Just Curious

[kentwo]

Did a search and couldn\'t find any one who did this.
But seeing as I\'m a new guy to this trade and haven\'t had much success using SOE or AE. Still trying though. I wanted to know if anyone here acutally tried an experiement to see if they work. I\'m being skeptical and have a feeling that the nones might just be a dumbo\'s feather.

Maybe someone could find 2 identical bottles. Label both of them so that the labels can\'t be read unless removed. Then spike one with cologne and nones and fill the other to the same level as the first with just cologne. Mix the bottles up so you can\'t tell which is which. Then try them out, recording recations. After everything is over remove the labels and see which one did what? I would try this, but I\'m not too sure it would work for me since I still haven\'t had results using nones alone.

I found another thread mentioning a test on jackets, but it didn\'t seem to fit in with what I was thinking.

Anyone ever try something like this?

[CptKipling]

Sorry if this sounds blunt, but it seems that every other week we get someone voicing the same doubts over pheromones.

Do you honestly think that all the people here (most of whom report results in one way or another) are making it up? Or worse, that it\'s all placebo?

If you dont think they work and its all lies, dont use them, but you really are missing out.

[Charisma]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Did a search and couldn\'t find any one who did this.
But seeing as I\'m a new guy to this trade and haven\'t had much success using SOE or AE. Still trying though. I wanted to know if anyone here acutally tried an experiement to see if they work. I\'m being skeptical and have a feeling that the nones might just be a dumbo\'s feather.

Maybe someone could find 2 identical bottles. Label both of them so that the labels can\'t be read unless removed. Then spike one with cologne and nones and fill the other to the same level as the first with just cologne. Mix the bottles up so you can\'t tell which is which. Then try them out, recording recations. After everything is over remove the labels and see which one did what? I would try this, but I\'m not too sure it would work for me since I still haven\'t had results using nones alone.

I found another thread mentioning a test on jackets, but it didn\'t seem to fit in with what I was thinking.

Anyone ever try something like this?



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
What you\'re proposing sounds like a double-blind.
Maybe someone (JVK or Bruce?) can comment that this is actually one of the tests that a product goes trough before it\'s marketed.

[akinu]

Kentwo, I know how you feel and I am sure many people in the forum has \"been there\". First of all, of course all the people in this big forum cant be fake. Skepticism is normal at this level. Believe it or not I have been testing pheros for quite a long time with no result; yet I am still trying and not giving up. Why? Because I am mad? Of course no. I dont know if you can do this at this level, but if only you could get through this first wave of doubt and think that you will benefit more from pheros as you keep educating yourself on them. The more you know, the more you benefit. And by the way, if you dont think that you can manage the long and serious phase of testing and failure and rather want a quick fix; know that it doesnt exist. But if you are the kind of guy (that I know you are by the way) who will fight and make the effort for changing his life in a positive way, stay. Calm down and dont spend you r pheros without knowing how to use them properly, or you will end up pouring a whole bottle of NPA iinto a perfume bottle and ruin your investment. It is not easy; I know. One drop or one extra dab may be the thin line between success and failure. There is OD danger, theory of indifference etc. which are all big gaps between you and success. But always know this and say this to yourself \"People who are having loads of fun with pheros now have all spent long times in search of their holy grail, through periods of \"failure\"\". But they knew that there were no such thing as \"failure\", just feedback. So you must also accept that you wil not get ANY responses throughout your newbie phase. Also, see the titles \"newbie\", \"journeyman\", \"phero guru\" etc.etc..? They are not just \"titles\".. Lets talk again when you spend some time in the forum and get the title \"Phero Entusiast\". Set this as a goal. And let the forum educate you.

And CptKipling. I am sure that Kentwo already knows what you are telling him, but you know that \"we are not placebo\" is not an answer for a newbie questioning about the correctness of his investments. There are sooooo many phermone websites and soooo many brands which promise the same thing; but as the phermone science is not very advanced yet no one seems to answer why exactly pheros dont work for a person. And this lack of explanation is the reason why you are getting skeptical posts about pheros every week. If you buy a product which promises \"instant attraction\" \"instantly get laid\" etc. you will be skeptical after several failures. These people has to know what and how pheros really do, and it takes time. Who knows, perhaps a year later Kentwo will be teaching us things.. you never know [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[kentwo]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Sorry if this sounds blunt, but it seems that every other week we get someone voicing the same doubts over pheromones.

Do you honestly think that all the people here (most of whom report results in one way or another) are making it up? Or worse, that it\'s all placebo?

If you dont think they work and its all lies, dont use them, but you really are missing out.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

That argument makes no sense at all. Just because other people says that it works by no means makes it true. I\'m asking if anyone here actually has tested themselves. There are two ways to look at it. One, it might acutally work on a scientific level in which people are actually picking up on the mones and it affects their behavior. Two, your change in behavior or belief affects their behavior. I\'m not saying that either way is bad, as long as you get the results you want its all good. I want to know, and I\'m sure a lot of other people do to, is it case one or case two that makes people use mones.

I am not asking because I don\'t think they do work. I am asking because I\'m trying to find out how they work for those people that it works for. In other threads people have said that it works for them but have they ever done a blind test to see if it actually does on a scientific level?

Akinu has it straight when he said that the science is new. The only way it will advance is by more research and proof. Having newbies read the post about how many hits they have or what not does not answer most of their questions. A detailed trial would help put a lot of incoming people\'s mind at ease, which would thus increase the amount of users which in turn would increase the amount of information gathered in the industry. And I believe that the most important function of this forum is to share information, not just brag about hits.

I\'m reminded of the whole digital cable filter thing last year. I read about it on another forum and kept asking questions. People on the forum kept saying that it really worked, but gave no quantitative data. Then a couple months later it comes out on the news that it is all a hoax and they don\'t work and all those people were just trying to scam people for their money.

I truely hope that mones work as well as some people say they do, but since I\'ve been using them for a couple of weeks with no results, I\'d just like to share data and analyze other people\'s results. Can\'t help it I\'m a left-brained type 2 learner. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[furburger]

I was skepticle at first too. But I have seen with my own eyes, not very often, but I have seen reactions to lead me to believe that pheromones do work. Just not on everyone. I believe a persons body chemistry really affects the way certain things work on them. Finding another human being that will be affected by your chemistry and personality is not going to happen 100% of the time.

[SwingerMD]

Ketwo,

Welcome to the forum!

Here\'s something that you may be interested in reading: http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB2&amp;Number=3471&a mp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1&amp ;vc=1

This is a post from Archives 2 entitled \"Hits and Delivered Phermone Dose\". This was a post by one of our earlier and very meticulous members by the moniker \"Scientist\". Sadly his name has been erased from our archives [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] .

As for research and proof go here: http:///
This is the website for James Kohl author and maker of SOE. Click on \"Scientific Evidence\" to see links to papers and abstracts.

You want results? Let\'s start out with an answer to these following questions. You said you used both AE and SOE. How much did you use? Where did you apply them? How often did you reapply? Where did you use them? Inside? Outside? At a party? Train station? Bus?

What were you doing at the time? I\'ve found that standing around, with your hands on your hips and muttering, \"C\'mon work damnit!\", doesn\'t seem to cut it. (There was a point about a year ago when I had started to play around with PI/m that I was doing just this.)

My point is that we are talking about complex social interactions. All of the old timers here would say that pheromones is only one part of this. You\'re behavior in looking for \'hits\' could be scaring people away.

A lot of my earlier experimenting around involved me riding buses, headphones on, sitting back and observing people\'s reactions to various products and mixes. I have yet to have someone come up to me and hit on me with my headphones on (usually happens after I take them off). But I have seen (and heard since no music was on) lots of DHILs, hair flips, etc . . . .

You can read all about how people react to pictures sprayed with pheros, measurments of brain activity and levels of hormones when subjects are exposed to androsterone, androstenone and/or antrostenol, etc . . . all you want. But most of the sucessfull people on the forum will tell you it has taken a lot of trial and error using results and observations that people have posted as starting off points to get them sucessful results. Not one single forum member is exactly the same. Not all products, combos, and mixes will work for everyone in the same manner (hell A1 gives me headaches and I have yet to see something positive from using it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] ) .

I hope this helps. Keep on trying and asking.

--------------------
<font color=\"red\"> -SwingerMD </font>

[kentwo]

Swinger,
Thanks for the site. I\'ll have to spend some time reading the articles on it. I may even try to find that book.

Its not that I don\'t believe in mones. I\'ve studied animal behavior in college (bio grad 1998) and read some articles about its affect on humans. Its more like I\'m questioning the effectivness of the mones in the products. I recall when mones first came out and people bought some of them, I didn\'t, and then studies came out saying that the products only had pig or cow mones in it and didn\'t work for humans. I know things have changed, but I\'d like to find more studies done on the products. If the manufacturers have done some studies I\'d love to see it.

I enjoy reading the threads here, like the racial effects and \"does it need to have a scent.\" They are very interesting. Since it seems to be contrary to some other information I\'ve read about how mones work in other animals.

Here\'s a quick run down of my personal.
Been putting on AE 2 drops on wrist covered by cologne then wiped on to neck, another drop or 2 on chest area. This went on since last weekend (around 2 weeks). I don\'t usually reapply since I\'ve been in a classroom this summer and haven\'t seen the need to since the smell last for the 4-5 hours that I\'m there. I also used it at a club one night. I also applied SOE, 1/4-1/2 a gel pack on my arms and neck the past few days. So far no DIHL etc... I\'ve followed the instructions here, been very friendly and out going, talking to people more than usual. Not a lone wolf etc... No results yet, but I plan to keep trying for another week.

[SonnyBlack]

you may need to look at the rone in your products...rone in any amount makes people avoid me and sometimes even challenge you and try to be more alpha than you...these are some of the effects I get out of rone...sort of makes people stay away from u...maybe thats wats messing you up...just a tthought...

[SwingerMD]

Kentwo,

I\'m not criticizing that you don\'t believe, just seeing if I can help. For the gel packs, I usually put the whole thing on (bit of a waste perhaps but I don\'t want to have a packet leaking in my pocket). I usually get a lot more rxns from the roll-on rather than the pack, but when I do the rxns are in the same ballpark as the ones I get from the roll-on. I haven\'t used AE so I can\'t tell you what reactions that I have had. My advice would be to up the dosage drop by drop each time you use it.

For me, it was pretty easy to notice the differences when I used and didn\'t use pheros. Before I would notice looks from women once every blue moon. I would even have a few come up and approach me. With pheros the frequency went up. Sure there are a few times when nothing noticable happens, but the difference is definately noticable.

As for DIHL\'s you probably won\'t get any for the SOE and you\'ll probabbly have to up the AE dosage 2-3 times. A lot of us here have learned that DIHL\'s might be a little too close to OD levels, but it is really nice to actually see one happen for the first time. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

--------------------
<font color=\"red\"> -SwingerMD </font>

[kentwo]

Swinger,
Sorry if it sounded like I was venting. Your type of post is what I was looking for (besides if anyone tried a full blown experiment.) Anytime information is spread I think its helpful. I don\'t think talking complaining about newbies complainging about the product is helpful at all. I sometimes think a few people here don\'t want people to get into this hobby so they act rude and ignorant to their questions instead of sharing their ideas. I\'m thinking about trying my project. Since I\'m pretty new to it I probably can\'t tell the difference between a spiked cologne and a normal one. I made up a little log sheet for me to keep track of things when I got out. The only problem is that I haven\'t seen any reactions yet, so I can\'t really begin this experiment until I see some type of result. Then I can determine the proper mones/cologne ration to test.

I really hope more experienced people try something like that on their own and don\'t just brush it off because they have had some success. The next step to building on everyone\'s success is to ask more questions.

[akinu]

Heh I was right. Kentwo is teaching us things! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I would say he is reconstructing forum\'s personnel policy [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] No seriously, I guess the forum needed such a skeptic.

[SwingerMD]

Kentwo,

Hmm . . . . You\'ve got me thinking about full blown experiments. The only real dating world test of pheros that I can think of would involve twins. For example one gal dating two guys, first would have on pheros other wouldn\'t or one with two twin girls. I wonder if anything like this has been done yet.

--------------------

<font color=\"blue\"> -SwingerMD </font>

[CptKipling]

I wasnt getting at you personally, I\'m sorry if it seemed that way.

I think all the information you are looking for is on the forum (by way of links or actual posts), but i agree it can be hard to find it. If you have some time, it\'s really worth reading all the forum (which is something I\'m thinking of doing again, and is made difficult by all the rubbish some people post).

One of the problems with pheromones as a science is the huge variety of reactions that are created by including the random human factor. Added to this you include another huge variable, the personality of the wearer.

For example, not every person will react sexually to a certain mix. Girl A may react very sexually with flirting etc, girl B may be equally attracted but get a DIHL and act shy and dazed, while girl C may be slightly repulsed (note that you don’t normally get such huge variation, partly due to \"Social Proof\"). Now most guys might be strait in there like a shot with girl A, flirting back and gradually elevating her arousal until they get what they want. There might be a few guys that don’t notice the flirting, or don’t know how to flirt back properly, or even that the wearer was acting so shy and reserved that he didn’t get any reactions at all, or that the pheromonal affect was attributed to someone else. With girl B, a greater number of guys would be lost. A lot would not have noticed her attention, and so would have done nothing. Some may not respond correctly and ruin there chances, but a few would play it right and get the girl. With girl C, the vast majority of guys would be in trouble, but some would know how to get the best out of the situation.


That about sums it all up!

I like your idea for an experiment, i did something similar. From my recent chest applications of TE and AE, i only applied TE with a mild cologne today. The reactions changed as i predicted, there was less comfort factor, but still the spicy sexual attraction.

[akinu]

If only we had a time machine......then we would go to a club with pheros on see what happens and then go back in time and go to the same club, the same time without pheros.. That would be hell of an experiment! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] I tried to do that with my ex girlfriend (no not the time machine thing). When we were newly dating I had used different pheros for each date. You can do such a thing too.

[akinu]

If only we had a time machine......then we would go to a club with pheros on see what happens and then go back in time and go to the same club, the same time without pheros.. That would be hell of an experiment! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] I tried to do that with my ex girlfriend (no not the time machine thing). When we were newly dating I had used different pheros for each date. You can do such a thing too.

[kentwo]

Glad everything got straightened out. Now if we could just have some other people jump on the testing bandwagon. Unless of course someone already did something like this. Would be great if there were twins trying the mones out, but my idea was the only way I could think of individual people trying it. For you more experienced users you may be able to pick up the scent of the mones in the spiked cologne so the results would be worthless and for the newer people like me, I haven\'t seen any results when I know I\'ve had the mones on so it wouldn\'t work for me either. Too bad we couldn\'t find the right people for this, or like Akinu said go back in time to review everyone\'s test. What would really be perfect is if other members of the forum could have gone to the club and observe what was going on. Who knows, maybe someone\'s DIHL or hit might be another person\'s coincidence.

If anyone has more substantial scientific evidence with numbers, data chart or maybe a graph I\'d really like to see it. I\'ve read many post on this site already, but most talk about the science behind mones, which I agree could happen. I\'m more interested in seeing the results of individual products or the affects of behavior and not the mones as a whole. Maybe behavior has more to the hits then the mones (80-20 or 95-5 cause effect ratio) or maybe the mones products can be some how evaluated for effectivness with a control.


Thanks

[Sagacious1420]

Hey Kentwo-

Great idea, if we have any psycho/bio/socio -logy majors out there looking for a thesis project, perhaps. A double blind test under such controlled conditions is not a simple task. Theoretically, there is someone out there who is supposed to being doing just this type of research. I think you can read about the dude in one of the testomonial sections (I think customer service and not merchandise). Personally, I think the guy just hustled LS out of some free samples under the guise of being a legit researcher. I certainly haven\'t run across any posts that would even appear to be from this individual, so I dunno...perhaps we\'ll never know. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Nonetheless, a great idea! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[akinu]

I dont have any \"logy\" major (international relations) but I can do the experiments on amounts you think will work. And even more interestingly, I have the chance to test the findings with the most awkward female population in the world; turkish girls!! If I get any hits here this means that you will get at least X10 of the response in your city. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] How\'bout that?

[Sagacious1420]

Controls are the key to conducting sound research. How can you determine appropriate conclusions w/out them...I mean, how do you really know what \"caused\" what, unless you can control as many variables as possible...and how do you apply the results of good research to an uncontrolled environment, i.e. the real world. Sounds like a Koan to me.

Of course, if you really want to get a handle on the research available, check out the reference material and, perhaps, JVK\'s website and any links that he may offer. Seek and ye shall find. Perhaps, this will shed some light for you. Just keep in mind that \"the Light is merely understanding and provides no solice\" and that\'s if you\'re lucky. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[DrSmellThis]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Did a search and couldn\'t find any one who did this.
But seeing as I\'m a new guy to this trade and haven\'t had much success using SOE or AE. Still trying though. I wanted to know if anyone here acutally tried an experiement to see if they work. I\'m being skeptical and have a feeling that the nones might just be a dumbo\'s feather.

Maybe someone could find 2 identical bottles. Label both of them so that the labels can\'t be read unless removed. Then spike one with cologne and nones and fill the other to the same level as the first with just cologne. Mix the bottles up so you can\'t tell which is which. Then try them out, recording recations. After everything is over remove the labels and see which one did what? I would try this, but I\'m not too sure it would work for me since I still haven\'t had results using nones alone.

I found another thread mentioning a test on jackets, but it didn\'t seem to fit in with what I was thinking.

Anyone ever try something like this?



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Kentwo:
Here are my own recent posts about new pheromone research, spread throughout the thread.

http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB5&amp;Number=50906& amp;Forum=UBB5&amp;Words=phero%20references&amp;Ma tch=Entire%20Phrase&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25& amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=50906&amp;Search=true#Po st50906

(God, these huge post cells are annoying, btw! I\'ll have to remove my picture to see if that helps.)

Most all experimental (and quasi-experimental) research, including that on pheromones, uses various control groups and control conditions. Same-o, same-o! Knock yourself out with these references; there is quite a lot in that thread. I can give you lots more if you want it, but it will take you 6 months just to get through the Erox material.

Most people here aren\'t quite so interested in the types of findings controlled studies on pheromones have yielded (I am one of the many exceptions, however). The professional researchers pussy-foot around too much (i.e., shy away from sexuality). We are practitioners in the field, like counselors are to psychology. We need things to work yesterday, if not sooner. So we try millions of things, guided by intuition, and related multidisciplinary knowledge; as well as the formal research. So we are operating well beyond what the researchers have looked at, I believe.

Just take a bottle of Stone Labs -none and pour a few droppers full on yourself. Smear it around good. Many won\'t be able to smell anything at all on you. Let us know how it turns out. Probably nothing will happen.

I remember when WAGG came out they sent out trial bottles to some forum members, with no information, and several guessed exactly what the highly unique pheromone product was supposed to do (I being one of them -- it took me about a half hour.) You will develop your observational skills over the course of a year or so, if you stick with it.

As folks are saying, in practice it is not a matter of \"work vs. not work.\" I mean, we really have isolated some of the chemicals, and you already klnow that as a user. So your focus is on making them work for yourself. It is easy to have them not work, especially with -none. This accounts for the fact that most research on -none simply contains false conclusions. We know more here about what it does than do the researchers.

[nonscents]

Everyone interested in the science of \'mones should review the articles in DrST\'s link. It represents a valuable resource for those of us who wish to unravel they mystery of \'mones.

[Sagacious1420]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Most people here aren\'t quite so interested in the types of findings controlled studies on pheromones have yielded (I am one of the many exceptions, however). The professional researchers pussy-foot around too much (i.e., shy away from sexuality). We are practitioners in the field, like counselors are to psychology. We need things to work yesterday, if not sooner. So we try millions of things, guided by intuition, and related multidisciplinary knowledge; as well as the formal research. So we are operating well beyond what the researchers have looked at, I believe.



As folks are saying, in practice it is not a matter of \"work vs. not work.\" I mean, we really have isolated some of the chemicals, and you already klnow that as a user. So your focus is on making them work for yourself... We know more here about what it does than do the researchers.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Nice post DST! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks for the link, too. All I need is another distraction from my \"work\". [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] This should keep me out of trouble for a while...if that\'s possible. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[kentwo]

Thanks for all the info...
I will be reading them over the next couple of days. That\'s the type of thing we should see more of around here.

BTW: I know this would be a very hard experiment to do following strict scientific procedures. I\'ve tried doing some simple human behavior experiments for my psy.201 class and it was hell. There are so many variables involved in human behavior. Maybe we should start a list of them so that if someone does try the experiment (hint,hint) then they\'ll know what type of things they must control.

For example,
use same type of cologne
use same amount of cologne
apply at the same time and place everyday
go to the same places during the testing period
wear similar types of clothes
eat/drink/bath consistently during the trial period

pretty much, they\'d have to keep their whole life the same for a couple weeks, changing only the bottles of cologne they use, which should be marked with a hidden label so that they can compare their results with what they were using during the trial.

[kentwo]

Hey Dr.
Why is it that some articles have no information? I\'ve been reading the articles on the link you gave us and have found some very interesting. I wish that they would post their data because many of them only state their conclusion and without seeing the data its hard to agree or disagree with their results. It sounds like they have tried tests like the one I suggested we try. The only problem was that the articles I really wanted to read was the articles that were blank. The last one for example, was titled \"Androstenol as a human pheromone: no effect on perceived physical attractiveness\" that sounded like a great topic especially for this site, but it is blank. Any way to see it?
Thanks

[DrSmellThis]

I think they want to make money.