Why women in the workplace has helped destroy USA

[DrSmellThis]

This is a very interesting discussion.

Clearly, maximal societal benefits result from the maximal utilization of collective individual gifts. There is something plainly wrong-headed about any notion that the mobilization of extra societal resources -- in this case the talents, concern, and skills of women -- could, per se, be bad for society.

Feminism did not start with \"some communist,\" but was a significant movement at least since the time of Plato, in 300 BC. In the Republic, Plato advanced the radical proposition that women should be afforded equal opporunity for education, advancement, and State rule; in his utopian Republic. Further evidence for Plato\'s position can be found in his wonderful play, the Symposium, Wherein lady Diotima\'s speech on the nature of love trumped even that of Socrates, the usual hero in Plato\'s dialogues. Another oft overlooked root of feminism is in the writings of Nietzsche, (approx., 1970-1890) whose ne\'er before seen concept of empowerment fueled every humanistic struggle since, including that of feminism. And of course, we mustn\'t overlook sufferage, in the early 20th century.

That the family unit has broken apart is undeniable. But fatherly wisdom is as much lacking here as is motherly nurturance, in Western culture. The motherly brand of nurturance is not the only \"nurturance\", moreover. It is a fatherly cop-out to suggest otherwise. Bly and others have made the case compellingly, that the lack of good fathering is more prominent than any motherly absence. It is equal at this time, IMO, as regards parenting.

The historical roots of this vacuum lie in the Industrial Revolution, which transformed men from their heretofore presumed role as \"moral teachers\" to that of \"distant breadwinners.\"

The forces of capitalism are extremely efficient and powerful. The telos of capitalism is to exploit all human resources for the puposes of production and consumption. It was a matter of time before women needed to go to the workplace.

I do agree that kids need more parental pesence at home, but the idea that it needs to be moms instead of dads is part of the problem, not the solution. The lack of fathering has left societal lesions everywhere you look, from politics to health care, to education. Our institutions are indeed failing us, and a lack of wisdom is their defining characteristic. I am currently preparing such a case; a book on the \"want of wisdom\" in the West.

[Lucky]

DrSmell,
Why has there been a \"lack of fathering\"?

[belgareth]

TM

Very well said. Thank you.

[tallmacky]

Feminism related to communism? What I think not! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Whether feminism is radical is well up to, you must remember though that no one listened and no one especially males cared too much on how women were treated, their rights and so forth. When it gets to that point and it goes on long enough there really is no other option but to be more poignant with your speeches and more aggressive for your needs.

Think of things that don\'t generally effect you, think of I don\'t know names like \"fat ass\" if you aren\'t fat you may think so what and when you hear that insult it doesn\'t faze you at all, its not your problem right. When a fat girl hears that she may be hurt by that so much that you would never know. It\'s kind of sad how we as people can\'t see the inequalities in treatment among eachother.

PS. I was using the thing as an example lets not hijack this into america\'s kids are fat or something hahah [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

thanks belgareth and nice post dr.smell

[Whitehall]

It\'s not that feminism has mobilized additional resources, it\'s that those resources have been re-directed away from family and civic life to the commercial and material. I live in a fairly affluent neighborhood and it is the stay-at-home moms who make what civic life we have work. Most educators will tell you that the difference in a good school and a bad school is the involvement of parents - largely stay-at-home moms - in making them work above and beyond government spending. Poor neighborhoods where the moms have to work suffer from that lack of involvement. So far as I can see, soccer moms are the last hope of Western Civiliation.

As to parenting, there is a difference in maternal and paternal parenting behavior. IT springs from the sexual dimorphism of the human brain. I\'ve been a single father and there are certain behaviors that are just not hard-wired for a man (and seemingly, vice versa.) I speak from experience - my lack of mothering skills is one thing I regret denying my first batch of children. Yes, a child can\'t have too much love - from either parent.

Of course, the back-and-forth of sexual relations has a long history, one that reinforces Marx\' view of society representing the means of production - society has to adapt to and support how we feed ourselves.

Nietzsche is an interesting character. While I\'ve read him extensively, he was a complete failure in family life - probably dying a virgin and having only a single romantic obsession on record - for Wagner\'s wife (if I remember correctly). He did identify the tone of the \"Modern Era\" correctly but some things are won and some lost in the transformation.

[tallmacky]

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soccer moms are the last hope of Western Civiliation.


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[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]sure.

I thought this was originally about how American women and feminism has ruined the economy but as I can you are well off. There\'s a negative to every situation, is it that traumatic, or there no other avenues?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

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Whitehall. You\'re so sexist you can\'t see straight.

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I guess that\'s meant as an insult. The word is, of course, a feminist construct used to stigmatize those who don\'t agree with the feminist agenda.

Feminism is an ideology that has repeatedly advocated positions that contradicted common sense, received wisdom, and scientific facts. It\'s all been about how to justify \"I wannas\" as \"We oughtas.\"

You make your choices, you live your life, and you accept the responsibilities. My complaint is that feminism has distorted society\'s rules to the detriment of men, women, and children - feminists have forced the costs of their \"independence\" upon others who have not bought into the ideology. Individual feminists have paid prices too - things didn\'t turn out as rosy as promised - many feminists refuse to admit the costs.

BTW, I would indeed be happy to start a third batch - but with a woman who had her priorities in order.


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I did not mean it as an insult. I meant it as an observation. With respect, you remind me very much of the racist who says he doesn\'t mind niggers, everybody should own one, and is genuinely shocked and hurt when it\'s pointed out to him that his point of view is somewhat unenlightened. What scientific facts are you speaking of?

You had children and worked. It\'s ok for you but it\'s not ok for a woman. Why does it not make just as much common sense for you to have stayed home with your children rather than your wife?

I do get the sense from you that you don\'t quite see women as equals. You see them as having certain uses in relation to men. Anything other than those certain uses, it appears to me, are things to which a woman has no right because she\'s a woman.
That\'s sexist as in racist, as in putting an entire class of people in a pigeon hole. It has nothing to do with feminism that I can see, to say that one is sexist.

I\'m astounded at the kick ASS young female attorneys at our firm. I have one in particular in mind - a gorgeous education, highest honors from a seven sisters school, went on to get a ph.d. in physics with a specialty in optics, and then got her law degree, she\'s a superlative patent attorney in an area of patent law that\'s especially hot right now.

Should she not have children? Or, if she does marry and have children, should she have to stay home and be knocked off track for partner because she\'s the woman?

Would it be wrong if she married, had children, and her husband stayed home to raise the children (after they were weaned, of course)?

Seems like soccer dads would not be such a bad thing.

...

In the marriages of the affluent people I\'m acquainted with, the wives do not work. Partner\'s wives generally do not work. Most attorney\'s wives do not work, in fact, whether they have children or not, because someone has to run the household while the attorney is working 60-70 hour weeks over a seven year partner track. But if that attorney were female ... what would you think about her male counterpart taking over the household duties, including child rearing?

Or would you want a woman as focused and brilliant as the one I described to stay home with a baby for up to five years and ruin her career chances.

[tallmacky]

I know where FTR is going with this though her words like sometimes, are a bit too strong, and the lady she speaks of is not my type of argument (repetitive). No o\'s FTR.
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Those who hold and suppress others while being a Hitler like figure, a ignorant redneck, or just someone who spills $hit out of their mouth, have already lost their argument.

Let\'s get something straight there is absolutely no super power group among us human beings. Arguments like this and any other that relates are aging and possibly may die someday (hopefully). Humans have always tried to have a feeling of importance and higher being, and have used others to fill this need, whether it\'s a supposedly heaven sent king and queen or someone hurting someone else because their skin happens to be a little darker, when we can\'t see the physcial side we go farther and fight for the most obnoxious reasons such as religion, look at Ireland for f$ck sake. Are we ever better than anyone? The thing that makes me laugh is at the end of the day we all take a shi$, we all will die, we all are not as important as we think, we are all animals. Why, because you have penis or your skin is lighter you are some how higher up? Of course woo hoo there are much more differnces then what I just said, yes more differences more little insignificant differences that in the end don\'t mean anything (some may effect things in the somewhat rare occassion). I still feel that Human beings by nature itself are not nice creatures, instead we are ignorant, evil, stupid, gross, and self satisifying to name a few. I am not sure what helps all I know is a general understanding of everyone plays a big role.

A man and a women were not created the same, instead we were split into two dynamic roles, hey we are more complex species this was needed, the spreading of different genetics instead of the same old crap every generation and all [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. So a ying and a yang were created I guess you could say, no side could possibly be better because they couldn\'t exist without eachother, you take away the women and there is no man and vice versa. For gods sake your mother is a women! Surprisingly men dominated for so long because they were the ones at the end of the day with the money by their side, this along with the teachings of society bound women, yes and even maybe this was also due to mother natures influence.

I would not have a women as a firefighter (say that alot) for obvious reasons? The same goes for men in other roles not sure which ones, hell I am just thinking now :void. Men are also more likely to kill, more likely to molest children, and more likely to be in jail right? Should we contribute all the murders and heartache to the men and talk about how men have ruined everything? Both sides have their weaknesses and strong points for the common good of a collective group (all). When you talk about office jobs I cannot see why a women is at a huge disadvantage? Soccer moms? are they happy sure they could be, but calling soccer moms america\'s whatever you said is stupid you are enforcing the idea that a women should just stay in \"here\" place.

Another addition to my earlier argument, I said we were split etc... We were split to perform to completely different tasks, but mother nature was not so stupid as to leave us enable to perform other tasks if needed, sure its not always as easy but it works and in some cases it works even better. BTW look at female and male scores in school, what\'s the huge difference where women are enable to do anything? Whitehall you are a pretty old guy right (50\'s?)? what if I thought well you are not efficient anymore, your memory is forgetful, your body is not nearly as useful, your quickness has passed away. You old run up America\'s health care system and are completely useless and non-efficient. What if I thought you should stay home and do things fit for a person of your age? Very cold thinking eh? Whoever, well if someone is looking down on us must be laughing at us because we believe and believed that some guy with a crown on his head is godlike, and blah diddy blah blah.

{let the spelling errors ensue.}

[belgareth]

TM

I have only one disagreemant with what you said. Humans are not bad or evil by nature. Other than the hard wiring we are born with, the human mind, like any other creature is pretty much a blank slate to be written on. We are blessed with this wonderful machine we call mind and over the next 70 years or so we fill it with all kinds of stuff. What we fill it with is a reflection of our earliest experiences, that sets much of the pattern for the rest of our lives. If we are taught to be mean, violent or domineering, we probably will be that way forever. If we are raised to be kind, proud and understanding, we will probably be that way the rest of our lives. For that reason, I emphasize that a young child needs the nurturing of both parents, we learn many important things from both. DrSmellThis made some very good points about what we lost in the industrial revolution. We all have an obligation to teach our children.

Both you and FTR are right about the stupid emphasis and external factors. What difference does it make if a person is red, yellow and green striped so long as they do their work to the best of their ability and treat others with decency and respect? The problem is so many narrow minded, unthinking people trying to force their preconceptions onto others. I certainly resent when somebody tries to force me into their mold, I can imagine how a bright, strong willed woman would feel about it. We are an evolving species and the ones that refuse to evolve and learn are the ones who will be left behind. If we are to survive as a species we must accept the changes and make them work to everybody\'s benefit. Trying to keep the old roles just because that\'s the way it used to be is a fatal mistake. It will not work!

Terms like feminism are no different from other ignorant terms used to discribe people different from ourselves in the past. The are unreasonable generalisations that do far more harm than good. We are all of the same species and have no need for such terms.

[EXIT63]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_21/b3834001_mz001.htm


Allright men. Repeat after me!

Yes Dear.

Yes Dear.

Yes Dear.

Yes Dear.

Yes Dear.

[franki]

A recent dutch study showed that women start to dominate in school and college, but they don\'t tend to do the same in the corporate world. Too many hurdles there. Good to see there is still a few places where the men are in command. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] j/k

Do people here agree with me that we need to get rid of affirmative action programs?

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[belgareth]

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Do people here agree with me that we need to get rid of all these affirmative action programs?

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Beyond a doubt. All they are is a crutch that weakens the people they are designed to help and a burden on our society. When any group gets preferential treatment, others are rightfully resentful. It ends up causing more troubles than it solves.

I am all for equal opportunity instead. Remove the stigma of gender and race from our thinking.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The boys will catch up.

What\'s going on with the girls FINALLY reflects the reality of the situation: women are in the majority. I love that they overthrew the petty tyrant. Women just a generation ago would have complained amongst themselves but would have thought taking action against the problem highly unladylike. Their behavior today seems to me to be more natural, more genuinely responsive to the circumstances they find themselves in, more unfettered, and that can\'t be anything but good.

Now, some enrichment programs for the boys re reading/writing skills, and we\'ll be golden. If we can get them to sit still for it long enough. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The thing with handwriting and boys seems to start them on a distaste for non-math/science related subjects. I\'m friends with three men who have boys at the age when they\'re learning to write cursive, and they HATE it, won\'t do their homework, are starting to act up ...

How did we manage years ago? They seemed to learn just fine then. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

We don\'t have good role models for the boys as regards literacy at all. \"Smart\" only resides in the arena of calculable data. We\'re sort of an anti-literate society it seems to me.

[franki]

FTR, I heard education nowadays is too feminine. Girls skills are much more rewarded than boys skills, which is one of the reason that boys drop out of the school system.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[upsidedown]

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Do people here agree with me that we need to get rid of affirmative action programs?

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Franki, do they have affirmative actions programs in Germany, or are you talking about the one\'s we have in the U.S.A.?

[franki]

I believe they have them it too, but the USA is famous for it. I was talking about affirmative action in general (everywhere in the world).

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[EXIT63]

Perhaps we should separate the boys from the girls in certain subjects (or completely). Then we could focus more on what works best for each group rather than a one size fits all. Didn\'t they used to do that back in the old days?

You know what I think is another big problem...SUGAR. I\'ve read somewhere that Americans consume many many times more sugar today than they did a hundred years ago. That could be a big contributor to why alot of these kids are bouncing off the walls. Is doping up the kids really an answer?

[upsidedown]

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You know what I think is another big problem...SUGAR.

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When I started substitute teaching I was astounded that they now have vending machines with soft drinks and candy in every school...even the elementary schools. They never did anything like that when I was in grade school. Soft drinks were verboten back then!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

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You know what I think is another big problem...SUGAR.

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When I started substitute teaching I was astounded that they now have vending machines with soft drinks and candy in every school...even the elementary schools. They never did anything like that when I was in grade school. Soft drinks were verboten back then!

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I\'m still not comfortable with the fact that I\'m old enough now to talk like an old person, but here goes the cliche ...Back in MY day ... soft drinks were a treat. I think most of our kids could use better nutrition - but they\'ll pick french fries and Coke over broccoli and water, and we put it out there for them. If I had children I guarantee you I\'d raise hell and get the vending machines and junk food out of the schools.

I don\'t know about school being too feminine, maybe it is. I haven\'t been in a public school since the mid eighties. But ... you always had to sit still and shut your mouth and raise your hand to be called on, and that was much stricter when I was a child than it has been in the past, say, twenty years, and both sexes seemed to do all right. I had the impression that boy\'s schools were strict as well. And there have always been more male drop outs than female.

[tallmacky]

Were Affirmitive action programs needed yes at a time they were needed and rightfully so, as of now no, not really, sure it causes much disdain and the myths and rumors about minorities going to college for free and so on seem to cause more problems then actually helping the situation.

I wonder if they have affirmitive action for whites in South Africa?

[tallmacky]

Belgareth,

Totally blank slates? I think before society as an influence on anyone we act in a way to better ourselves before anyone, if you have noticed that younger children are often very greed, manipulative, \"bad\", and often hurt others including children, some even most adults never fully grow out of this thus resulting in the same behavior of a 6 year old.

Kind of reminds me of \"The Lord of the Flies\"

[belgareth]

TM,

Ok, we are going to have to start with the assumption that we are all animals with a thin layer of civilization overlaying our basic nature. Animals are not born mean or evil or good or gentle, they are taught to be that way. They are a product of their environment. When they are born, their minds are blank slates. All they want is to be fed and cuddled. Those are hard wired needs. There are others that develop over time, such as hunting and terratorial instincts.

To signal the need to be fed and cuddled, they only know how to cry. Since crying illicits the desired response, it teaches them that crying will get what they want. Over time, we learn other methods of signalling our wants. Hopefully, the people around us are teaching us positive ones. A child raised in a negative environment wlll have negative behavoirs. A child raised in a loving and balanced environment will learn to respond in the same way.

Consider what type environment a child is in if they only know anger and violence. Then think about the same child that lives in an environment where smiles and laughter are big part of there environment. If, as they get older, their angry demands get no response or a response that is not what they wanted, but a positive method gets the response they want, what will they learn? It\'s kind of like the idea of hot, a kid must learn that they will get an unpleasant sensation from something that is hot before they understand not to touch things that are hot. By the same token, if a child throws a temper tantrum and the parent utterly ignores it, the child quickly learns that is a waste of time and doesn\'t do it anymore. If the parent gives in to a temper tantrum, many more will follow. I am not sayin not to punish either, well balanced punishment is an important part of the growth of any animal.

All this is assuming a normal child, of course. There are many problems that are relateed to physical defects and deseases that must be dealt with as well.

[Whitehall]

Frankly, what I\'m reading from Red are ad hominem insults (first \"sexist\" then \"reminds me of racist\") followed by desperate evasiveness and a bad case of \"putting words in the mouths of others\" (what\'s the latin word for that?).

Its not a question of equality or career options - men and women are different and have different roles to play in the preservation of our species and of our civiliation. Women have had relative freedom to pursue self-chosen lifestyles for a long time in Western civilizations and I don\'t advocate using the force of law to restrict women from doing anything (other than serving in combat arms and doing the nasty in the streets.)

Feminists, on the other hand, have captured the machinery of government and corporations, and now impose their ideology on men and women in our country using force of law. Education and media are also enlisted to spread the ideology. I criticize the wisdom of feminist ideology and point out the costs that are paid by women and children (and men!) You are purposely silent on those costs, especially when you\'ve paid them yourself.

You rejoin with demands for \"freedom\" while imposing feminism using the police power of the state.

Madam, your emotions on the subject have blinded you to the bald fact that what you are advocating is an Orwellian hypocrisy as in \"Slavery is Freedom.\"

[MOBLEYC57]

\"Animals are not born mean or evil or good or gentle, they are taught to be that way.\"

From one end of the earth to the other!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] It\'s an ugly world isn\'t it? Not! They\'re ugly people on it with their ugly ideas! Changes and their chain reactions! Wheeeeew! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] No, Slavery isn\'t Freedom...Freedom isn\'t Freedom! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[belgareth]

Slavery isn\'t Freedom...Freedom isn\'t Freedom!

The only freedom lies within ourselves. We decide if we are free or not, if others are to determine our paths for us. Each of us is responsible to make our own decisions and to live with the consequences, that is true freedom.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Whitehall. If it\'s easier on you to blame the failure of your marriage on feminism than to look at other possible causes, I won\'t further trouble your peace of mind on the subject.

I have not had maybe the most felicitous of circumstances in my life, but feminism is not to blame for any unhappiness I\'ve experienced and I think the very notion ridiculous. It\'s somewhat surreal that a man as intelligent as yourself would continually spout such nonsense. My marriage failed because I exercised extremely poor judgement in choice of a husband. It\'s no one\'s fault but my own, and it\'s certainly not the fault of feminism.

But hey. Damn feminists are taking over the world, and they make your dick shrink, too. They\'re probably also responsible for global warming, inner city crime, and a host of other ills.

I\'m sure you know best, dear, and I\'m probably wrong on the entire subject. But to my limited perception, you appear unable to be rational on the subject, and that makes me poke you about it.

Apologies.

R

[Whitehall]

Here\'s a link to a very thoughtful and insightful discussion on the subject - much better than anything I could put together. It\'s entitled \"Social Capital.\" Obviously, some of us here can\'t take part in a civil discussion without degenerating into emotional insults.

The author is Francis Fukuyawa, an intellectual super-star and author of \"The End of History.\" He\'s professor at some big name university and used to be in the State Department.

It\'s a long read but it ties together what we understand about biology, evolution, and social sciences to describe \"The Great Disruption.\" I think it\'s one of the best summaries available and comes to much the same conclusions as our original posting above. There are few exceptions one could take, like the minor technical issue of sperm warfare, but it is very comprehensive.

http://www.tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectures/Fukuyama98.pdf

While I saw no mention of global warming, the article makes a good case that feminism is, if not the cause, at least another symptom of a decrease in \"social capital\" in western societies along with child abuse, violent crime, and illegitimacy. Maybe some of you are personally enjoying our era of social decadence, but feminism has clearly come with a cost to society. Advocates of feminism are putting forth an ideology that are contrary to human nature. Oddly, the main beneficiaries are males, who now see a decrease in their responsibilites and obligations. I especially loved the graph charting the rate of \"shotgun\" marriages over time in the US.

[koolking1]

What a topic!!! I just read a psychiatrist\'s theory that it was realized in the 1950s that, for the first time in the history of the world, a unique class of women came to be created (from the 1920s thru the 1950s) : these were the women who had been stay-at-home moms who later become essentially useless to society when the kids were grown and gone. They spent their time mainly buying cosmetics to make themselves look younger (of course, fooling only themselves). I can\'t say that I long for a return of those days!!! I think having American women in the workforce is a good thing - I like being around them myself, I trust them to do a good job and they almost always do. I\'ve also had female bosses and found them to be fair and often smarter than some of my male bosses. I don\'t blame them for the diminished wages, it is generally accepted now that to make it in this world, both partners in a marriage need to work to be financially stable. The \"barons\" set the wages and we have to live with that or organize unions, etc.. I also readily sympathise with the computer folks, programmers,etc., who have to deal with the imported foreign workers. After having spent most of my adult life overseas in the Air Force and having had quite a few foreign workers under my supervision, give me an American. The foreigners always have a quicker way to get things done and they will do it that way if you aren\'t careful in watching them. Of course, their way is also the easy way and they tend to overlook the long-term consequences of their actions (well, why should they care anyways - it\'s not their country that\'s benefiting) and I usually wound up having to fix the problems they created with their short-sightedness. When I go to the supermarket and I see these giant fresh-water shrimps that sell for $16.95 a pound, I\'ll mention to the sales clerk that these shrimp have been grown in Sri Lanka and are really only worth about $5.00 a pound because the poor workers who have toiled to grow these things are only being paid .13 cents a day, I get looks from the clerk like I\'m off my rocker. Why, well, because the fish monger didn\'t get a good education and doesn\'t understand the reality of the matter. It bothers me to no end to realize that so many people here in the USA can\'t spell, can\'t write coherently, and usually don\'t read much because it isn\'t easy for them - the things they miss in life - yikes!!! I realize I\'m rambling on here but I just had to get my grudges published. American men and women do try harder and we\'ve let a lot of them down with poor educations, it\'s too bad really. Instead of bashing each other, we should love each other and try to make ALL of our American lives better, including the immigrants who come here to be Americans and not just to make a quick buck that buys them a better life back home.

[koolking1]

Oh... and for those of you that think size does matter, I\'ve come up with the ultimate measuring tool, it measures both depth and width, I call it my dick. Anybody need it???

[belgareth]

Koolking:

How refreshing, an open-minded and progressive outlook. Thank you for your posting. It’s always amazing the spurious arguments people will make to support their biases or a desired outcome. Calling somebody a great thinker has always been a signal to me that we would be getting into another of these ‘Let’s go back to the way things were’ arguments. They seem utterly unable to grasp the concept that you cannot put the chick back in the shell after the egg has hatched. It’s time to move on and grow. We, as both a species and a society, are evolving and these narrow minded attempts to halt our evolution are nothing short of blatant escapism. They also completely disregard the tremendous contributions the ‘other side’ has made to the general welfare and knowledge.

Just for the record, Clinton, Ford, Kennedy, Hitler, Brezhnev, Freud and Mussolini were all considered to be great thinkers too. It would be a lot of fun to watch somebody try to follow all of them at once.

Whitehall:

The article uses the argument of human nature, which is one of the most fallacious arguments going, to support their position. Human nature began to decline as a factor in our affairs not long after we learned to harness fire and make crude stone tools. Prior to that, it was human nature to forage for food as a family/tribal unit with each individual doing a share of the gathering. With the ability to use tools, mankind changed, evolved into a hunter where, for a while, strength did matter. As a result, the male became dominant. But that was a temporary arrangement, outside the natural order of our species and fairly short lived in evolutionary terms. If you want to argue human nature, should we decriminalize rape? It is a perfectly natural, male dominated act.

What does decadence have to do with the role of man and women? After reading the article and considering other factors, I believe there is no relationship. A good example was the Roman Empire. Women were second class citizens and relegated to womanly tasks such as housekeeping, mothering and prostitution. They had no voting rights or say in their society, yet their society was truly decadent and it did fall! Another good question is why the handful of cultures that raise children in a group, by the whole village, are some of the most peaceful and well adjusted while the male dominated societies, such as our own as well as the Arabic cultures are violent, aggressive and domineering? Look at the input our children receive from the world around them: We’re bigger and stronger and have better weapons, therefore we are right! Because we are stronger, we are going to tell you how to live and rule. Can you honestly say that our government, which is becoming daily more oppressive, is a good government? You probably will say it because I believe you support that oppression, it’s inherent in your statements about controlling others’ behavior. My belief is that any person who desires to rule others should be kept out of all forms of government. They are obviously unstable due to their need to dominate others and are a menace to a well run society.

Why did the Roman Empire fall? Or, better yet, why is our society failing? Your article was a good example of the failing in our society. Escapism: it isn’t my fault, blame that group over there. You can justify any action with argument, so long as you ignore any facts that don’t fit. That is exactly what the article does. It skips over a million years of human evolution to pick out only the bits and pieces that justify the writer’s position. The rest is regarded as irrelevancy. Another failing in our society is the desire and support for instant gratification. Fulfilling the desire for instant gratification only teaches us that we can have whatever we want, whenever we want with no concern for repercussions. That results in the decadence you speak of.

Instead of trying to tell others how to live and passing the buck, try taking on some of the responsibility. You cannot take women out of the workforce, nor can you force them back into a subservient role. You may as well stop wasting time and energy trying. You will help yourself and society as a whole by helping them to grow and develop as humans beings. Our strictly male dominated rule has resulted in many great accomplishments, many of them a result of women, but at least as many atrocities, as well. Try equality for a change and stop trying to dominate and force others to your beliefs. Try taking responsibility for making this world a better place for everybody. Any forcibly ruled society is only good for those who rule it, the rest suffer the indignities of the ruler’s oppression. Teach yourself, then teach others around you and teach your children to be self-sufficient, responsible adults instead of subservient second class citizens subject to the ruling class’s whims.

As a final comment, I do not support feminism or affirmative action, decadence or materialism. They are all losing positions. I support treating every person equally and giving each one an equal chance. Your vision of a society does none of that. Yours is a vision of control, dominance and aggression that only serves the stronger without regard for the individual.