I invite your considered opinion, please.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Here\'s the situation.

A married man in his early forties has a wife who he loves very much and a daughter who he loves very much, and all would seem to be happy in Paradise, except that said wife has no interest in sex. Wife was pregnant with twins, one was stillborn, the other died soon after birth; a couple of years later, after a difficult pregnancy, she had one child that lived. Her interest in sex since then has been nill and this doesn\'t bother her. Husband has tried to increase intimacy between them, even just taking a shower together, never mind anything more adventurous. Wife has immersed herself in role as \"mother\" and turns a deaf ear.

Husband finds a woman on the side who he sees discretely maybe once a month or so.

What is your opinion of this man?

[furburger]

I understand why she would not want sex with such possible outcomes. If the two talked about the have sex or not and she decides no more sex, how can she exspect her husband to turn into a monk. If they plan to stay married I think it would be good for the husband to let his wife know that he needs the intimacy of sex, and ask her if he could see someone once in while to take the edge off. That might even get her thinking that she might want to consider not being celibate anymore. I know if I got cut off I would absoulutely go mad and seek relief somewhere. The rosey palm only goes so far after you had the real deal.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

She hasn\'t entirely cut him off - they have sex a few times a year - it\'s very loving - he makes love to her. He cares for her very much and loves their life together.

His sexual needs are not met.

But to press her any further only upsets her, which upsets the household, so he has chosen to enjoy what they do have, and seek some occasional comfort elsewhere.

Would you say this is a bad man?

[Sexyredhead]

Well, my opinion of the man is that he\'s in a real predicament. I can\'t honestly say I would condone what he\'s doing--the cheating, merely on principle. OTOH, I\'m not in his position, and if I had a husband doing the same thing his wife is doing, and he wouldn\'t help in any way to fix the problem, I don\'t know what I\'d end up doing to deal with it.

My opinion of the wife, unasked-for though it is, is that she\'s cutting out/ignoring a whole part of her life to keep from being hurt again, and needs counselling.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Assume for purposes of this discussion that the wife is not going to change.

[Sexyredhead]

Ughh, this is a tough one.

I\'d say what he\'s doing is wrong, but what she\'s doing is wrong too. That doesn\'t make him a bad person. That just means two people who love each other very much are going about solving a problem in the wrong way. Both of them are choosing to ignore it and go about their lives in a way that makes things easiest for them both to get by. Does that make any sense?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It makes sense if you are thinking in terms of conventional morality.

If you let go ideas of wrong and right, you could see it this way: she\'s happy, he\'s happy, the woman on the side is happy, kid is happy, marriage is intact.

[Sexyredhead]

Well, I tend to think of things in terms of conventional morality. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

But does it make him a bad person? No. Just a good guy doing the wrong thing. That\'s my opinion.

Why? Is he going through a funk again?

I\'ll back out now so somebody else can get a word in edgewise. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[tallmacky]

If everyone was happy and it\'s ok why was this question even raised? His love must be conditional. Is true love supposed to break our normal limits?
--------
Sex is not a total need as air, water, and food are. For the first 15/18/20 years of our life we go without sex. He will not die if he does not have sex.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s a hypothetical situation, SRH.

His only option other than to go outside his marriage is to resign himself to having almost zero sex, and what sex he does have ... not anything near what he needs.

\"cheat\"
\"bad\"
\"wrong\"

...

[seadove]

This story is only half about me.

I was divorced from my wife because I found out that not only she does not like to have sex, but also there was no love between us and all she wanted from me was to be a sperm donator, and to enjoy a stable financial condition from my family.

IF she had loved me, I would have made a big effert to stay with her and even live without sex.

Of course we broke off.Nothing in life tastes good without love.

I think this guy has every right to go out and search for sex if he does not find it in his house.But he should also have the guts to tell her to jump in the lake and find someone else for his happiness.Otherwise he would be living in a false and artificial life.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

He loves his wife and he loves his child.

You still say he should leave his family?

[MOBLEYC57]

What tis dis ting ve call LOVE? Better than that...what tis not LOVE? If cheating, abusing, hurting, disrespecting, or anything ugly falls under its definition...tis NOT love. Thee most deceitful thing in this world is the heart. Let me explain that with a questione...How many times have you told someone that you love them? Where are they now? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] People are very trigger happy with \"I love you.\" Anyone can say one of the world\'s most misused phrase, but...if you watch them carefully, you\'ll find most, are only talking. Words without action, belongs in a book. Those that fall under \"sex is a big factor\" will probably say he\'s doing the right thing. Those that can step from under that umbrella, will say he\'s wrong. The opions will often vary, but who\'s wrong....who\'s right? Love is much stronger than many of us could ever imagine. For those that can\'t imagine it...do the best you can. Family or sex...which would you choose? Seems as though the lady has made her choice, and so has he, if he\'s sneaking out. I was once told, \"You can love someone, and sleep with someone else.\" I beg to differ. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[DaVinciKittie]

Has the man discussed the sex situation with the wife? I don\'t tolerate any outright dishonesty in a relationship (cheating included, but I should specify that withholding information is not always lying), so I was thinking if he\'d spoken with her about this then they could go from there. Whether that be counseling (although we should assume the wife isn\'t going to change), an extra-marital affair (that the wife is well aware of), or even just acceptance of his situation, making sure the lines of communication are wide open is important. I\'d say, if he *has* spoken with her about this and she understands that he needs sexual fulfillment and still will not do *ANYTHING* to work with him, then he\'s not a \"bad\" man for having an affair, assuming he\'s upfront with her about it. Now, that kind of honesty could also kill his marriage, and if he really loves his family it\'s possible he\'ll choose to just deal with it instead of risking them. That\'s a tough situation.

[MOBLEYC57]

\"withholding information is not always lying\" Wait til your feet are in the receiving end shoes. You\'ll change your mind very quickly about that, unless it\'s withholding information about a surprise party or something. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] If the lady refuses to change, he\'s going to have to perform one of the most difficult task there is...make a decision. Doesn\'t sound like his lady knows anything about him loving outside the circle, to me. He\'s gonna have to make that ugly decision, or he can just keep sneaking until he gets caught. Ugly on top of ugly on top of ugly. How many times have we seen this...man/woman sleeping outside of the circle because they\'re not happy at home, but will never leave? Decision making....BREATH-TAKING/DEADLY! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Who\'s gonna help him choose? Not I says the dog. Not I says the cat. Not I say the rat. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[DaVinciKittie]

Have you seen the Friends episode where Monica and Chandler decide they\'ll have absolutely no secrets between them (ok, as I typed that I realized that I\'m one of the youngest people, women at least, here, so it\'s not likely you guys follow Friends- but the reference still stands...)? If you have, you know that there are some things you shouldn\'t share with *anyone*! Now, cheating does not fit into that category, nor does anything potentially damaging to a relationship, so the surprise party bit is more what I was referring to. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I think we\'re on the same level here Mobley. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Whitehall]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
That\'s a tough situation.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Tough, but all too common. It works the other way too but maybe not as commonly.

I understand the man\'s situation intimately. He is staying in the marriage to fulfill his promises and his responsibilities. The world will be a better place because of his actions.

She, for whatever reasons, has not or can not live up to her marriage promise (\"Free sex for life\" is one way to put it.) If he makes too big a deal of her failure, it becomes a form of cruelty towards her.

Seldom in this life is there perfect moral clarity. This is certainly an example. I\'m a pragmatist -the moral calculus here is:

1) the wife won\'t care if she doesn\'t know; plus she is not delivering on her promise of physical affection for her husband.
2) the husband is getting what he needs and is giving what he needs to be giving
3) The \"Other Woman\" is getting what she wants
4) the child has the love and resources of both parents.

To make an up-front declaration of taking a lover, the wife is put in a terrible position. She won\'t be looking very hard, either, since discovering her husband\'s lover will just make clear her own failures.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

There\'s also this: the other woman helps the marriage. The wife is no longer under pressure to do things she doesn\'t want to, and the husband knows he has the outlet he needs when he needs it, so it resolves the unhappiness between them on that one subject, and, yes, most importantly, the child doesn\'t suffer.

DaVinciKittie, I\'ve seen every episode of Friends at least twice.

Somewhere in the \"open and honest\" and \"communication is the key\" equation, discretion got lost, and the idea that some differences can\'t be mended got lost, and those are also facts of life.

Do you notice that as soon as the predicament is presented, folks try to wiggle out of it? Well, the wife should ... yeah but she won\'t. Well, then ... um ... ok, well then ... he\'s bad, no he\'s doing a bad thing ... he should LEAVE his wife and child, that\'s what! Because that\'s honest! or he should tell his wife in her face that he\'s going outside the marriage so she can really feel inadequate ...

This is one subject Whitehall and I agree on absolutely to a T.

I think the man is doing the right thing to stay married and act discretely on his own behalf.

I hate to hear men in this situation spoken of with no compassion for their very difficult circumstances.

[MOBLEYC57]

No disrespect WH...just my thoughts on....

1) the wife won\'t care if she doesn\'t know; plus she is not delivering on her promise of physical affection for her husband.

PHYSICAL AFFECTION COULD BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN SEX. A HUG, A KISS, CUDDLING, SPOONING, YUDDER YUDDER YUDDER.

2) the husband is getting what he needs and is giving what he needs to be giving

HE\'S GETTING WHAT HE \"\"\"WANTS\"\"\" AND IS GIVING WHAT HE \"\"\"WANTS\"\"\" TO BE GIVING. NO MAN OR WOMAN HAS EVER DIED WHEN THEY WEREN\'T ABLE TO HAVE SEX ANYMORE.

3) The \"Other Woman\" is getting what she wants

UNTIL SHE STARTS WANTING ALL OF HIM. IF HIS SEX IS GOOD, IT WILL END UP THAT WAY. IF HIS SEX IS NOT GOOD, SHE\'LL SETTLE FOR A ONCE IN A WHILE THING UNTIL SHE FINDS BETTER. THE REAL DEAL IN THAT IS...IF HE/SHE DOES IT TO ONE, THEY\'LL DO IT TO ANOTHER. TRUTH IS ETERNAL!

4) the child has the love and resources of both parents.

THE ONLY GOOD THING HERE, DEPENDING. SHOULD THE CHILD GROW UP IN A HOUSEHOLD WHERE MOM AND POP ARE ALWAYS FIGHTING, THEN IT\'S NOT A GOOD THING, FOR THEY WILL SEE LIFE AS SUCH.

Life deals such ugly hands, and we have no choice but to play them out. He\'s got to play. His wife\'s problem is pretty much all mental. Sex a couple of times a year, will drive most men outside of the circle. Just another thing to say thank you for, before I go to sleep. Who\'s right? Who\'s wrong? Who has the right to say? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] As the world turns................ [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The sex could be spectacular beyond the other woman\'s wildest dreams but maybe she\'s not a selfish beast and maybe she respects his family and doesn\'t want them made unhappy. Not all women are so venal as to try to take away someone\'s husband/someone\'s father.

[MOBLEYC57]

Agreed, but anyone with feelings will always want their OWN. How can one not? She doesn\'t have to be a selfish beast, or venal......just human. To some it\'s ugly, but it\'s only until their feet are in the water, that they will truely understand. I was told once that you can never judge a man or woman, until you\'ve walked in their shoes. NONE of us knows what another person goes through. N O N E of US.

[tallmacky]

This whole thread seems like a justification in third person.

If you were this man\'s wife would you want to know the truth, I think if given the option any woman would choose to know whether or not their partner has been faithful.

I still can\'t believe how much of an over justification this has been, even the original post in this seems a bit bias, it\'s painted as if this man is so devoted and loving to his family, but he has these needs, and has found someone to give them these needs. It may be true, but the likeliness of this being a good guy, and then doing something like this seems a bit doubtful.

Obviously this is a real life situation and probably not far from someone\'s actual happenings [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]. Even the woman who knows this man is married is in the wrong, I could understand if the man did not tell the women, but if the women knows that the man is married she should atleast not submit into sex so quickly maybe not even at all.

I think Mobley is on the money, there is a bit of spin put on this issue, lets just be honest, there is a gray area but in the end there is right and wrong. I can understand the gray area but in this case it does not seem like it has the qualifications for the \"gray area\" instead its a right or wrong.

Maybe if his wife was cheating on him and going behind his back and such that would go in the \"gray area\". He took those vowes, for better or worse, and in sickness and health......he\'s wrong.

By the way as painfully as it is for him to not have sex, it\'s just as bad to force her to have sex, or for her to feel obligated. This issue may not show just how wrong it may be, what if she had breast cancer, and he felt displeased would he have the right to cheat also?

[Whitehall]

Mobes,

\"No one ever died from lack of sex\"

I have to counter - Can you say you are living without physical affection, without a human touch?

In fact, human touch is vital to life - look at the Romanian orphanages where the babies died from lack of touch. People of all ages need touch and having a decent sex life is a matter of health.

Sorry but one human can not demand that a marriage vow will sentence another a life without human touch.

The medical issue is that when the libido goes, so does all memory of the feeling. She doesn\'t even know what she is missing. It\'s one of the odd tricks of memory - you can look it up.

[DaVinciKittie]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
DaVinciKittie, I\'ve seen every episode of Friends at least twice.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Whew! I was really starting to feel rather, err, young, so I hesitated to emphasize that with a reference to Friends. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Geez, I didn\'t mean the guy should throw his affair in his wife\'s face! After reading Whitehall\'s post I realized that\'s how it sounded, and essentially I agree with both of you. The honesty issue is just a big deal for me, so that\'s where that came from. Sorry if I gave the impression that I have no compassion for the family\'s circumstances! Definitely not the way that was intended to come across. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Ok, I\'ll just remove my 25 year old self from this topic that I obviously have no experience with! LOL [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s true that after childbirth many women have a hormone shift such that they lose interest in sex. They don\'t want it anymore. And they don\'t understand why the man still does. Why can\'t he just \"settle down\"?

It\'s a problem.

Right and wrong and bad and good and should and ought to don\'t help much either.

[tallmacky]

you have a point FTR (too \"gray\" for me.) I will for once butt my big head out of this, as I don\'t know it all (still think I do) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[MOBLEYC57]

\"Mobes,

\"No one ever died from lack of sex\"

I have to counter - Can you say you are living without physical affection, without a human touch?\"

Oh Hell no! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] No one should live without a human touch! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] I need to touch rathter than being touched. When I\'m able to touch, I\'m touched. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] I\'m talking about his LOVE, and....

\"She hasn\'t entirely cut him off - they have sex a few times a year - it\'s very loving - he makes love to her. He cares for her very much and loves their life together.\"

...from that, with his love, he should make it don\'t you think? That\'s what I\'m talking about. If I didn\'t get to touch I would be put in jail. \"Mobley gets arrested for touching women\" would be the headlines. \"Women all over the world getting touched by the Mad Toucher\" would be another. Somebody\'s getting touched!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Anywho, what I meant was...someone in LOVE should somehow be able to manage it, getting it twice a year. Is that right? Hell no! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] But, it can be done...when it\'s LOVE. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sorry on my behalf, DVK - I have a dial up connection that will drop suddenly and I\'ll lose everything I typed - sometimes my posts from home are a little abrupt because I\'m typing fast and furious trying to get my point across before the connection drops, which it seems to do about every 15 minutes.

I just meant by that to say in passing that I would understand your reference. I loved that show. The whole Thursday night line up used to be so good.

And whatever you have to say on the issue is of interest to me.

[MOBLEYC57]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Right and wrong and bad and good and should and ought to don\'t help much either.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Nothing is going to help love. You already have all the answers you need. Even before you typed the post. If I could tell you something to fix it all, I would without a second thought. But I can\'t, no one can, and you already know that too.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My point was that it\'s easy to pass judgment.

I don\'t need help.

But people in difficult situations who have judgment passed on them might need compassion and not to be preached about.

That was all I wanted to get across.