EVOLUTION AND DARWINISM - ARE YOU A BELIEVER?

[tallmacky]

Nice post Cptkipling.

Belgareth, I am not taking science as hard as the religious take their religion, I was simply feeling that there is much more evidence at this point on the scientific side, on the religious side there is so much corruption and hypocrism that I don\'t even have the energy to type [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

I am sure they can/have done DNA tests on the bones/any other biological material they have found. I posed an argument and my questions may have been difficult but they were all avoided and an excuse (me being arrogant) was given. Belgareth you came out full force on this one as usual. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] You have alot of good points but the situations given are those rare cases, now if you inversed the amount of cases to the belief you would then have Christianity.(Religion)

[belgareth]

No DNA tests. The DNA would have deteriorated long since. Carbon dating, yes it has been done. So? Ever seen a carbon atom decomposing? Me neither. So I guess we need to take that on faith as well.

I do not agree about total corruption being greater in one area or the other. Most the people who work in either field are fine, honest and intellegent people who truly believe what they practice. Much good has come to us from both science and religion, along with many atrocities. Neither discipline can argue their ultimate good.

No. those were not isolated examples. Are you familiar with the problem of the mass of the universe? I could spend some time on the web and provide you with thousands of flaws to what we \'know\' about science.

You\'ve missed my point all along though. The moment you decide you know something, you cease to learn and that is the greatest of all failures. Can you or anybody else really claim to know something beyond any doubt?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

YES!

Beyond the shadow of the slightest possible doubt, I know that I do not know everything.

[foofoo]

Tallmacky had a very interesting post
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Has there been any physcial proof proving that the many tales and stories in the bible are true? No, right?Now we could say they were never meant to be taken as truth this and that and we could go on for years, but they were written as so and at that time were to be taken as truth, until later on as I said as the times change religion and it\'s basis seems to also. Why would solid proof of existence of god morph to fit our noble and lowly human culture(s) and personal beliefs?

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although the Bible in its present form contains many contradictions, its original form was pure, most accurately reflected in the Dead Sea Scrolls. These scrolls have substantial evidence of paranormal intervention including
1/ the bible code, a linguistic code in the original hebrew which has been proven to contain facts of future events, notably 20th century events involving Israel.
2/ some scientific accuracies, how the earth is a sphere for example + beneficial traits of moderate drinking
3/ the names of cities destroyed by God, as mentioned in the bible, have been seen to exist as archaeologists will prove, along with the traits of such cities, eg Pompeii, centre of homosexuality and paedophilia,

my best bet would be 1/
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i don\'t see how you disrupted my original point Belgareth, I told you that debates were based on facts, logic, and common sense. Is there physical proof of Evolution? YES. Is there any physical proof for Religion? No. Now I am not taking the side of either one totally, instead I am seeing that Evolution has much backing and logic in it\'s corner, go outside look at our world!

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evolution has no proof because the theory of evolution is fundamentally flawed as I shall explain. Therefore all possible evidence arising from these flaws are also flawed and have no merit.
Moreover, religion does have physical proof, demonstrated most potently through Islam, which is the original, pure form of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and several other major beliefs as they all started with the same fundamental precedent, which only still remains in Islam.
Examples include 1/ scientific accuracy&amp;#8217;s in the Koran, the most uptodate discovered through science in the last 15-20 years. Examples include accurate accounts of embryology, aspects of nuclear physics such as the formation of nebulae and the singular origin of multiple celestial bodies, aspects of plate tectonics, brain functions, weather cycles and formation of lightening, hail etc, amongst other things to give you an idea.
2/ 19A=B, a law discovered in the Koran, which displays the perfection of God&amp;#8217;s creation through mathematical precision. In several ways, it is similar to the language code in the Dead Sea Scrolls, although it is numbers this time. The difference arises in that it applies to the whole universe as we know it.
3/ Abnormal phenomenon in which religious inscriptions are written on various things in the natural world, e.g., the moon, various fruits, shapes of trees, fish, clouds, bee hives, eggs, human lungs to name a few.
4/ religions such as Buddhism, Judaism back up the claims of the Koran through prophecies, hence all religions are linked

If you want more then you can use a search engine and you&amp;#8217;ll find 100s there. Therefore the validity of religion cannot be underestimated. Furthermore, these religions have concepts contrary to evolution. Thus a flaw has to be somewhere.

Firstly, may I add that the reason why so many of us, perhaps 99.9% of us have fallen for evolution is that it is not at all obvious why it is false, without having the necessary mental capacity to refute its claims, which, once formulated and told, destroys evolution altogether. Thus it may also be difficult to understand what is being said.

I will start with a basic flaw in evolution since I have no idea to the extent of your knowledge, and will build up my arguments as the situation warrants.

1/ assuming the theory of evolution, the small physiological changes that occur through the mutating of the DNA, will gradually, over long periods of time, diverge the species into separate ones.

Flaw: a) the physiological change will have to be regulated in order to be functional , through the necessary differentiation existing in the brain/nucleus. In other words, small physiological changes cannot occur, without larger ones occuring within the same mutation,

ie an additional mechanism or part of a mechanism in the body arising through mutation would be useless unless co-ordinated by the brain + all other organs to adapt to the new physiological circumstance (ie the mutation)

This can possibly occur through huge DNA change = huge structural change in chromosomes in creating favourable characteristics for the mechanism + the mutation to create the differentiation in brain = impossible as the chances of the &amp;#8220;mutant&amp;#8221;, gaining 2 favourable characteristics and possibly many more from the complexity of the brain, (further implying greater changes in the DNA change in one mutation, thus further decreasing probability) is against the claims of evolution of a gradual change over thousands/millions of years.

b) Such a flaw applies to all mechanism in the human body (and indeed all organisms), and at all periods of time. In other words, in order to obtain A, B is needed, which needs C, which needs D, no matter what we take as our baseline to work with. (ie no matter where we start in the evolution process [including bacteria, although they are a special case, ie they can mutate successfully but are not the product of mutation] and for whatever mutation). And if B, C and D weren&amp;#8217;t around, (ie. Sticking with the basic evolution theory of slow gradual change), then A is basically a pile of molecular heap, without purpose, and would be seen as unfavourable for years and years = death of organism + that mutation in cases of cruciality, which would be every case, as it is applying simultaneously to all circumstances in the evolution process . )

and so c) no organism could have mutated, unless through the mutation, everything required is also obtained.

Ie. If mutation had occurred, everything single thing would have to have been mutated in that next generation too.

And so the characteristics of any mutation are non-functional through the evolutionary mechanism, as, through such a mechanism, the organism is not highly differentiated enough in order to be functional.

Therefore, I conclude that such a simple flaw destroys all measure of evolution acting as an accurate basis for human and indeed any organisms&amp;#8217; development, and through the analysis provided and with the appropriate understanding, it is thus guaranteed to be false. BTW, this is only a very basic flaw, there are 100s more for anyone daring enough. Personally, no professor of physiology on earth can come back from that, although I would like PhD&amp;#8217;s and the like to try and refute my arguments.

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The bible was written by men who believed that a man was very special and attributed him to being the son of god? Would you believe if someone told you he was the son of god? Would you believe him 2,000 years ago?

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your understanding in this regard is partially correct. Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was a messenger and Apostle of God, like tens of thousands before him. However, the authors of the original authors of the authentic Gospel/ New Testament did not even claim he was the son of God, and it was only after the destruction of Christ&amp;#8217;s teachings in the 2nd century that such a concept was added by Roman and Jewish conspirators.

I hope my post sheds much light on these topics.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

P.S, sorry about the 8217\'£!s etc, my apostrophe is duffed up and ive just noticed now [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Elana]

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1/ the bible code, a linguistic code in the original hebrew which has been proven to contain facts of future events, notably 20th century events involving Israel.


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I remember the first time I saw those codes. I was in Kabbalah class and they put some of them up on a big overhead projector. Everyone in the class was silent. It was unbelievable. That truly blew my mind.

[HB_88]

Assassinations foretold in Moby Dick

Death of Princess Di predicted!

Additional Bible Code skepticism

HB_88

P.S.: You\'re still wonderful people. Just wanted to illustrate how nonsensical this stuff really is.

[druid]

how the hell can islam be the orginal pure form of judism or christianity? judism was around before islam!

[druid]

how the hell can islam be the orginal pure form of judism or christianity? judism was around before islam!

[tallmacky]

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I do not agree about total corruption being greater in one area or the other. Most the people who work in either field are fine, honest and intellegent people who truly believe what they practice. Much good has come to us from both science and religion, along with many atrocities. Neither discipline can argue their ultimate good.

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I don\'t understand Belgareth, the point of religion is to break even? Why would God\'s gift of understanding to man cause man to gain but also to lose and causing all of these negative things? Could it be that religion is man made and thus flawed and we are to only expect these type of results?

[HB_88]

Uh, to what are you referring? If any such claim was mentioned in any of the URLs I linked to, I\'ll probably remove the offending URL(s) since this certainly wasn\'t relevant to what I was talking about. As my thread title suggests, I\'m skeptical of Bible codes and I\'m sharing these links.
You must be replying to something further up the thread.
HB_88

The Druids... no one knows who they were or... what... they were doing... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
--Nigel Tufnel, This Is Spinal Tap

[tallmacky]

I was replying to a quote of Belgareth\'s

[HB_88]

Ok. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Anyone else?

[tallmacky]

Sorry about that, I am just looking at the links you have given, I am not sure what to think of them yet.

[belgareth]

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I do not agree about total corruption being greater in one area or the other. Most the people who work in either field are fine, honest and intellegent people who truly believe what they practice. Much good has come to us from both science and religion, along with many atrocities. Neither discipline can argue their ultimate good.

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I don\'t understand Belgareth, the point of religion is to break even? Why would God\'s gift of understanding to man cause man to gain but also to lose and causing all of these negative things? Could it be that religion is man made and thus flawed and we are to only expect these type of results?

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The biggest gift of all...free will to choose our own path.

[belgareth]

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YES!

Beyond the shadow of the slightest possible doubt, I know that I do not know everything.

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DO you really know that or is that your belief?

[seadove]

It took me a while to read this very long but also very interesting thread.

There is an answer to the question.It is incorporated in one of the Kaballah books called the \"ZOHAR\"

The Zohar is studied in the Yeshiva schools, and only when the student becomes a Rabbi, he will be ready to go into Zohar studies.It is written in Hebrew and as far as I know, there are no other language translations.

[tallmacky]

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The biggest gift of all...free will to choose our own path.

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Why write basically a rule book, and then set people free to do basically anything they want. Free will is only there to explain why people go bad, there are no other explanations of why this happens? I asked why religion seems to break even as if it causes just as much negative as positive (arguable), you then said \"the gift of free will\".

Do you think if religion holds any truth that man can hold it can protect it can teach it? As we have seen is man really ready to be trusted with something so important and so sacred without placing their own wants and needs in it? I am only using common sense in any assumption I make.

Belgareth, you are right I could think one thing of the universe, or even more I could even believe in the universe now and find out later I was completely wrong. As we move through history we (mankind) realize that we were actually wrong on many things, that we basically knew nothing, our only educator seems to be time. I find it hard to believe a 2,000 year old book (other religious text too) holds the reason and truth to our existence. Do you see where I am going with this?

Most of our past beliefs and facts we thought true we have abandoned why is it so hard for us to let go of some religions?

thanks

[belgareth]

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The biggest gift of all...free will to choose our own path.

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Why write basically a rule book, and then set people free to do basically anything they want. Free will is only there to explain why people go bad, there are no other explanations of why this happens? I asked why religion seems to break even as if it causes just as much negative as positive (arguable), you then said \"the gift of free will\".

Do you think if religion holds any truth that man can hold it can protect it can teach it? As we have seen is man really ready to be trusted with something so important and so sacred without placing their own wants and needs in it? I am only using common sense in any assumption I make.

Belgareth, you are right I could think one thing of the universe, or even more I could even believe in the universe now and find out later I was completely wrong. As we move through history we (mankind) realize that we were actually wrong on many things, that we basically knew nothing, our only educator seems to be time. I find it hard to believe a 2,000 year old book (other religious text too) holds the reason and truth to our existence. Do you see where I am going with this?

Most of our past beliefs and facts we thought true we have abandoned why is it so hard for us to let go of some religions?

thanks

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If I remember my Sunday school lessons correctly, we were given free will as an opportunity to demonstrate that we will live the way we are told. That way we can get into heaven and enjoy ever lasting life. Religion does not break down, we weak and greedy humans do.

Why do we as a people want to do away with religion? Despite the flaws of many who practice it, it has been a tremendous civilizing and socializing tool and continues to be so. Most people need something to believe in, whether it be Jehovah or Mithras. They need some goal to work towards, some redemption, some set of standards to live up to. Otherwise, life is pointless. I believe the loss of religous fundamentals in this country, along with the breakdown of the nuclear family, have led to the sad deterioration of our society as a whole. Is it better to have a society run amoke with no social mores or is it better to have a society held together by a set of fundamental beliefs that try to teach us a better way to live? The answer is obvious. The choice of a person\'s religion is far less important than the choice to live by its rules.

[Hungry]

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The Zohar is studied in the Yeshiva schools, and only when the student becomes a Rabbi, he will be ready to go into Zohar studies.It is written in Hebrew and as far as I know, there are no other language translations.

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Seadove,

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/tku/index.htm

I don\'t know if that\'s all of it, or if it\'s accurate. I haven\'t read it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The translator, S. L. Macgregor Mathers, is famous in occult circles, but I have no idea how good his Hebrew was.

That\'s a damn good site, BTW. It contains so much interesting stuff.

Hungry

[seadove]

Hungry

You have made my day. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Just the other day I was telling someone about the Zohar who requested a copy in English.I searched the internet, but I had no successes.I myself don\'t know if this is it though.

Thanks pal, I\'ll pass it on to those people who asked me for a translation.

BTW, I\'m not gonna read it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

I am afraid to know!!

[tallmacky]

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as been a
tremendous civilizing and socializing tool and continues to be so

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Yes Belgareth, a tool [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[foofoo]

is anyone gonna reply to my beastly post? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[tallmacky]

I will when I finally get up for a read, usually I am hyped to do this sort of stuff but I am drained right now hehehe. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]