relations.

    When the war was over, Turkey was once again disappointed by the news from Northern Iraq. A kurdish state was being formed, starting with appointment of Kurdish municipals to Northern provinces (these municipals were warchieftans of Kurdish militia clans 10 years ago. Jesus!). Turkey openly declared its stance and said that it would attack any Kurdish state which would be established on the border. After this declaration Kurds denied their nationhood claims.

    Only several days ago, Turks were further irritated and this time made extremely furious by the arrest of 11 Turkish officers by US soldiers in Nortern Iraq. US troopers (together with Kurdish guerillas) had ASSAULTED a Turkish communications center and captured Turkish high ranking officers by using force and even covering their heads with sacks. This was NEVER broadcasted in American televisions. I watched CNN all day to hear what they will say about this, but NO sound. Only Bush\'s Africa visit. This of course lead to a crisis and Turkish General Staff even worked on recapture operations. But the idiot pro-American administration decided not to do anything about it. No American was willing to say something about it. US troopers released Turkish officers after 54 hours. Funnily, DC was unaware of the operation and was curious too. A joint inspection committee was formed to inspect the situation in Northern Iraq. It was found that US troops had assaulted the com center because of an intentionally wrong intel given by the Kurds. Kurds denied the fact, but later a camcorder shot by a Kurd during the operation was retrieved. We are all waiting in awe to hear what the US has to say about it.

    I am sure that you could never have guessed these when you were voting. Well, but these do happen and American media seems to misinform US citizens on the government\'s policies. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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    Default Re: More Bogus Propaganda

    So, do you think the Kurds have the right of their own country?

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    Default Re: More Bogus Propaganda

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Only several days ago, Turks were further irritated and this time made extremely furious by the arrest of 11 Turkish officers by US soldiers in Nortern Iraq. US troopers (together with Kurdish guerillas) had ASSAULTED a Turkish communications center and captured Turkish high ranking officers by using force and even covering their heads with sacks. This was NEVER broadcasted in American televisions. I watched CNN all day to hear what they will say about this, but NO sound. Only Bush\'s Africa visit. This of course lead to a crisis and Turkish General Staff even worked on recapture operations. But the idiot pro-American administration decided not to do anything about it. No American was willing to say something about it. US troopers released Turkish officers after 54 hours. Funnily, DC was unaware of the operation and was curious too. A joint inspection committee was formed to inspect the situation in Northern Iraq. It was found that US troops had assaulted the com center because of an intentionally wrong intel given by the Kurds. Kurds denied the fact, but later a camcorder shot by a Kurd during the operation was retrieved. We are all waiting in awe to hear what the US has to say about it.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    I read about it in the newspaper, and as far as I know, that was only a minor incident (not worth mentioning on CNN, when there is more important news to talk about). Apparently the American soldiers didn\'t know they were capturing turkish soldiers.

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    Default Re: More Bogus Propaganda

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    So, do you think the Kurds have the right of their own country?

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    To be able to discuss that, I must tell a bit about the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Ottoman Empire was an interesting entity. It was made up of a wide variety of ethnicities and religions. It was a Muslim empire for sure but both Christians (orthodox, catholic) and Jews lived under it without any interference on religious preferences (even Jews fleeing from Spanish oppression (I guess 15th century) were invited by the Ottoman Sultan to settle in Ottoman lands). Kurds, Turks, Greeks, Caucasians, Arabs, Hungarians, Bulgars, Armenians etc.. all lived peacefully under the Empire, until late 19th century, when Ottoman Empire was in apparent decline due to long years of maladministration and inability to catch up with technological advancements.

    I usually laugh when people use Ottoman and Turkish interchangibly, because Turkish population was only one of the ethnicities that formed up Ottoman Empire. But after the 1923 Lausanne Peace treaty (treaty which officialy established Turkish republic) Istanbul (former capital of Ottoman Empire) was given to Turkey and thus everyone believes Turkey is the heir of Ottoman Empire. Which is wrong.

    Anyway, when the Ottoman Empire fell after the WW1, Allied powers occupied Ottoman territories. This initiated a nationalist movement among Turkic (not Turkish; Turkish is a branch of Turkic identity) population. Very normally Turcomans, Kurds, Turks, Trebizonids all took their place in the movement and repelled Greek, English, French, Italian and Russian forces. Thus the Lausanne Peace Treaty was signed.

    After the war is over Turkey was a republic in which many different ethnicities lived (like Ottoman Empire).

    Kurds were never autonomous in their history. They always lived under occupation. Thus they dont have a notion of statehood. After the war, it was expected that Kurds would live peacefully like other ethnicities. But there was a problem. When the British (dont know why but these guys are the reason of most conflicts. US is still trying to clean up their mess) were occupying Ottoman territories they have drawn a really awkward borderline between Kurdish provinces and seperated Kurds. After the Lausanne treaty, some of those lands were given to Turkey and the remaining provinces (Mosul, kirkuk) were given to Iraq. Thus Kurds were divided between Turkey and Iraq. Because of this artificial seperation, Kurds rebelled both against Iraq and Turkey and wanted independence. Iraq used chemicals (which Rumsfeld once gave Saddam; believe it or not) against those rebelling Kurds. Turks instead started the hard way; trying to fight guerillas with standard foot soldiers. That was a massacre of course. After Turkey gathered some high tech weaponry (like heat seeker missiles) and developed its special ops, it gained an edge.

    Anyway. In my opinion there is some reason for their desires, but Turkey has very little to do with this. However, as Kurds resorted to brutal force and terrorism (suicide bombings, assasinations etc.) it is impossible for Turkey to accept such an entity near its border. Also what is Kurd? What is Kurdistan? Majority of total Kurds live peacefully within Turkey. Even the Kurds living in Northern Iraq arent unified, they have as well fought against each other several years ago. What irritates me is that, US is actually supporting the terrorist wing of Kurds, by arming and finaning them! What is this? I guess it was suppoed to be a wat \"against\" terror. But these guys are aiding terrorists in Northern Iraq; not the mild and political wing of Kurds.


    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    I read about it in the newspaper, and as far as I know, that was only a minor incident (not
    worth mentioning on CNN, when there is more important news to talk about). Apparently the
    American soldiers didn\'t know they were capturing turkish soldiers.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Well I personally think that arresting members of an ally\'s armed forces WITHOUT questioning, is a major and serious international incident. US soldiers were aware (at least should be aware) that they were capturing Turkish soldiers because that com station was not anonymous. It reads in huge letters TURKISH COMMUNICATION STATION. That station is not a hidden place. Secondly, the US troops were speaking Turkish, which means that they knew they were arresting TUrks. Worse, when Turkey demanded an explanation for this, US replied with a lower rank representative who had no authorisation. When Turkey decided to withdraw its representatives at Tampa Bay, US sent several high ranking officials. It is very sad to see a valued ally changing its behavior in such a damaging way.

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    Default Kurds and Turks

    This incident did get some media attention but you had to read it, not watch it. Americans were told that the captured Turks were set up on Iraqi soil. If the Turks didn\'t want to help with ousting Saddam than they get no say in what goes on WITHIN Iraq post-bellum.

    Our understanding is that the terrorist Kurdish groups have been put down - Saddam was supporting their operations in Turkey! We think that we\'re backing a group of Kurds in Iraq who have shown the ability to establish democratic institutions and the rule of law. I seriously doubt that we\'re going to allow the Iraqi Kurds to stir up trouble in Turkey.

    The bottom line is that Turkey overplayed their hand. The US is committed to the territorial integrity of Iraq and will not allow Turkish interference in Iraq. I would think that we back the rights of the Turcomen in Iraq to enjoy full rights in a democratic Iraq. Just don\'t ask that the Turcomen in Iraq to get better treatment than the Kurds in Turkey. Likewise, if Kurdistan turns out to be a well-run, safe, prosperous and just province of Iraq (as expected), it might make Turkey\'s treatment of its Kurdish minority look bad. That will be Turkey\'s problem to deal with internally.

    Americans look very favorably on Turkey and were very disappointed at the disagreements that arose between us - they cost American lives - we hope that cool heads will prevail in the months ahead.

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    Default Re: Kurds and Turks

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    If the Turks didn\'t want to help with ousting Saddam than they get no say in what goes on WITHIN Iraq post-bellum.


    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    I heard the US wants french and german troops to help out in Iraq. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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    Default Re: Kurds and Turks

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    This incident did get some media attention but you had to read it, not watch it. Americans were told that
    the captured Turks were set up on Iraqi soil. If the Turks didn\'t want to help with ousting Saddam than
    they get no say in what goes on WITHIN Iraq post-bellum.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    I LIVED it how\'bout that? Turkish personnel has been there for years and believe it or not they dont want to be there at all. They are intel team and can not fight or conduct any operation there. And they would withdraw immediately if Kurds were guaranteed to sit tight. Without such a transborder installation, it would be impossible to stop terrorists passing through the border.

    Also Turkey DID want to join the operation (although they were against it, they could be very easily manipulated). It is the inability of the US foreign policy that caused Turkey to stand back. Actually US has given no chance to Turkey at all. From the start, US did not want Turkey to be in Northern Iraq and thats why they intentionally pursued such an awkward foreign policy.

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Our understanding is that the terrorist Kurdish groups have been put down - Saddam was supporting their
    operations in Turkey! We think that we\'re backing a group of Kurds in Iraq who have shown the ability to
    establish democratic institutions and the rule of law. I seriously doubt that we\'re going to allow the Iraqi
    Kurds to stir up trouble in Turkey.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Saddam helped, true. But it is chiefly Syria that supported PKK as a leverage against the Euphrates-Tigris water dispute. (I\'ve done a thesis on this PM me if you want to know more).

    Lets say that you back up Kurds in Northern Iraq and they can establish democratic institutions. Those will be only a very little amount of people compared to total Kurdish population. Whether majority of the Kurds want autonomy or not is another question, but giving Kurds autonomy will unleash a terrible chain reaction which will spread wide beyond Americans\' comprehension. Ethnicity in that geography a very delicate issue. If you pull one brick, the whole building will collapse and the only thing you would succeed will be copying 19th century Britain. I will repeat; What is Kurd? What is their origins? How much do you know about Seljukid and Khwarazmian dynasties? Have you ever heard of Nogays and Karakalpaks? I am not trying to confuse you and I dont blame you, but I am sure that the US decision makers know only 1/10th of what they SHOULD know in order to fully grasp such issues.

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    The bottom line is that Turkey overplayed their hand. The US is committed to the territorial integrity of
    Iraq and will not allow Turkish interference in Iraq.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Sorry? That is what Turks want. Turks want to withdraw as soon as possible and it is respect to Iraq\'s territorial integrity that kept Turkey hesitated to join the war. The question is, can US prevent Kurds from resorting to terrorism once Turks leave?

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    I would think that we back the rights of the Turcomen
    in Iraq to enjoy full rights in a democratic Iraq.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Same thing. What is a Turcoman? Turcomans dont even identify themselves as Turcomans.

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Just don\'t ask that the Turcomen in Iraq to get better
    treatment than the Kurds in Turkey.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Kurds in Turkey enjoy a normal and good life. We have lots of Kurds in government posts (even several ministers), they are not discriminated in any way. I am quite puzzled why you have made this remark. Only rebelling Kurds are treated badly. Jesus! How can you treat a man with AK-47?

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Likewise, if Kurdistan turns out to be a well-run, safe, prosperous
    and just province of Iraq (as expected), it might make Turkey\'s treatment of its Kurdish minority look bad.
    That will be Turkey\'s problem to deal with internally.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    If Kurds form a province of Iraq then its fine. But note that Kurdistan means \"Nation of Kurds\" in Turkic language. Thus if the name will be Kurdistan it wont be a province, it will be a full state. If Kurds form anything more than a province in N.Iraq, Turks have previously declared that it will be attacked. Knowing this, if Kurds form a state, (according to international law) then this means that they are declaring war on Turkey. US knows this declaration well. Otherwise it is Turkey\'s interest that Kurds are living well and prosperous. During the war with PKK, Turks provided humanitarian aid to KURDS IN NORTHERN IRAQ (non belligerent). I personally voted for the Kurdish party in Turkey to help them achieve better representation in the National Assembly. And Turkey will support a Kurdish population which is prosperous, so that it doesnt resort to terror.

    Did you understand why I asked \"What is Kurd?\".

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Americans look very favorably on Turkey and were very disappointed at the disagreements that arose
    between us - they cost American lives - we hope that cool heads will prevail in the months ahead.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    As I said, Turkey has been a stauch US supporter since 1947. Current conflicts are the faults of Bush administration, because present Turkish government is fanatically pro-US. But Bush doesnt seem to understand it.

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    Default Re: Kurds and Turks

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


    As I said, Turkey has been a stauch US supporter since 1947. Current conflicts are the faults of Bush administration, because present Turkish government is fanatically pro-US. But Bush doesnt seem to understand it.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    My understanding was that the current turkish government with Gul and Erdogan, politicians from a party with an islamic background, is way more critical of the US than the governments before and that this is one of the reasons for the current struggles between these two countries ...

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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    Default Re: Kurds and Turks

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Not only the American people. He\'s screwing the whole world!! What American voters have to keep in mind is that when you elect a president, you are choosing in a sense policeman of the world.


    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    If Bush (I will never call him \'president\' because he was not actually elected) really wants to be the policeman of the world then all people of the world should get the vote.

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    Default Re: Kurds and Turks

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Not only the American people. He\'s screwing the whole world!! What American voters have to keep in mind is that when you elect a president, you are choosing in a sense policeman of the world.


    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    If Bush (I will never call him \'president\' because he was not actually elected) really wants to be the policeman of the world then all people of the world should get the vote.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    MaxiMog, face it, the president of the most powerful country in the world is always going to play a big role all over the world. Personally I would rather NOT see the USA isolate itself from the rest of the world. That means giving more power to countries like Russia and China and \"evil dictators\" like Saddam Hussein. So, the USA HAS to engage itself in conflicts around the world, albeit for their business interests or for other less noble reasons, it is better than nothing at all. So, yes, the USA automatically gets to play the role of policeman.

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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    Default Re: Kurds and Turks

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    My understanding was that the current turkish government with Gul and Erdogan, politicians from a
    party with an islamic background, is way more critical of the US than the governments before and
    that this is one of the reasons for the current struggles between these two countries ...

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Thats the irony. Gul and Erdogan are students of the hard-core religious party leader Erbakan. They left Erbakan and found their own party. They want to show US that, although they are religious, they are supporting US. Present government is not in conflict with US.

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    MaxiMog, face it, the president of the most powerful country in the world is always going to play a big role all
    over the world. Personally I would rather NOT see the USA isolate itself from the rest of the world. That
    means giving more power to countries like Russia and China and \"evil dictators\" like Saddam Hussein. So, the
    USA HAS to engage itself in conflicts around the world, albeit for their business interests or for other less noble
    reasons, it is better than nothing at all. So, yes, the USA automatically gets to play the role of policeman.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Sadly, no one is taking Bush seriously. He is damaging US\'s reputation and fuelling anti-Americanism all around.

    Go to google.com and search for weapons of mass destruction and hit \"I feel lucky\" button. Look what America means to people now.

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    Default Blame it on Colin

    I believe that a substantial majority of Americans support Bush\'s foreign policy. We are reluctant to get so involved in the affairs of others but the alternative is continued chaos that has already reached our shores with deadly affect.

    The big plan is very sound. There will be ruffled feathers along the way and everyone is not going to get what they want. The execution of that plan will show surprises and mis-steps but this Administration has shown stamina and clear thought in recovering from ocassional wrong turns and misdirection. They are not always as internally coordinated as they should be - they are are not always perfect team mates. Personally, as much as the world loves Colin Powell, his performance has been the weakest. A wholesale reform and restructuring of the State Department would be a valuable initiative.

    The Kurds will have a state under a federal system much like in the US - the Iraqi people and government will decide what to call it and what its parameters will be. The Turks had just better back off because the US Army has guarenteed the territorial integrity of Iraq against all comers. The Turkish government would be very foolish to take on the US over a name.

    As I said, cooler heads will prevail and the US, Turkey and Iraq will work together for peace, democracy and stability in the area.

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    Default Blame it on Colin

    I believe that a substantial majority of Americans support Bush\'s foreign policy. We are reluctant to get so involved in the affairs of others but the alternative is continued chaos that has already reached our shores with deadly affect.

    The big plan is very sound. There will be ruffled feathers along the way and everyone is not going to get what they want. The execution of that plan will show surprises and mis-steps but this Administration has shown stamina and clear thought in recovering from ocassional wrong turns and misdirection. They are not always as internally coordinated as they should be - they are are not always perfect team mates. Personally, as much as the world loves Colin Powell, his performance has been the weakest. A wholesale reform and restructuring of the State Department would be a valuable initiative.

    The Kurds will have a state under a federal system much like in the US - the Iraqi people and government will decide what to call it and what its parameters will be. The Turks had just better back off because the US Army has guarenteed the territorial integrity of Iraq against all comers. The Turkish government would be very foolish to take on the US over a name.

    As I said, cooler heads will prevail and the US, Turkey and Iraq will work together for peace, democracy and stability in the area.

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    Default Back on thread...

    Here\'s an interesting link - the US government has to dispose of 700,000 tons of depleted uranium hexafloride. That will make maybe ONE BILLION lbs of DU metal.

    http://tis.eh.doe.gov/nepa/rods/1999/43358.pdf

    A question for the critics of DU weapons - would it be OK to use natural uranium?

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    Default Re: Blame it on Colin

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    I believe that a substantial majority of Americans support Bush\'s foreign policy. We are reluctant to get so involved in the affairs of others but the alternative is continued chaos that has already reached our shores with deadly affect.

    The big plan is very sound. There will be ruffled feathers along the way and everyone is not going to get what they want. The execution of that plan will show surprises and mis-steps but this Administration has shown stamina and clear thought in recovering from ocassional wrong turns and misdirection. They are not always as internally coordinated as they should be - they are are not always perfect team mates. Personally, as much as the world loves Colin Powell, his performance has been the weakest. A wholesale reform and restructuring of the State Department would be a valuable initiative.

    The Kurds will have a state under a federal system much like in the US - the Iraqi people and government will decide what to call it and what its parameters will be. The Turks had just better back off because the US Army has guarenteed the territorial integrity of Iraq against all comers. The Turkish government would be very foolish to take on the US over a name.

    As I said, cooler heads will prevail and the US, Turkey and Iraq will work together for peace, democracy and stability in the area.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Quite like a George Bush speech; made of good wishes (structured on lack of knowledge) rather than solutions. US is not mentally able to handle such a situation. Sorry. I dont want to further the discussion because you are missing my points.

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    Default Re: Blame it on Colin

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    Quite like a George Bush speech; made of good wishes (structured on lack of knowledge) rather than solutions.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    You can say a lot about Whitehall, but NOT that he lacks in knowledge. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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    Default Re: Blame it on Colin

    </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
    You can say a lot about Whitehall, but NOT that he lacks in knowledge.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

    Read my first post in this thread. I DO admire his knowledge and acknowldged it on the forum. But you too have to acknowledge that a Turkish international relations specialist has to know more about the issue. I said I dont want to further the discussion, because it kills me to hear these from Whitehall. Lets just continue on with DU.

    Recent update about the capture of Turkish soldiers by US troops. American Liutenant General has completed his inspection on the matter. <font color=\"blue\"> The United States acknowldged that it was their fault and issued an apology. </font> <font color=\"red\"> Turkish soldiers are returned back to the com station with American escorts and US promised to pay for damages caused on Turkish equipment. </font>

    Patriotism is nice, but not when you are wrong.

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    Default Re: Blame it on Colin

    So, how come you guys haven\'t made it into the EU yet?

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    Default Re: Blame it on Colin

    \'Cus we are idiots! Ture. Turkey suffers from bureaucratic corruption and it is under the threat of Islamic fundamentalism, which is held under check by the General Staff, which shows Turkey as a militarist nation. Turkish politics is under the influence of the army and naturally EU does not want to have a militarist member.

    I believe Turkey\'s attempts of membership is very futile.

    BUT, I am sure that the government is thinking the same and although they know that they wont become a member of the EU, they are using the process of accession to hasten most of the modernisation plans which would otherwise left untouched. For example human rights; they still (although diminishing rapidly) torture people in the police stations. Of course not in the big cities, but in remote provinces; still it is disturbing.

    Also, come on.. do you think EU is willing to have a %99 muslim member?

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    Default Shucks

    OK, guys, stop falling all over yourselves with the suck-up. There are definitely limits on what I know and how authoritatively I can address any subject (just ask FTR!)

    As to the specifics of Turkey and the Kurds, I\'ve only followed the issues in some of the better US magazines (like Atlantic Monthly - highly recommended!) and talked with Iraqi, Israeli, and Iranian friends of some intelligence and education living here in California. Akinu is on the ground in Turkey and has much more intimate knowledge of the history and current situation. However, his views are shaped by his emotional involvement, just as mine are from my being an American and a member of the Republican Party (progressive side!)

    The question that I have is if Turkey is a tolerant democracy and Kurds are well-integrated into economic, social, and political life there, why would a Turkish Kurd want to risk life and limb to revolt against the Turkish government? Likewise, the Iraqi Kurds have little incentive to form an independant country and forego the benefits of sharing Iraqi oil and risk American intervention. We\'re not going to let that happen.

    Frankly, I don\'t see an independent Kurdish state nor an uprising of Turkish Kurds as likely events. I think this reflects US government thinking too.

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    Default Re: Shucks

    \"Emotional\"?? Please have a look at the post above (I am against the Turkish government). I voted FOR Kurds. And I am hardly a Turkish patriot either. But there are some facts, some truths. My temper was about your words because they were very far from the truth. Jesus! Congrats! You made an guy who has voted for the Kurds defend Turkey. Bottom line: If <font color=\"red\"> the Kurdish tribes who are living in provinces between Iraq and Turkey </font> are happy and prosperous, we will be more than happy to drop arms and continue eating our shish kebabs. We just dont want another suicide bomber blowing up a cafe or a bus.

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