Penis Improvement, sort of...

[shad0ws]

So I went to a lot of other sites and read some more info on the estrogens and such and decided also to stack on a diindolymethane (DIM) to convert any remaing harmful estrogens to good ones just to be safe. Anyway, I was seeing what the price was for their 4-ADerm and it\'s been discontinued... and at many places not just that one! At avant labs its self they didn\'t even have the topicals anymore.... damn the FDA [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img], I bet they had something to do with this.
So I ordered some more just in case and asked the guy at 1fast400 if he knew why.... I will report when I get an e-mail back.

Damn, I hope pheromones aren\'t next.

[Whitehall]

are available here:

http://www.lemelange.com/oil_liquid_cream_wax_g_-_p.htm

Besides the Isopropyl Myristate (IPM), I\'m eager to get some macadamia nut butter - ohhh!

[Jones]

Yeah thats a great site. The good people at anabolicminds.com know a LOT about transderms. There is a crash course on transdermals and they give you tons of links to suppliers. Lemange is good cuz you can get bottles and dropers and all that good stuff.


Day 20. 10 days remain until my full report.
Total Gains: Giggidy Giggidy!!!!!!!! (you know, like the perv neighbor in faimly guy)

[TBiRD]

Can somebody who knows what he is talking about , pls confirm this info I found :

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Beta-sitosterol is the active ingredient in saw palmetto berries, which have been used for centuries to treat patients with prostate and urinary problems. The active ingredient in saw palmetto as well as other herbal remedies such as Pygeum, stinging nettle, and pumpkin seeds is beta-sitosterol. Each BETTER PROSTATE capsule contains 300mg of beta-sitosterol. You would have to eat 2 lbs. of saw palmetto to get the same amount of beta-sitosterol as we have in ONE tablet. BETTER PROSTATE is 3000 times more potent than saw palmetto.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


So there is nothing special about saw palmetto besides the beta-sitosterol ! Is it right that I could the same beta-sitosterol out of pumpkin seeds ? They are ALOOOOOOOOT cheaper (and in huge amounts) than the saw palmetto stuff.


Here\'s the link to that page btw : CLICK ME

[Whitehall]

It is by no means certain that beta-sitosterol is the active ingredient in saw palmetto, nettles, pygeum, etc responsible for the positive effects on the prostate.

The beta-stuff is marketed elsewhere with no claim of prostate improvement. Hence, this looks like its just marketing BS. I think this stuff is a typical phytoestrogen.

You can try it but I suspect that the biggest effect you\'ll see in an increase in estrogens - that\'s just a guess though.

[Jones]

Has any studies actually quantified the effects of saw palmetto???

[trailblazer]

hey everybody, i am 20 years old and for about two years i have been experimenting with jelqing and other pe exercises and techniques i have learned about on the internet, basically pe forums and thundersplace (if anyone has any questions i would gladly answer them or point you in the right direction). i dont know what i was exactly when i started but i am 7.5 inches long erect and little under 5 inches in girth, but once i found this thread after whitehall\'s post at thundersplace i was very interested and have been following it for about two weeks and i got my 4aderm today. i would like to atleast get up to 8.5 inches in length and 5.5 inches for girth (9.5 is my real goal) and i would really appreciate it if you guys could answer some questions for me before i start using it
- how much should i apply twice a day? # of squirts
- do i need to avoid having it touch anything other than my shaft and head? like my testicles and what not, if yes how do u go about doing so?
- how long should i wait to let it dry and is going to do physical labor or activity ok within an hour of applying? probably since its a weightlifting supplement, but just to be sure
- is 4 weeks on and two weeks off 7 days a week good for results and my health?
- what precautions should i take to prevent any adverse side effects like prostate problems and other problems?
- do u think doing pe exercises along with 4aderm will increase gains? like with lifting weights
along with these questions anyother info would really be appreciated, once i start i will keep everybody posted with my results and what not, thanks again.

[Jones]

Sup People.

Ok. It has been 21 days. I an going to stop my cycle now. I will probably resume in 10 days or so.

Starting ELBP length: 6.5
Ending ELBP length: 7.1

Starting BP flaccid stretch: 6.75
Ending BP flaccid stretch: 7.25

Starting EG: 5.0
Ending EG: 5.45

PE excersizes: Zero. Cardio: Run once per week. Lifting: Once per week. Applications per day:2. Approx mass of 4AD in each ap: 20 mgs. Weight: No fluctuations. Hair line: No change. Sleep: 8 hrs. Masturbation Frequency: zero. Vits: Mg/Zn/Bcomplex. Meditation: Yes.

Some people gain .5 inches, one person gained nothing. Results may vary. I would say overall I am very pleased, and report nothing but sucess.

[CptKipling]

Jones did you evaluate the possible use of other andro\'s with 4AD?

[Jones]

Yes.

An important notice. If your on Finasteride (propecia), or another type 2 AR blocker, expect to see little to no results.

Either go off of the AR blocker, or stop using a topical PH.

[Patriot]

Any other updates guys?

[Jones]

Sup People. (from my post at thunders)

Ok. It has been 23 days.


Starting ELBP length: 6.5
Ending ELBP length: 7.1

Starting BP flaccid stretch: 6.75
Ending BP flaccid stretch: 7.25

Starting EG: 5.0
Ending EG: 5.45

PE excersizes: Zero. Cardio: Run once per week. Lifting: Once per week. Applications per day:2. Approx mass of 4AD in each ap: 20 mgs. Weight: No fluctuations. Hair line: No change. Sleep: 8 hrs. Masturbation Frequency: zero. Vits: Mg/Zn/Bcomplex. Meditation: Yes.

Some people gain .5 inches, one person gained nothing. Results may vary. I would say overall I am very pleased, and report nothing but sucess. currently off cycle.

[Whitehall]

I got bit on the balls by a spider last week (ouch!) so I\'m off the juice for a while.

I did order some isopropyl myristate for future lotions.

[Elana]

Please provide proof.
elanasprivateemail@yahoo.com

[Jones]

Actually I am not quite done yet, dont worry though, in a few weeks I will be where I want.

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I got bit on the balls by a spider last week (ouch!) so I\'m off the juice for a while.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] Holy crap, are you serious???!!! What the hell are the chances of that? Dare we ask how?

Holmes

[Andy]

Bizarre sexual techniques ? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] And I thought I\'d be unlucky because a snake bit me in my leg.

[Patriot]

Any other updates from the test mules.
So far 2 gained and 1 didn\'t if im not mistaken.

[Whitehall]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Holy crap, are you serious???!!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Serious. At least that\'s what the doctor said. I don\'t think it was related to our treatment regime since it\'s on a different part of the tissues. Antibotics, heat, and time are the remedies. I\'ve a big old stuffed chair on my patio (no rain in California in the summer) and I suspect that a spider crawled up the pantleg of my shorts one night while sitting out there. Gotta protect those family jewels!

[trailblazer]

if you guys would answer these questions for me i would gladly provide you with results at the end and along the way. ive had the 4aderm for three days now and havent used it yet.

- how much should i apply twice a day? # of squirts
- do i need to avoid having it touch anything other than myshaft and head? like my testicles and what not, if yes how do u go about doing so?
- how long should i wait to let it dry and is going to do physical labor or activity ok within an hour of applying? probably since its a weightlifting supplement, but just to be sure
- is 4 weeks on and two weeks off 7 days a week good for results and my health?
- what precautions should i take to prevent any adverse side effects like prostate problems and other problems?

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I\'ve a big old stuffed chair on my patio (no rain in California in the summer) and I suspect that a spider crawled up the pantleg of my shorts one night while sitting out there. Gotta protect those family jewels

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Gah! A strong argument for arming yourself with the patented Super Duper Bug-Away-brand Jockstrap. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] (Sorry.) Here\'s wishing you (&amp; yours--hahaha [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) a speedy recovery. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Seriously though, a buddy of mine got bitten by a Brown Recluse last year...not pretty.

Sorry to add a question on top of your question, Trailblazer (I\'ve no experience yet with 4-AD yet), but in addition to the obvious places [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], has anyone tried applying the stuff anywhere else for working out, i.e. arms, forearms, etc.?

Holmes

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
i- what precautions should i take to prevent any adverse side effects like prostate problems and other problems?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Somebody mentioned Saw Palmetto a while back, if memory serves me.

Holmes

[Whitehall]

Once a day and apply just to the shaft and head. The scrotum skin is very good at converting steroids to androgens and then those interact with your testicles. I don\'t think that heroic measures are necessary, like double underpants - just apply to the right place and let dry before squishing everything together in tight pants. Apply after a shower, not before.

Personally, I think that three weeks on is plenty; two on, two off would make sense. However, this is based on limited experience and is more a feeling than a scientific-based decision.

Saw palmetto seems like a sensible precaution to keep your prostate from swelling. Can\'t say that it is absolutely necessary nor that it will prevent problems we haven\'t seen yet - just seems prudent.

Above all - PAY ATTENTION to your body while your doing this. Awareness is your greatest safety asset.

[Jones]

I agree with whitehall. Watch your body.


Ok.

Shadows recently PMed me wondering how to make this stuff. I use ISOH and IPM as carriers. Obviously you can throw in DMSO, D-limonine, (which is interesting because L-limonine wont work), PEG40 or Carbomer 940. Be warned though. If you dont adjust the PH it will burn. Youll need pH strips and a base. I have no clue how one would get there hands on cheap NaOH, but I have just been toughing it out.


With this information, just double the ratios to make more of what you need.

I did the math/chem, and heres what you do:

1. Find a 2 oz container. Purchase 99% IPM and 99% ISO OH. http://www.lemelange.com/ click bodybuilding

2. Purchase PH. Use 3alpha or 4AD. Might considering poping 6oxo if you use 4AD.

3. In a volumetric container, or anything that you can eye ball, mix 3 parts ISO, 1 part IPM. If you use DMSO, make it 2:1:1 ISO:IPMMSO.

4. Mix liquid. Transfer solution to 2 oz container. Add 2 grams PH powder. Store extra liquid.

5. Shake, dissolve. Heat prior to application, use a dropper to apply 10 drops.

At 1 gram PH per oz, the solution is approx 30 mg/ml.

10 drops is about 25 mg\'s of PH.
This may be adequate. I use about 40 mg per application.


Id also like to report growth since I\'ve gone off the 4AD. Ill know soon exactly how much, Im not sure exactly why, but I have guess.

[shad0ws]

I didn\'t know not to go lower then the shaft [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] but now I will watch for that. I had noticed that the days that the 4-ADerm got a little lower that my tests. were a little sore, but they haven\'t shrunk or anything. And I was trying twice a day as well, is that too much?

Anyway, this is my update:
Chemicals:
--- 6-OXO (3;6;17-androstenetrione) aromatase suicide inhibitor (anti-estrogen conversion); 400mg (4 pills) a day in the evening for six weeks
--- Indolplex diindolymethane (DIM) (2-hydroxyestrogen to 16-hydroxyestrogen metabolite conversion) 240mg (2 pills morn, night) for 3 weeks, and then 1 pill for the remaining off cycle 3 weeks.
--- Cortistat-PS (phospholipids namely, PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE) (anti-cortisol for any body stress reactions) 2 capsules every other day, evening for six weeks
--- 4-ADerm (4-androstenediol; what we are all here for hehe, growth!) Topical, 3 squirts twice daily (upon whitehall\'s suggestion, probably droping down to one, and watching the scrotum!) for 25 - 30 days (3 - 4 weeks)
--- Saw Palmetto 160mg 1 capsule, evening, prostate health for six weeks
--- Multi-Vitamin 100% complex
--- Coral Calcium 1000mg


What I\'m thinking of adding:
--- Vitamin E for help in conversions.
--- ZMA? I might not need that.

lol 11 pils sucks, but it\'s only six week cycles

Stats:
Starting length: 6.25\"
Age: 21, Male (hmmm I don\'t think females would like giant clits. LOL)
Hight: 5\'8\"
Muscular build
Weight: 205lbs (need this down to 195lbs but I think 6-OXO is helping with that!)
Healing/recovery: very fast

Discusion:
I hope that by using the 6-OXO during this period I slam down the estrogen conversion of the 4-AD to make more of it bioavalible along with turning on the need for my body to keep the tests. in full production mode. Also, the increased test. from the ramp up in test. production might help with growth as well. The reason for the longer run time on the 6-OXO then the 4-AD is to regenerate any limiting effect from the 4-AD (test. conversion) feedback to the hypothalamus after the 4-AD stops.
In taking the DIM I hope to catch any converted metabolites of the estrogen that does convert and get them into a better ratio of 2/16-hydroxest. to limit any effects of the \"bad\" estrogen metabolites.
Cortistat-PS might help because I know messing with my hormone levels might trigger a stress reaction and I want to keep the cortisol levels down to stop any catabolic measures taken by my body during that time.... Through experimentation I found that only 2 pills every other day is PERFECT. I really feel calm and nice at that level. and it\'s at a no more no less balence (plus all of this $hit gets expensive you know!).
With the Saw Palmetto I have noticed that at first I had a little bit more frequent urination (possible sign of enlargment) and then as I kept on with the Saw P. it went away! I say this is a must. We\'ll find out though if it effects growth when I take off the 4-AD and measure.

What do you think about adding Vit. E and ZMA Jones, Whitehall, Andy, DST, etc etc!

Any other suggestions welcome.... I understand the body pretty well, but I think you guys are a lot more informed than I am... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Whew....


-Adam [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Jones]

Shadow, your very smart. You sups were a good choice. I wouldnt be suprised if you gained .5 iches in your fist week.

Most experts agree vit E is an important anti-oxident

ZMA, or any zink/mg as long as its not oxide, is good. Take b6 with the two for absorbtion. Zinc is involved in hundres on reactions in the body, same with mg.

3alpha goes directly to DHT via 3HSD. So in my book, its good stuff.

[druid]

i have been taking ZMA also.

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
i have been taking ZMA also.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

What brand is best?

Holmes

[Whitehall]

ZMA might make some sense as a booster. I\'m not sure which enzymes benefit from the extra zinc and which enzymes are involved in out 4-AD-to-T-to-DHT conversion chain. However, I suspect that its worth a try.

I don\'t think there is much to differentiate the various ZMA brands - the raw stuff is pretty simple and fungible. There are some brands that add some vitamin B6 (or 5?) that also helps the conversion processes. That would be worth a little bit.

However, I\'d shop on price.

[TBiRD]

Can you help me to find some online shop that would send the 4-AD spray to germany without problems at the customs office?
The 4-AD I ordered from the site that whitehall suggested is STILL being held back by the german customs office. I think they will send it back [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I haven\'t found any 4-AD sprays in Germany yet (wich doesn\'t mean its not availabe - i JUST HAVEN\'T FOUND ANYTHING YET...maybe other german forum members know better !)

Anotherthing is : Some friends told me that the problems I got at the customs office is because I ordered from America. If you order from other countrys it passes through without checking ! (Just what I got told , don\'t know if its true )

So if you people have any clues/online sites/suggestions , feel free to reply or private message me ! Thx in advance.