I invite your considered opinion, please.

[monesrule]

maybe there is no right and wrong in the situation. i know i would live without sex to be faithful to my wife. anyway, he is still getting it a few times a year and there is masturbation. but if he can\'t help himself and he would choose leaving the family if he couldn\'t have a mistress, then what can you say?

someone wrote about the other women getting screwed over (no pun intended). anyone who gets in a relationship with a married man doesn\'t deserve anyhting. if she didn\'t know it orginally, and then finds out, the fact that she isn\'t disgusted by his actions and still has feelings for him gives me 0 sympathy for her. You want more than sex? Then go somewhere else or quit complaining.

[belgareth]

Having been in a similar situation fairly recently, I have strong feelings about this.

The woman is being inconsiderate of her husband first. I wonder at their relationship and her motivations in the whole thing. The wife, in a sense is being unfaithful to her husband\'s needs. Isn\'t a marriage a series of comprimises? It sounds like it must be her way, period. Providing that there is no medical condition affecting her sex drive, they need to come to some comprimise that satisfies them both. SRH was right in suggesting counseling. It sounds like she is getting upset as a way of avoiding budging from her position.

Regardless of that, the husband has made certain commitments himself. His sex drive is not an excuse to break his word or lie to his wife. As the old saying goes, two wrongs do not make a right. If a comprimise cannot be worked out, if she will not openly accept him having a lover on the side and he feels his sex life has a higher priority, his final option is to end the relationship. No relationship should ever be based on dishonesty.

[monesrule]

i think it says that they went through years of counseling to no avail. I wonder if sex is really owed in a marriage. Obviously it would be nice if she gave it up more, but what happened to her was heartbreaking and tramatic and that shouldn\'t be trivilized. i understand he doesn\'t want to break up the family, but does he truly love her if he can\'t take control of his sexual urges. masterbate. a ton of husbands who aren\'t getting any do it. Maybe he has an insanely hi libido though.

[BassMan]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Here\'s the situation.

What is your opinion of this man?



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Looks to me like this man has a lot of heartache.

He\'s longing for intimacy with his wife, whom he seems to still love. Whatever her reasons, she is denying him that intimacy in some real important ways.

The long-term deceit in his life can only increase the distance between them. That\'s gotta make it hurt even more.

Long-term sex is going to create a bond with his mistress. And the rules of the game (staying with his wife) don\'t allow him to surrender to that bond. He\'s got to keep the mistress at a distance.

All in all, I suspect this man has a real hurting heart.

Not to mention the others, but you asked about him...

[tallmacky]

FTR are you involved with this man, from the way you are arguing it and putting up the argument it seems so. If I am wrong please let me know.

[MOBLEYC57]

In 100 years...it all won\'t matter none. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[Goddess]

My two cents worth...
1) I personally cannot understand a woman who doesn\'t like/want sex. It\'s on my mind all the time.

2) Secondly, they BOTH lost the babies, not just the wife. Seems to me she is using this as an excuse and she isn\'t the only one being hurt by it.

3) Third, if it were me, I would want to know. In fact, I told my guy that if he wants sex with another woman, I want him to do me the courtesy of telling me first. There is NOTHING I would hate more than finding out after the fact. This would really make me feel worthless and like he had no feelings for me.

4) My ex-husband would sometimes with-hold sex (for months) as punishment for one of any number of imagined crimes that I had done. I never cheated on him, much as I wanted to. And when we divorced I had a love/hate relationship with him. I no longer play games or allow anyone to play games with me. I suspect that this married man also has a love/hate relationship with his wife. Would this be my definition of true love? Nope, not anymore. If this is true, then this married man and his wife have an unhealthy love relationship. My ex and I also went to counseling. Doesn\'t mean we shoulda stayed together. Doesn\'t mean we were blissfully in love with each other.

So I can see both sides of the fence at the same time and commiserate with all - husband and wife and \"mistress\".

None of this answers your question...is he bad? Bad is in the eye of the beholder (to paraphrase) In my world I tend to live and let live, and don\'t much care what someone else thinks about me. Life\'s too short to live it someone else\'s way (spoken by someone who has come back from the brink of death - I too lost a baby and ended up close to death - was comatose and Drs. called all my family in to see me one last time. I didn\'t tell you all this for sympathy, just that wife isn\'t the only one bad sh*t happens to.)

Each person has to decide what they can and will/cannot and will not live with. It\'s not my place to judge anyone else. I can only judge MY actions.

Again...for what its worth.

Goddess

[**DONOTDELETE**]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Here\'s the situation.

What is your opinion of this man?



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Looks to me like this man has a lot of heartache.

He\'s longing for intimacy with his wife, whom he seems to still love. Whatever her reasons, she is denying him that intimacy in some real important ways.

The long-term deceit in his life can only increase the distance between them. That\'s gotta make it hurt even more.

Long-term sex is going to create a bond with his mistress. And the rules of the game (staying with his wife) don\'t allow him to surrender to that bond. He\'s got to keep the mistress at a distance.

All in all, I suspect this man has a real hurting heart.

Not to mention the others, but you asked about him...

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Smooch, smooch, hug, Bassman. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Belgareth, what about the child?

Goddess -- my husband, too, and I never cheated either ... and I did leave ... but if I\'d had a daughter he adored who adored him, I don\'t think I would have left. And I probably would have cheated eventually.

About sex ... this couple married young and she had not had much experience. There is sex and there is sex. This woman verges on prudish. Not AT ALL in touch with her inner slut. She\'s completely identified with the Madonna side and there ain\'t no \"whore\" about it, if you know what I mean. So even if she had a little more drive, it would still be kind of tepid sex because her range is so limited. She is not interested in expanding her range.

[seadove]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Goddess:Third, if it were me, I would want to know. In fact, I told my guy that if he wants sex with another woman, I want him to do me the courtesy of telling me first.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

This is unusual.From my experience women say that first and when the man comes out with \"ok, I\'d like to screw my blonde neighbour please\" she\'ll clobber him with an axe....on a bright and fruity sunday afternoon. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

And then clobber the neighbor, I think, is how it usually works ...

[seadove]

Love is so painfull.

Always.

[Whitehall]

There is a saying for women that applies here,

\"If you love your children, you\'ll love their father.\"

\"Love\" means many things. In a marriage, it also means satisfying him sexually so he won\'t search outside to fullfill his natural urges. It used to be called \"the wifely duty.\" Still makes sense to me.

Sorta works the other way too.

[seadove]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Whitehall:Sorta works the other way too

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

B I N G O !!

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Belgareth, what about the child?




<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Red,

I can\'t answer for the child in any realistic sense. Here are my concerns:
Should a child grow up in a home with that type of tension? If the husband gets no intimacy, there will be building resentment that the child will see. If the husband has a clandistine lover and gets caught, then what will the child see? What will her thoughts be about her father then? How much damage will be done to their relationship? IF the man has an open lover, what will the child learn about fidelity? What happens if/when the lover decides she wants more than a part time bed warmer?

IMHO an honest break and a respected father will teach the child more than living with the alternatives. Maybe they can manage it without a negative impact but I\'m sceptical. The child will get hurt anyway it goes. A quick clean break will probably cause her less pain and reduce damage to her in the long run.

IS he a bad guy? Don\'t know him and don\'t know her. The situation is far too complex to judge in black and white. Has each person done their best to avoid hurting others?

[DrSmellThis]

Of course, one problem is that this vignette, or moral dilemma, is amputated from those people\'s inner and outer lives. This is problematic because we must make moral decisions based on our whole life stories, and those of significant others around us, in order to genuinely feel like we have done the right thing.

Another problem is that any invitation to judge the man ad hominem presupposes both: (1) that such judgement is useful; and also that (2) this man has no right to be free of our judgement. Who are we to judge him, in pursuit of some endorphin rush, or whatever? It is possible to make wise and prudent decisions, and to help others make them; without judging ourselves or anyone else.

I am happy to see some people emphasizing compassion for everyone involved. People all have a right to compassion, and yet such respect doesn\'t appear to be coming anytime soon on this planet.

The study of pheromones indicates that we are basically a bunch of monkeys pretending not to be. For now, we will keep throwing coconuts, and supposing that the sh*t we keep smearing on ourselves should be a matter of pride.

[bivonic]

\"You\'ve lost that loving feeling...\"

I think this one is cut &amp; dry.

Does he love her?
Does she love him?
She has needs.
He has needs.
They need to communicate &amp; find out what is important in their relationship.
If he says \"sex\" (as trivial of a word that some may think has no meaning) is very important to him &amp; she cannot accept this AND is not willing to try the variety of drugs available that put her into the mood equal to his then I think she is not trying to make the relationship work. If it is not a physical thing but more of a mental block (due to some past experience) which I find hard to believe as how it was originally written: they still make love a few times a year - then my question is why *only* a few times a year?! Just to clarify, if it is a hormonal shift (read \"biological\" change) that is a result of childbirth, then let\'s try to get those hormones back up. I can understand how this could be a rare side effect of having children, but I know for a fact it hasn\'t happened to anyone in my family (my parents included &amp; that\'s after having 5 kids!!!).

If her level of intimacy cannot reach a level that her husband \"needs\" and is unwilling to try prescription drugs from a doctor, then I firmly believe they should separate / get a divorce. That is just my opinion, I would much rather value that then cheat on my wife. It makes little difference if children are involved, I would not love them any less.

I guess the last loophole I would need to cover is, what if she tries every drug in the world &amp; it has no effect on her, she still only gets the urge a few times a year? I may be stubborn in saying this, but they could seek counseling &amp; try that for a bit, but in my logical opinion it\'s a mental block that exists, counseling may be able to bring this to surface, but the big question is how much counseling does the couple endure? How much is too much or too long?

[monesrule]

i think the heart of the issue is whether \"wife duty\" really exists. Just because you get married to someone, do you have to satisfy them sexually even if you object to it? To me it has that slight undertone of forced sex and you know what that is called. Does it say anything about sex in vows, or just love and commitment?

Now I know anyone can argue about how it is selfish of the woman to withhold sex, etc, but lets not judge that for a minute and accept that she doesn\'t want to do it. Is it breach of contract?

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
i think the heart of the issue is whether \"wife duty\" really exists. Just because you get married to someone, do you have to satisfy them sexually even if you object to it? To me it has that slight undertone of forced sex and you know what that is called. Does it say anything about sex in vows, or just love and commitment?

Now I know anyone can argue about how it is selfish of the woman to withhold sex, etc, but lets not judge that for a minute and accept that she doesn\'t want to do it. Is it breach of contract?


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Breach of contract, I don\'t know, it depends on the implied contract as much as the written one. Irreconcileable diferences would be more appropriate, I think.

Is it an obligation? No, but compromise to a middle ground is each partner\'s obligation. Do you think a couple times a year is fair to both parties? Should either party get away with having it their own way exclusively?

[bivonic]

I can understand how you think I was assigning blame. It was not my intention, irreconcilable differences is the best way to word it. It can work both ways, if the man was going down on her a ton while they were dating because he knew how much it turned her on &amp; then only did it on occassion after marriage &amp; this was something that she needed then she would have every right to get a divorce. I\'m not talking in the legal sense just the moral sense.

[Whitehall]

For those of you willing to criticize the man, I can only say hold off until you\'ve walked a mile in that man\'s shoes.

You work hard to feed, clothe, and house a woman and then come home to a cold shoulder - for months on end - and THEN you can hand out advice.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah, those shoes pinch, don\'t they? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Whitehall, what about this? He\'s not a \"Family Man\" because he\'s having sex outside his marriage.

What would you say to that?

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
For those of you willing to criticize the man, I can only say hold off until you\'ve walked a mile in that man\'s shoes.

You work hard to feed, clothe, and house a woman and then come home to a cold shoulder - for months on end - and THEN you can hand out advice.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Having been there, it\'s about the most depressing thing I can think of. Bivonic does have a point though. We don\'t know the situation, what expectations were, etc. In my own narrow little world, I cannot see being dishonest with my partner, but that\'s just me.

[biteme]

I havn\'t read the entire thread, but the original \"scenario\" reminds of a similar situation a female acquaintance of mine was in a few years ago.

She wanted sex and loved sex, but her (now) ex-husband didn\'t. They had sex maybe once every six months. As far as I know, he was not having an affair. She said it was like he was afraid of sex or something. His older sister was put into an institution when she was 17 or 18 years old by their parents. This was back in the early \'60s. She was sleeping around w/lots of guys (the whole free love thing). She spent a year in the institution and was literally brain washed. So, my female acquaintance thinks that her ex-husband learned early on that sex was bad or something. Her theory.

But I digress. SO, w/him not \"doing his job\", she went looking for sex elsewhere. She loved him and their kids. But she was a very sexual person and wanted sex.

She had an affair for six months before the ex-husband found out. Needless to say, it led to divorce.

I havn\'t spoken to her in a while, but last I heard, her current sex life is very good, and her ex-husband remains a lone wolf.

[tallmacky]

Your partner that you marry, you share two bonds right sexual and mental. So if my wife stopped talking to me would I be allowed to seek out others to talk intimate with. Would that be cheating in some way? I am not saying I agree with what happen but I am just throwing in another question.

Then again if I sought out someone else to talk to, isn\'t there a strong possibility that the talks like most things in human relationships would grow closer, that we would end up having an affair out of pure will alone.

On the flip side, after sex again and again with his mistress wouldn\'t he begin to grow an attachment with her a bond? Would this leave the wife now ex-wife totally alone?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You can love more than one person at one time. There is no need to leave one to be with another. There\'s not even that desire. But there\'s not that necessity.

You don\'t have to marry everybody you love.

Some people don\'t even want to get married.

[Whitehall]

Some of you question whether or not there is \"a wifely duty\" for a woman to provide sexual release for her husband.

I would submit that mothers who adopt this idea will tend to keep their husbands compared to those who do not acknowledge \"a wifely duty\" and have little libido. The children of women who follow the duty concept will prosper relative to those who don\'t - on a statistical basis.

In most cases women with low libido - sex drive - still respond and enjoy sex once it is initiated. Just because a sense of duty gets the ball rolling doesn\'t mean that sexual fulfilment for both partners can\'t happen.

Personally, I don\'t like to see broken homes and children in single parent homes - been there, done that from both sides. The children are the losers there.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think the phrase \"wifely duty\" raises some hackles ... it\'s a marital obligation on the part of both partners to keep each other happy sexually. You\'d be surprised at how many men refuse their wives sex. It happens.

[Lucky]

You know, I\'m beginning to think it\'s a power *thing*. Control freaks...what jerks.

[Whitehall]

If the husband doesn\'t sexually satisfy his wife, she can always find a guy to impregnate her. That leaves the husband as the loser since he is still on the hook for supporting the other man\'s child barring discovery.

I think Lucky hit on a motivation for some women (one I know personally) - power.

In either case, the withholder of sex is a fool for not trying to satisfy their spouse.