A Personal Peace Practicum

[Elana]

Breaking News...
It appears that huge vats of chemical weapons have been discovered.

[BassMan]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Breaking News...
It appears that huge vats of chemical weapons have been discovered.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">Do you have a link to the article? I\'m not finding it on the web networks.

[Elana]

It\'s just coming out right now on Fox and CNN. The pentagon will not confirm until the tests are completed.

[Elana]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83449,00.html

[BassMan]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83449,00.html

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">Thanks!

[EXIT63]

Fox news is just a shill for braindead Republicans. And besides, the CIA is planting the stuff to justify the war for oil and American imperialism. And just because Al queda has a base in Iraq doesn\'t mean they\'re connected to 911. Remember, Wolfowitz and Perle are both Jews and everyone knows the Israeli lobby is running things in Washington. I sure do hate America. But don\'t say I\'m not patriotic.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/895392.asp?0bl=-0

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/salman_pak.htm

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Fox news is just a shill for braindead Republicans. And besides, the CIA is planting the stuff to justify the war for oil and American imperialism. And just because Al queda has a base in Iraq doesn\'t mean they\'re connected to 911. Remember, Wolfowitz and Perle are both Jews and everyone knows the Israeli lobby is running things in Washington. I sure do hate America. But don\'t say I\'m not patriotic.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/895392.asp?0bl=-0

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/salman_pak.htm

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Them damn Jews [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[MadDoctor]

Per later reports, the \"huge vats\" appear to be one 20-gallon barrel, one 50-gallon barrel, and around a dozen or so small rockets (5\" diameter, 15 mile range, 40-year old design, the trucks that carried them kept 40 ready to fire at a time) with chemical warheads.

To put this in perspective, this amounts to 1/40 of 1% of the chemical weapons that Iraq had at the time of the first Gulf War. Or to look at it another way, Germany fired 110,000 chemical rounds during 2 days of the battle of Verdun: the amount found so far in Iraq would have lasted them under one minute.

Three years ago, the Pentagon said that it had somehow misplaced 1,300 billion dollars. If they can do that, I can easily understand how the Iraqi military could have misplaced 1/40 of 1% of its chemical weapons.

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Per later reports, the \"huge vats\" appear to be one 20-gallon barrel, one 50-gallon barrel, and around a dozen or so small rockets (5\" diameter, 15 mile range, 40-year old design, the trucks that carried them kept 40 ready to fire at a time) with chemical warheads.

To put this in perspective, this amounts to 1/40 of 1% of the chemical weapons that Iraq had at the time of the first Gulf War. Or to look at it another way, Germany fired 110,000 chemical rounds during 2 days of the battle of Verdun: the amount found so far in Iraq would have lasted them under one minute.

Three years ago, the Pentagon said that it had somehow misplaced 1,300 billion dollars. If they can do that, I can easily understand how the Iraqi military could have misplaced 1/40 of 1% of its chemical weapons.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Phew...I am so relieved [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[hoodas]

This will be yet another report that will be blown out of proportion by the media and then they will show results of some new poll showing that its ok to go to war.

[Elana]

We shall see. If it turns out that there were only enough chemical\'s to kill a few thousand people, does that mean that we shouldn\'t be making a big deal about it? We aren\'t done turning over stones.

[hoodas]

Well in the grand scheme of things, I would say we shouldn\'t make a big deal about it. I was just implying that the media blows everything out of proportion and then puts some stats to along with it as if to justify the blowing out of proportion.

[MadDoctor]

&gt; Well in the grand scheme of things, I would say we shouldn\'t make a big deal about it.

Agreed. In WWI, for example, a conservative estimate of the amount of chemical weapons used by the Germans against the French is around half a million rounds, each containing several pounds of agent. If one assumes 5 pounds per shell as a reasonable average, that means that it took over 300 pounds of chemical agent for each French soldier killed (they had 8,000 gas deaths total in WWI). If the Iraqis did about as well as the Germans, the amount found would have killed 1-2 people.

[franki]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If one assumes 5 pounds per shell as a reasonable average, that means that it took over 300 pounds of chemical agent for each French soldier killed (they had 8,000 gas deaths total in WWI). If the Iraqis did about as well as the Germans, the amount found would have killed 2 people.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Don\'t forget that about 5000 Kurds got killed in chemical attacks by Saddam and \"chemical Ali\" (that is the guy who was killed in Basrah a few days ago).

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[hoodas]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Don\'t forget that about 8000 Kurds got killed in chemical attacks from Saddam and \"chemical Ali\" (that is the guy that got killed in Basrah).

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I\'m not sure that the chemicals used on the kurds should be accounted for here. I mean this war is (supposedly) because Saddam supposedly still has weapons of mass destruction not necessarilty for actions that he has taken in the past since I think the world would agree on the actions he has taken in the past.

[franki]

At least those attacks prove that none of these weapons should be in the hands of Saddam.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
At least those attacks prove that none of these weapons should be in the hands of Saddam.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Agreed!

[hoodas]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
At least those attacks prove that none of these weapons should be in the hands of Saddam.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Absolutely, can\'t disagree there. It does not necessarily justify the steps being taken currently (in my opinion), but nevertheless you are correct in your observation.

[upsidedown]

Absolutely Franki.

Imagine if Saddam let terrorists have the gas? What would happen if they let it loose in a confined public area in this country instead of out on an open outdoor field?

[Whitehall]

I suspect that we will not find huge caches of chemical and biological weapons nor the scientific and engineering cadres that produced them. We should find oneseys and twoseys but not the bulk.

I\'ll bet they were all taken to Syria or sold on the black market.

The reasoning is that Saddam and his inner circle were told, rightly, that the chem/bio armaments would not make much military difference against the American and British armies as both have adequate NBC protective equipment and training.

Our big fear has not been his use of chem/bio on the battlefield but its use against civilian target with no protection.

[MadDoctor]

Naturally the kill rate is higher when used against unarmed civilians who have no protective equipment! They got to \"cropdust\" the town with helicopters, something no equipped soldier would be hurt by, and something no equipped soldier would tolerate.

[Andy]

Let me get this right ...

Saddam and the Kurds have been actually in war, right ?

I just can\'t understand why throwing gas at people is worse than throwing a-bombs, napalm, or daisy cutters on people.

[MadDoctor]

\"Smoking gun\" WMD site in Iraq turns out to contain pesticide:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&amp;u=/afp/20030407/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_wmd_030407175243

[**DONOTDELETE**]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Our government&amp;#8217;s excuse for invading Iraq is the link to Al Queada. Please tell me what that link is

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Well dont you remember you ask for link i gave you one! You were the one who said that was the reason for invading Iraq. Do you even know what your talking about before you type or shouldn\'t you know what question you asked or do you really want to know the truth. Are you just asking questions trying to find the negative or what. You asked for it you got the link What does being enlisted have to do with dancing and singing , i know lots of people in the milatary. From what i have observed just because you are in the milatary doesn\'t make you less likely to dance and sing. The links are there man even al queda operatives are fighting with suddams paramilatary groups. All i can say is open your eyes man. I can\'t believe people are dumb enough to still say this is about war.

[MadDoctor]

Looks like we\'re influencing other countries military policies, India and Pakistan (both nuclear powers) now claim a right to attack at will.

\'India has right to pre-emptive strike\'
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2003/04/07/stories/2003040704741200.htm

`India a fit case for pre-emptive strikes\'
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/stories/2003040804981100.htm

[Andy]

This is no surprise. In fact I\'ve been waiting for something like this, but my thoughts went more into the direction of north korea. Do you have a clue what happends to the States in case they are using the methods of the US-government ? They aren\'t strong enough to start an open war like the States did in Iraq now, they will have to do one hard blow, because they know there won\'t be the opportunity for a second. I fear they are mad enough to do it, in fact north korea is a far more realistic threat to the US than Iraq has ever been. I guess they are just lucky because they aren\'t having so many natural resources. I really hope things like this will never happen, not only because we are allies, but friends. We\'ve been sharing the same ideas and values for decades, though some people tend to forget or overlook this too easily. Please, please open your eyes and educate yourself and build up your own! opinion. I am actually watching a lot of different media, almost everything is propagandistic, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
At least we should stop fighting our own little wars. There are much bigger problems to solve. there is no place for fighting around in discussions. We should talk, because it\'s important. But everyone of us is polarized by our favorite media. I\'ve seen that all around the world, USA, Australia, Germany, Italy, France, the brittish empire, the arab countries, everyone is starting to hype their own version as the ultimate one. Damn, we have to start to think global. Earth is a really small place in fact and we have to learn to live together and not against each other. I am for sure none of these new age guys, but I feel so sorry for the world right now. We are constantly killing our brothers and sisters. In fact we are a huge family but people are just to blind to recognize it. Every war is about $\'s and $\'s only. Face it. It doesn\'t matter which side is the \"good\", which side is the \"bad\" one, because it\'s a pure subjective view of things. The loosers are always the citizens of the world. OMG, I sound like a new age hippie, but I just had to say what I had to say.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'m glad to hear it, Andy. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[EXIT63]

Bruce, I think it\'s time to change the name of this forum from Open Discussion to Humor. Reading these posts makes me LMAO!!!!!

[Andy]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
Bruce, I think it\'s time to change the name of this forum from Open Discussion to Humor. Reading these posts makes me LMAO!!!!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Do you think this is funny in any way? You have to be a really sick person if you are able to find the faintest hint of humor or entertainment in this discussion.

[belgareth]

War is nothing more than armed robbery writ large.

Tom Clancey

Andy:

You are so right.