EVOLUTION AND DARWINISM - ARE YOU A BELIEVER?

[foofoo]

first of all, we\'ll start with a poll. basically the theory of evolution, as pioneered within science by Charles Darwin and formulated by 8th century Arab intellectuals, states that species are created from mutating dna, as gradually over time, a species with similiar physiological but different genetic make-up will diverge into two seperate species over thousans/if not millions of years, hence laying the model for our apparent development from apes/monkeys etc.(ok not the most exact definition but you know what i mean) yet this is highly controversial for numerous reasons.

so the question is, <font color=\"red\"> EVOLUTION - TRUE OR FALSE? </font>


<FORM METHOD=POST ACTION=\"http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/dopoll.php\"><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME=\"pollname\" VALUE=\"1054603747foofoo\">


EVOLUTION - TRUE OR FALSE?


<input type=\"radio\" name=\"option\" value=\"1\" />TRUE
<input type=\"radio\" name=\"option\" value=\"2\" />FALSE
<INPUT TYPE=Submit NAME=Submit VALUE=\"Submit vote\" class=\"buttons\"></form>

[Gerund]

Of COURSE evolution is true. How can anyone possibly ignore the evidence? And God invented it, or more accurately, created it. God and evolution are not mutually exclusive.

[Elana]

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G-d and evolution are not mutually exclusive.


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[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[tallmacky]

Well if one picks up any religious book, they will see that guy never speaks of creating \"evolution\" at all instead it\'s either all happened in 7 days or whatever the other religous text(s) say.

Evolution does have a few small loopholes in it that prevent it from being 100%. Will people ever give up religion? Probably not, but ya\' never know.

[Sexyredhead]

Who says 7 days to God is exactly 7 days earth time?

*He also invented the other planets, and their days aren\'t the same number of hours as ours.

*Remember when God said to Noah (I believe it was Noah--mighta been Abraham) that he wouldn\'t talk to him for a while? And like, 100-150 years later, he speaks up again. Now, that\'s more than you and I would say is a \"while\".

My 2 cents. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[CptKipling]

Yeah but then 7 days is quite specific, \"a while\" isnt.

[Gerund]

I suppose God felt there were more important topics to cover, other than DNA &amp; evolution, etc.

Incredible isn\'t it, that he also doesn\'t mention electricity, magnetism, gravity, or any other natural laws or phenomena? Yep, He really neglected the sciences, huh? Wait -- I do specifically remember Him mentioning a rainbow, though! He musta thought THAT was important~

By the way, I believe conventional wisdom holds that the 7 days were not on a scale you have a perspective for to make a comparison.

[belgareth]

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Yeah but then 7 days is quite specific, \"a while\" isnt.

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Seven days on which world? Or seven days to an entity that could create a univers. How often in the bible does God speak in parables?

[CptKipling]

Aaaaaaaaand iirc it says something along the lines of \"and when the sun set on the seventh day...\" the fact that he talks about the sun setting defines the days as \"earth days\".

[belgareth]

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Aaaaaaaaand iirc it says something along the lines of \"and when the sun set on the seventh day...\" the fact that he talks about the sun setting defines the days as \"earth days\".

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Before you can argue that you\'ll need to demonstrate the bible is the actual, unaltered word of god. What about all the other holy books on this planet alone?

[Sexyredhead]

I will have to go back and check my Bible, BUT, for argument\'s sake, doesn\'t the sun shine on other planets?

[belgareth]

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I will have to go back and look, BUT, for argument\'s sake, doesn\'t the sun shine on other planets?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I\'ll still believe a metaphore that a primitive mind could accept.

[Gerund]

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Yeah but then 7 days is quite specific, \"a while\" isnt.

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You missed the point entirely!

If one commonly used measure of time -- \"a while\" means something else entirely to God, then another commonly used measure of time -- \"days\" would ALSO likely mean something else entirely to God.

I\'m surprised I had to explain that to you.

[Andy]

Do you know which sun was meant specifically ?

[tallmacky]

The religious excuses grow and change with the times.....

I find it hard to believe Christianity, a 2,000 year old religion holds any weight or truth beyond it\'s great moral lessons and guides for humanity. It\'s a rule book for sorts and a good one at that, I don\'t see the point in arguing that because it wouldn\'t be fair with so much factual and logical evidence on my side. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Christianity = 2,000 years
Existence of mankind = 200,000 - 300,000 years (Homosapiens)

There have been many religions before Christianity and there will be many after.

[Gerund]

Ahhhhhhh....... the incredible arrogance of youth in its certainty!

I remember it well!


Gerund &lt;------ used to be young, believe it or not~ &lt;chuckle&gt;

[Sexyredhead]

I keep thinking of that saying about letting everybody wonder if you\'re an idiot, or opening your mouth and proving it. *sigh* [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[CptKipling]

We call our sun the Sun, but other suns stars (commonly). Why would he be refering to any other planet?

Sorry guys, i just dont buy this part of the bible. My opinion is that it was just a plausable explanation as to how we were created, plausable and understandable to people at the time.

[tallmacky]

I noticed how you 2 didn\'t try to debate my argument, arrogance? I am just certain or as certain as I can be in my argument, I wouldn\'t go off on tangents though. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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To many Religion is part of their culture, especially in Southern America, no one ever questions it and if it is quesitons it is taken as an insult to ones \"culture\". I do not want to go off topic here or get someone to attach their point to a weak side of my argument, but I have/had one friend and he and his family were very religious, as of now they have left it, the kid that once told me that these people are going to hell or I am is now getting drunk every weekend hehe. I think his strict household had something to do with that. Do not argue that point, \'cause it\'s not a point just a personal story compouned to a short paragraph.

If you can argue my initial post I will surprised

[tallmacky]

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I think this may clarify the point some are trying to make about how the scriptures sometimes use time and actual literal days.

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I understand what they are trying to say, but it\'s just impossible, for a book written during the latter half of our existence to be taken as pure truth. What about the many millions of people who grew up and died without the knowledge of \"Christianity\". We are speaking and concerning ourselves with this issue because it is the hear and now. In another 2,000 years who knows [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

The reason and purpose for Religions and widely known, in some instances they server a greater good. Let\'s not forget that religion is man-made, look at millions who died in the name of this or that religion, or the hostile take over of one land just to spread the ideas of someone else. Christianity becomes part of one\'s culture and no one likes to see their culture analyzed and possible proven wrong.

[belgareth]

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If you can argue my initial post I will surprised

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Oh come on now, TM. Prove to us that all the evidence of evolution was not placed there by some all knowing, all powerful diety just to tempt the weak. Prove that man has been here for 200-300k years. We can argue in cricles all week but your evidence proves nothing when you are discussing an all powerful being.

Until you can provide proof of your assertions, your arguments have no merit.

[tallmacky]

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Oh come on now, TM. Prove to us that all the evidence of evolution was not placed there by some all knowing, all powerful diety just to tempt the weak. Prove that man has been here for 200-300k years. We can argue in cricles all week but your evidence proves nothing when you are discussing an all powerful being.

Until you can provide proof of your assertions, your arguments have no merit.

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Well when we get there, there is no reason to even speak Belgareth.

Whenever anyone debates, they are debating on known facts, logic, common sense and such right? Now all the logic and so on I believe is in my corner. No one debates on what \"they think\" or \"how they feel\". To tempt who from what? I believe if someone is raised in a religious and someone else is not, how can you hold that against someone?

[Gerund]

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I noticed how you 2 didn\'t try to debate my argument, arrogance? I am just certain or as certain as I can be in my argument.

If you can argue my initial post I will surprised

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TM, you simpleton, you almost make it too easy!

Anyone with a triple-digit IQ would realize that calling you arrogant IS the rebuttal to your argument, to whit:

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ar*ro*gance, (noun, 14th century): a feeling or impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims
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No charge for remedial support. But if you think I\'m going to explain THIS post to you if you go off the deep end, forget it.

There\'s an old maxim, which I\'ll now adhere to: Never argue with fools.

\'Nuff said.

[Gerund]

I should have added one more definition:

SUPREME arrogance: Believing that your arrogance MAKES you right.

[tallmacky]

Ummm I am getting off for a few, it will be interesting to see where this thread goes.
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Gerund, why not just try to debate my points? Why give me the dictonary.com explanation for arrogance? I know why you gave it to me, but it isn\'t helping your point. It\'s all in good debating fun.

see ya later alligators.

[Gerund]

And so I asked her, \"if dolphins are so darned smart, why don\'t they grow opposable thumbs and start building condominiums?\"

[belgareth]

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Well when we get there, there is no reason to even speak Belgareth.

Whenever anyone debates, they are debating on known facts, logic, common sense and such right? Now all the logic and so on I believe is in my corner.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You are basing your argument on something you cannot prove, only what you have read in a textbook, right? What makes a textbook any better than any of the holy books? Just because they are newer? Some textbooks claim evolution is a fraud. The ones you are familiar with are both relatively new and in the minority. What makes them right?

[tallmacky]

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You are basing your argument on something you cannot prove, only what you have read in a textbook, right? What makes a textbook any better than any of the holy books? Just because they are newer? Some textbooks claim evolution is a fraud. The ones you are familiar with are both relatively new and in the minority. What makes them right?


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Not, because they are newer, Belgareth takes this into consideration, If I wanted to see an early hominids bones I could go to a museuem and I could look at them, and if I am lucky even feel them [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Now that is proof that exists that I can latch out to and see.

Has there been any physcial proof proving that the many tales and stories in the bible are true? No, right? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Now we could say they were never meant to be taken as truth this and that and we could go on for years, but they were written as so and at that time were to be taken as truth, until later on as I said as the times change religion and it\'s basis seems to also. Why would solid proof of existence of god morph to fit our noble and lowly human culture(s) and personal beliefs?

I don\'t see how you disrupted my original point Belgareth, I told you that debates were based on facts, logic, and common sense. Is there physical proof of Evolution? YES. Is there any physical proof for Religion? No. Now I am not taking the side of either one totally, instead I am seeing that Evolution has much backing and logic in it\'s corner, go outside look at our world! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Science was never factored into any religion, I do not think my newer books are better becuase they are newer, I think they have more backing because, at this time in history we are able to answer the unanswerable questions we are able to use science, instead of not being able to answer common questions and thus making an excuse for certain if not all things. We know of the existence of hundreds of other religions before Christianity, why are we focused on Christianity alone? What makes it special, because it was part of your culture and you were raised, or you have a strong attachment to this? I am sure the Greeks sure did love their Gods and Godesses let\'s speak about them. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I would love to say that there is a different spin that we don\'t really know what\'s going on, that the greater god is testing us. I ask why so irrational? Why would you create evidence and thus elude us, it\'s another last ditch effort with no bearing at all to rattle our cages and to hinder our acknowledgement of the possibility of their not being a Christian god at all. (or any other) It\'s hard for me to iron out every point, If one would just look around without any bias he/she could easily see through the inconsistences. What seperates us from any other animal on this planet? One way the Christain religion works is by telling us that we are god\'s chosen ones, his favorite child. Why would god have a favorite child?, besides that it sounds like many other beliefs which gathers it\'s loyal subjects by teaching supremecy. Every animal seems to have it\'s gift, the cheetah can run fast, the cow can ummmm well forget the cow [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Man(and women) were given the gift of a larger and more complex brain. Does this technically make us better then any other species. Sure we received things like emotions and such due to the above. I am not saying that society is not amazing, but in that amazment there always has been and will be cruelty and death, man is an animal trying to be house trained, religion is a man made tool to help us in that process. The previous statement was not part of my debate but part of something I am thinking. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The bible was written by men who believed that a man was very special and attributed him to being the son of god? Would you believe if someone told you he was the son of god? Would you believe him 2,000 years ago?

[CptKipling]

When i find myself in a \"is religion reality or fiction\" debate, usually one of these happens (from the religion side):

- They tend to avoid the difficult questions.

- They fall back on pure faith, which cant be argued against and just prove\'s the uselessness of the debate.

- They call non-religious people ignorant


Like Whitehall (not intending to involve anyone here) once said, the definition of a fanatic i someone who closes his mind to other possibilities (crudely para-phrased).

Can someone tell me this (because i dont know), who what where when and how did Christianity come about?

[belgareth]

To make it clear where I am arguing from, I have no religous convictions whatsoever! No answers, just lots of questions.

First, what does it prove that you can go touch some bones? Ever hear of the piltdown man? Or the dig in the Saraha where they found a marvelous lost city? It turned out to be a lost movie set from the 1930\'s. Paleontology and archeology are both sciences of pure speculation. They make a lot of assumptioons based on earlier assumptions, very little is proven. They cannot prove how people lived in Jamestown 250 years ago, but you expect to be able to take a bunch of allegedly 65 million year old bones at face value? I am not faulting those scientists, just stating that many cumulative errors are not only possible but probable.

You are taking the validity of science on as much pure faith as the religous people are taking their beliefs. Remember, not all that long ago scientists believed a train could not go faster than 28 mph because all the air would be sucked out of the cabin and everybody would suffocate. Airplanes would never fly faster than sound and life could not exist at the bottom of the Marianas Trench.