A Personal Peace Practicum

[Whitehall]

Here\'s one idea of a peace practicum for war protestors. Note that I do NOT personally endorse this method.

Going around about protestors is this little step by step \"how to\":

With all of this talk of impending war, many of us will encounter \"Peace Activists\" who will try and convince us that we must refrain from retaliating. These activists may be alone or in a gathering.....most of us don\'t know how to react to them. When you come upon one of these people, or one of their rallies, here are the proper rules of etiquette:

1. Listen politely while this person explains their views. Strike up a conversation if necessary and look
very interested in their ideas. They will tell you how revenge is immoral, and that by attacking the
people, we will only bring on more violence. They will probably use many arguments, ranging from
political to religious to humanitarian.

2. Then hit them in the nose. Knock them to the ground.

3. When the person gets up off of the ground, they will be very angry and they may try to hit you, so be careful.

4. Very quickly and calmly remind the person that violence only brings about more violence and remind
them of their stand on this matter. Tell them if they are really committed to a nonviolent approach to
undeserved attacks, they will turn the other cheek and negotiate a solution. Tell them they must lead by example, if they really believe what they are saying.

5. Most of them will think for a moment and then agree that you are correct.

6. As soon as they do that, hit them again. Only this time hit them much harder. Square in the nose.

7. Repeat steps 2-5 until the desired results are obtained and the idiot realizes how stupid an argument he/she is making.

8. There is no difference in an individual attacking an unsuspecting victim or a group of terrorists
attacking a nation of people. It is unacceptable and must be dealt with. Perhaps at a high cost. We owe
our military a huge debt for what they are about to do for us and our children. We must support them and
our leaders at times like these.

[Andy]

8. There is no difference in an individual attacking an unsuspecting victim or a group of terrorists
attacking a nation of people. It is unacceptable and must be dealt with. Perhaps at a high cost.

You are so right ... but where\'s the link to the actual war ?

[MadDoctor]

> You are so right ... but where\'s the link to the actual war ?

Well, one could always accost people that might have secret plans to protest something and attack them preemptively... ?

[Watcher]

Heres the link
Saddam huinseen and his cronies do the following
Use chemical and biological weapons on kurds in 1989 and in IRAN previously. Supplied by the USA, FRANCE and RUSSIA and GERMANY. Saying enough.
Ok now he attacks IRAN, KUWAIT, fires scuds at saudi arabia and isreal. Its a one state socialists state with several torture etc. Enough reason to end his regime.
What whitehall is saying is completley a way to get through to the war protestors, try it with a gun for more effect.
Now tell me we should leave him in power. A quick hand over of power to the UN would be more transparent and an open slaver to all global corparations for re-construction work within IRAQ instead of US republicaian linked to vice president oil comapnies and their subsidaries. This wont happen and this rort will continue, but for the greater good of a democratic IRAQ i say this might just be OK.

[Andy]

Don\'t you feel ashamed talking about attacking your own people because they have a different sight of things ? What you are actually talking about is a direct attack on somebody.

I\'d have to shoot you, your family and your neighbors because you might hit me in the future to give you a Personal War Practicum.

Have YOU seen war ? .. no ? .. I have .. Have YOU seen falling soldiers right next to you ? .. no ? .. I have ... Have YOU seen friends you\'ve been in the Army with for years teared apart by AP-mines ? .. no ? .. I have.
Pussies like you don\'t know what war means .. you have NO IDEA. There\'s nothing glorious, nothing clean. There are dying more civillians than shown in your little nice clean TV shows that have done nothing but slipped out of a pussy from the wrong side. Please stop talking bullshit till you\'ve been down in iraq or somewhere else where bullets are flying a few inches away from your head.

I\'d like to take everybody that thinks war is something good in any way down there for just a week.

[edit]
I\'d go down there again if I had too, under german or us-american command again, but I\'d never attack somebody that thinks war is a bad thing, because it is dammit.

[franki]

from Whitehall:
<< Note that I do NOT personally endorse this method. >>

[Lucky]

Andy,
I haven\'t been to Iraq and know very little (nothing) about it. I didn\'t want the US to go to war, but certainly support our troops now that they are there.

Since you say you\'ve been there (and I\'m curious as to why you were there), please give us your opinions on the following:

- How did the Iraqi people feel about this *liberation* effort? How great a role does \"fear of Saddam\" play in the average Iraqi\'s life?
- Is their land (oil wells) privately owned?
- Were the Iraqi people economically compromised before the 1981 war?
- How much of this is about Israel?
- Do the Iraqis equate the US preemption in Iraq to the terrorist activity in the US? Do you? Should we?
- Bottom line... why are we over there, what\'s the real deal?

Thanks.

[Elana]

Andy....you need to relax.

[Lucky]

Has Andy been on vacation since I came onboard? I don\'t know him.

[Whitehall]

This war started 9/11/01. If you think that the choice is war or not, you\'re not thinking straight. The Department of Homeland Security will neither win it nor put an end to the threats of future attacks. We can not leave decisions as to war and peace to the warriors.

The point of the practicum is that no matter how bad war is (it\'s the most evil part of our nature, I agree), sometimes we have no choice. The war is on and I will not apologize for preferring it be faught in Baghdad rather than Brooklyn or Burbank. The question is not \"war or no war,\" but rather where and when do we fight to protect ourselves.

If you no longer wish to defend us and your term of enlistment is up, you may leave the messy work to someone with more courage, strength, and patriotism. You have our thanks for your prior service.

Thankfully, we have volunteers who will do what needs to be done.

\"If war be the remedy of my enemy\'s choosing, I say, give it to them.\" Wm. T. Sherman

[Andy]

Ok ... I calmed down already ... didn\'t mean to be attack somebody here but I just can\'t hear this patriotic crap anymore. Do you know that many soldiers would like to go on patriot shooting before heading for their mission on the battlefield ? Nobody hates war more than soldiers do, but that\'s their job. They are fighting for something they believe, may it be peace, freedom or even just loyality.

I\'d like to talk about the Iraq, but I can\'t. I haven\'t been there with desert storm and I haven\'t been there in the actual war, but I\'ve seen many battlefields some official \"i.e. former jugoslavia\" and some not so official. I just can\'t talk much more about this topic.


@Whitehall

If you got the expression that I actually barked at you I am sorry. English is not my native language and I am lacking of training, since I haven\'t really spoken or written it some years (except here and a few letters to friends in the states).

Ok ... now start over again :

Dear Whitehall [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

The war in Iraq has nothing to do with the 9/11 ... There is no link between Saddam and Bin \"loadmyasswithdynamite\" Laden. Saddam could have been disarmed without force because the whole Iraq was laying down spreading all legs. The local economy was destroyed before this war and they were still building new houses that have been destroyed.
The people are still suffering ... and that after so many years. Saddam himself could have been easily taken out by snipers, again without making the civilists down there suffer. The CIA came close enough to uncover secret plans and biological weaponry .. but not close enough to take Saddam out? Moslems aren\'t bad people you know ... it\'s just like everywhere in the world, as soon as a smart, greedy and powerthirsty man shows up things get messed up. Because the education level is so low down there much more follow this stupid bullshit than in the western world, but it\'s still not the majority, most are just howling with the wolves not to get eaten by them. But the situation changed. There was a lot of hope among the civilian citizens that the UN would help to ease their pain. But now they (USA and Britain) are causing them to suffer. The people are actually fightin for their homes. Let me give you an example :

You are living in a nice quiet quarter of a little town, your leader is a dictator. You can\'t do anything against his politics, you can only hope they let you be in peace. Your country is still destroyed from a former war and it\'s almost impossible to build up things because of an embargo. There are not enough resources to build up things, the infrastructure is still down. Now you hear that your dictator is about to be disarmed soon and everything works quite fine. Inspectors came into your country and you heared that they started to destroy \"illegal\" weaponry. Everything was fine and things developed well. Suddenly the inspectors are beeing extracted from your country and enemy troops are landing ... out of sudden .. not beeing threated or attacked in any way. You can\'t understand what\'s going on, but you still hope to be freed, though you are full of neverending fear. Next thing you hear is, that an enhanced daisy cutter wiped out your complete family on the other side of town, along with thousands of civilian people and buildings within a 600 meter radius you just started to build up with your sweat and dirt, just because your dictator placed troops somewhere in that area.

This might happen every day since the use of the daisy cutter has been authorized. You are facing two foes now ... your dictator .. and reckless enemy troops that are destroying everything in sight that might be a good target. You just have no choice but fighting with the somebody who\'s actually trying to protect your land, no matter what his motives might be. You are saying goodbye to your wife while taking the belt of explosives ......

I\'d defend you and everyone that needs to be defended in any case. Because I believe our concept of a free democratic world order. But I fear that\'s not what\'s behind the war this time. I would like to be wrong in the end, I never wished to have the false impression than this time, but I fear this won\'t happen.

[Andy]

Ok ... I calmed down already ... didn\'t mean to be attack somebody here but I just can\'t hear this patriotic crap anymore. Do you know that many soldiers would like to go on patriot shooting before heading for their mission on the battlefield ? Nobody hates war more than soldiers do, but that\'s their job. They are fighting for something they believe, may it be peace, freedom or even just loyality.

I\'d like to talk about the Iraq, but I can\'t. I haven\'t been there with desert storm and I haven\'t been there in the actual war, but I\'ve seen many battlefields some official \"i.e. former jugoslavia\" and some not so official. I just can\'t talk much more about this topic.


@Whitehall

If you got the expression that I actually barked at you I am sorry. English is not my native language and I am lacking of training, since I haven\'t really spoken or written it some years (except here and a few letters to friends in the states).

Ok ... now start over again :

Dear Whitehall [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

The war in Iraq has nothing to do with the 9/11 ... There is no link between Saddam and Bin \"loadmyasswithdynamite\" Laden. Saddam could have been disarmed without force because the whole Iraq was laying down spreading all legs. The local economy was destroyed before this war and they were still building new houses that have been destroyed.
The people are still suffering ... and that after so many years. Saddam himself could have been easily taken out by snipers, again without making the civilists down there suffer. The CIA came close enough to uncover secret plans and biological weaponry .. but not close enough to take Saddam out? Moslems aren\'t bad people you know ... it\'s just like everywhere in the world, as soon as a smart, greedy and powerthirsty man shows up things get messed up. Because the education level is so low down there much more follow this stupid bullshit than in the western world, but it\'s still not the majority, most are just howling with the wolves not to get eaten by them. But the situation changed. There was a lot of hope among the civilian citizens that the UN would help to ease their pain. But now they (USA and Britain) are causing them to suffer. The people are actually fightin for their homes. Let me give you an example :

You are living in a nice quiet quarter of a little town, your leader is a dictator. You can\'t do anything against his politics, you can only hope they let you be in peace. Your country is still destroyed from a former war and it\'s almost impossible to build up things because of an embargo. There are not enough resources to build up things, the infrastructure is still down. Now you hear that your dictator is about to be disarmed soon and everything works quite fine. Inspectors came into your country and you heared that they started to destroy \"illegal\" weaponry. Everything was fine and things developed well. Suddenly the inspectors are beeing extracted from your country and enemy troops are landing ... out of sudden .. not beeing threated or attacked in any way. You can\'t understand what\'s going on, but you still hope to be freed, though you are full of neverending fear. Next thing you hear is, that an enhanced daisy cutter wiped out your complete family on the other side of town, along with thousands of civilian people and buildings within a 600 meter radius you just started to build up with your sweat and dirt, just because your dictator placed troops somewhere in that area.

This might happen every day since the use of the daisy cutter has been authorized. You are facing two foes now ... your dictator .. and reckless enemy troops that are destroying everything in sight that might be a good target. You just have no choice but fighting with the somebody who\'s actually trying to protect your land, no matter what his motives might be. You are saying goodbye to your wife while taking the belt of explosives ......

I\'d defend you and everyone that needs to be defended in any case. Because I believe our concept of a free democratic world order. But I fear that\'s not what\'s behind the war this time. I would like to be wrong in the end, I never wished to have the false impression than this time, but I fear this won\'t happen.

It\'s a bit different here, once a soldier, always a soldier. Doesn\'t matter whether you are in duty or not, you might be always reactivated in the defence case.

Ah I just found an update bug that wasn\'t there in the last version. Sorry guys, I am out of this war discussion now, because it\'s triggering too many memories and feelings.

[Whitehall]

Andy,

Where are you from and what battles did you participate in?

I understand that this can be a very emotional topic for many people. It\'s OK.

Many of us here in the US do think that 9/11 and Iraq are connected. OBL initiated and carried out the specific act and maybe Saddam was not part of the deal up front. However, the problem is that Saddam would now have (had?) the capacity to use OBL and the like as delivery methods and OBL had the ability to get better tools and succor from Saddam. Together, they poise a huge threat to us.

The Mideast is a huge mess. The trends are that it will get worst. We have to break these trends and push them in directions that offer less threat to us and the West. Their population is exploding, their educations are becoming more fundamentalist and less real \"education\", their politics becoming more radical, and their vision less realistic.

The US government has had to take a gamble with history. We all hope it pays off for everyone.

[MadDoctor]

Your post reminded me of some of the veterans I\'ve known. John, who I knew as a fellow martial artist, had been paratrooper in Vietnam. The guy was as tough as nails, but one day he told me that he had recurring nightmares. He had driven most of the images from his mind, but one he could not shake. His group had been ordered to surround a village while some went in and lit all of the houses on fire. His job was outside, to shoot anyone who fled from the burning huts. He followed his orders, and gunned down a beautiful young woman who was so pregnant that she could barely run. He remembered her face as she lay dying, how she seemed to be pleading \"Why?\" with her eyes, and how he had no answer, so emptied the clip of his M16 into her body. Having told me this, John spent the next few minutes sobbing into his hands. He had never talked much about Vietnam with me before, and he never brought it up again.

Today also happens to be the 35th anniversary of the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr., as well as the 36th anniversary of the speech he gave at Riverside Church ( http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publications/speeches/Beyond_Vietnam.pdf ).

Part of that speech strikes me as particularly apropos decades later.

\"This is the message of the great Buddhist leaders of Vietnam. Recently one of them wrote these words, and I quote:

\'Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the hearts of the Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the image of revolution, freedom, and democracy, but the image of violence and militarism.\'\"

Food for thought.

[belgareth]

Whitehall,

First I’d like to say that I resent your implication that those who oppose this war are not as patriotic as those that do. Your accusations are a direct attack on their obligation to voice their opinion regarding our government’s actions.

Many of us who oppose this attack on Iraq are at least as patriotic as you and regard this war as naked aggression using disingenuous excuses for what appears to be an attempt to control another country’s natural resources. In your arguments for this war, you use a lot of supposition that is not supported by any concrete facts linking OSB and Saddam Hussien.

Using the military for apparently comercial gain rather than against a direct attack, at the expense of an already suffering economy, is about as unpatriotic as one can get. The loss of a single life for any other purpose than self-defense is a crime! If and until somebody presents solid evidence that Iraq was actually preparing to provide weapons of mass destruction to our enemies to use against us, there is no excuse for our military to be in Iraq. Rather, I feel we should be concentrating on hunting down and executing every last member of Al Queda, they are the ones who attacked us!

It is easy to call me a coward or unpatriotic. You can spend all day jumping to unsupported conclusions and claiming I am not thinking straight if you like. But show us one single piece of hard evidence to support the link that justifies this war. So far, neither you nor the government has done that. For that reason, many very intelligent, patriotic people are opposed to this war.

[proteus]

Well said Andy, MadDoctor and Belgareth. I have a brother in the military (infantry) who\'s on standby to go to the Persian Gulf. Many of his friends in the 101st Airborne Division are already in Iraq.

We talk with him about this war and he just sees this as his job, something he signed up for and he will go if he is ordered there. He doesn\'t like discussing whether the war is justified or not and often says if he doesn\'t go if called, it just means perhaps one of his buddies or fellow soldiers will go in his place. So they serve and because of this I support the troops and feel that by opposing this unjust war of aggression that I am supporting these troops who should not be misused in this way.

As for these gungho war types who have never served/fought in any combat situation and question the patriotism of those who oppose this war - they make me sick. I hope you\'re willing to volunteer your sons,daughters, brothers or sisters to this war and put some actual deeds behind this cheap armchair bravado.

[Whitehall]

Guys,

Get a grip on you emotions and read my words. I did NOT say that anyone who opposed the war was unpatriotic although some protesters clearly are that. I did not question your patriotism - JUST YOUR JUDGMENT.

As to our soldiers, if they are not primarily motivated by patriotism, we should not let them serve. Otherwise, we will develop a mercenary caste not dedicated to the principles of American gvernment and that would only lead to trouble. Read your history of the Praetorian guard. We have an all-volunteer military - they are bound, while under oath and arms in the US military, to follow all lawful orders of the Commander-in-Chief, ie the president. If you can\'t do that at all times, don\'t join. Legitimate civilian authority, the president and the Congress, have authorized this war.

As to my right and obligation to formulate and advocate an opinion on military matters, I\'ll remind you that I am a citizen of the US of A and therefore have the responsibility to be informed on foreign affairs, of which war is but one facet. While I\'ve rubbed shoulders with the military all my life, the core of my position are my views on the broader issue of America\'s position and conduct in the world. That view has to be formulated by civilians. If the people who represent me in the federal government tell our military to go to war, they had better damn well do it. If they don\'t like it then they can decide to not re-up. I will note that 70% of the American public supports this war so I\'m not alone. As some wise man said, war is too important to be left to the generals - or to the privates.

I will note that my eldest son is again considering enlisting in the Army, specifically the 82th Airborne. He\'s got a BA in history from Berkeley, BTW. This is a big decision for him. I\'m not telling him to sign up but I do tell him that the profession of arms is an honorable one and that I would be proud if he served. Since this path would have him go to OCS and eventually put him in charge of a platoon of combat infantrymen, I caution him that he should only sign up if he understands that the responsibility for those men would be in his hands and that he must dedicate himself to the highest achievement he can reach. Also, he must understand that that his courage would be tested in battle and that he could die. Like the parents of the Roman Republic, I also expect him to return either carrying his shield or being carried on it.

If all this still leaves you sick, Proteus, gag on it.

[franki]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I will note that 70% of the American public supports this war so I\'m not alone.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

At this point I start to feel uncomfortable, uncomfortable about the media especially. I mean, take a look at the thread Bivonic started about Al-Qaeda. If a lot of people are ill-informed (you have said something about \"people not taking the time to inform themselves\" well before this), how can they make a fair judgement?

Everyone has to trust governments, media, the UN etc to make a picture of what is going on in Iraq and the rest of the world, because we can\'t find out about it on ourselves. This gives the media and also politicians a hell of a lot of responsibility and I hope they are taking that responsability seriously, regardless of whether they are pro-war or anti-war.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[MadDoctor]

In a recent poll, Americans were asked how many Iraqis there were among the 9/11 hijackers. Only 17% knew that the correct answer was zero. Scary, eh?

-----

\"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.\"

-- Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Guys,

Get a grip on you emotions and read my words. I did NOT say that anyone who opposed the war was unpatriotic although some protesters clearly are that. I did not question your patriotism - JUST YOUR JUDGMENT.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Whitehall,

That\'s quite alright, I certainly have been questioning your judgement on this issue. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

My statements, although reflecting my obvious irritation, were not emotion based. I asked for the proof, the smoking gun, the direct connection between Bagdad and OSB. Nobody has provided that! There are lots of ifs and maybes and possible connections but they are very short of facts. While I agree that Saddam Hussien is a viscous criminal and needs to be removed, I do not agree that it is our right or responsibility to do so. We are basically saying \'Ok, you guys won\'t play our way? Well were the biggest bully on the block and we are going to force you too play our way.\' This is being done at the expense of millions of people who are suffering from a dead economy in this country. Our priorities are wrong! We are not and should not be the world\'s police force. Nor should we force our ideals down another country\'s throat. If we believe in freedom of choice, it must be for everybody, not just here at home.

As for the 70% who supposedly support the war, that is a questionable figure and I think you know that. Regardless of that, I am a little surprised that you, of all people, are all that concerned with what the majority thinks. You have struck me in the past as an individualistic thinker. My opinions are certainly not directed by the majority.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If you were irritated than your post had to reflect that and the other emotions that occur from being irritated by someone.

As far as removing Saddam goes if we do not do it no one else will. The apparent consequences that would occur from Saddam being in power were increasing; the United States had to do something before Saddam\'s reingn of terror spread. The United States is ond of the few countries who actually are trying to help the sick, poor people around the world and we supply over 50% of the money to the United Nations. Have you ever thought about that, or do you only see what you want to see because of your own hatred toward something or someone else. A person who looks at the facts from both sides of the table realizes that America is trying to help people around the world reap the benifits of freedom. Its easy for someone whos free to run his mouth off. Don\'t you realize the Iraqis do not have that freedom. Saddam runs a dictorship he has modeled after Stalin and Hitler. Can you imagine what would have occured if the Allied Nations had no courage, no bravery, no ball. Its sometimes good to be idealist, although in the long run to surive, for the world to flourish we must be realist about our ideals. France hasn\'t progressed out of the ages of romanticism. Thats why our opinions differ with them

[Gerund]

*********************
belgareth:

As for the 70% who supposedly support the war, that is a questionable figure and I think you know that.
*********************

That\'s absolutely right. It\'s now up to 80%, as CNN reported about 2:00 p.m. this afternoon. (The report also thought it sufficiently noteworthy to mention that even 2 out of 3 liberals now support the war.)

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


That\'s absolutely right. It\'s now up to 80%, as CNN reported about 2:00 p.m. this afternoon. (The report also thought it sufficiently noteworthy to mention that even 2 out of 3 liberals now support the war.)


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I heard that today too

[MadDoctor]

Wow, only another 10 points, and it will match the percentage by which the German voters approved Hitler\'s position of Fuehrer and Reich Chancellor in 1934. As it is, 80% is the exact same rating that Bush Sr.\'s 1991 war got, but that still wasn\'t enough to get him reelected.

The average American is both fickle and uninformed. In a few months, everything will be different. In the next election, most of them won\'t go to the polls, and most of those who do won\'t vote the way they would today.

In short, who cares?

[Lucky]

THE THINGS WE DO FOR PEACE....
read below, anything sound familiar?

---------------------------------------------------------
Proclamation by Adolf Hitler, Chancellor of the Reich, to the German Army, September 1,1939.

The Polish State has refused the peaceful settlement of relations which I desired, and has appealed to arms. Germans in Poland are persecuted with bloody terror and driven from their houses. A series of violations of the frontier, intolerable to a great Power, prove that Poland is no longer willing to respect the frontier of the Reich.

In order to put an end to this lunacy, I have no other choice than to meet force with force from now on. The German Army will fight the battle for the honour and the vital rights of reborn Germany with hard determination. I expect that every soldier, mindful of the great traditions of eternal German soldiery, will ever remain conscious that he is a representative of the National-Socialist Greater Germany. Long live our people and our Reich!

[belgareth]

Natedog:

Of course my irritation shows. I am still asking reasonable and logical questions and not getting answers. Our government’s excuse for invading Iraq is the link to Al Queada. Please tell me what that link is. Not guesses and suppositions, facts! Please define the direct threat to the US, other than their control of their natural resources which they have every right to control, just as we do ours. For the record, I sat on the fence about support for this war for a long time but the contradictions bother me more every day. We are still not the world’s police and we still have millions suffering in our own country that we are not taking care of while we concern ourselves with other countries. Doesn’t charity begin at home? How do you feel about the jobless in this country? The homeless and hungry right here at home? Do you go out and bust your own budget to feed and shelter them while leaving your own without a roof over their heads? If not, why should the US do so?

Even if your statement is valid, why Hussien and not one of the many other despots? Is he the only mass murderer out there or the worst? Or is there some other factor we should know about?

Gerund:

Alright, 80%. What was the margin for error? Who conducted the poll? Do they have a bias? If so, what is it? How was the poll conducted? What were the actual questions and answers? How were the questions phrased? What are the demographics of the respondents? What percentage is supporting the soldiers, not the reasons for the war? You are making a blanket statement that has no meaning. As an extreme example of meaningless statistics, did you know that almost every mass murderer in the last 100 years ate carrots in the month prior to committing their crimes? So? It doesn’t mean a thing without all the other factors.

Throughout history leaders have whipped up the population to a war frenzy through propaganda and hysterics that had little to do with the real reasons for the war. I am not opposed to removing Saddam Hussien from power. I am opposed to hyperbole, hysterics, histrionics and meaningless excuses.

Have you ever done a content analysis on a political speech? It’s entertaining. Once you sort out the chaff and meaningless verbiage you often come up with little to nothing said. Most speeches are written to appeal to emotions rather than logic or reason. I prefer to try and look at the logic.

In any event, I am not comfortable simply following majority opinion, I rather think things through for myself. For that reason, former supervisors and psychological evaluations have referred to me as detached and very logical. Almost every performance evaluation I’ve ever had notes that I tend to put my feelings aside and look at issues clearly, coming to logical and well reasoned decisions. There is no reason to believe my thoughts now are any less logical or well reasoned. If you can give me answers to my questions that are supported in facts, I am perfectly willing to change my mind. So far, that has not been done.

[hoodas]

belgareth, good points on the validity of the 80% stat. The media throws out stats right and left, and most people don\'t really look at them closely to make sure that the numbers are really saying what they are saying.

My other comment on the war is if Saddam is really a threat to the U.S. and has a link to Al Qaeda, why is this war being called Iraqi Freedom? I remember a few months before the war, Bush was saying that Iraq needs to allow inspectors in, but then the tune was changed to Iraq is not fully disclosing everything, and then the tune changed to we need a regime change, and now the focus is on freeing the Iraqis, c\'mon lets get real if we are really freeing the Iraqis then there a whole list of countries that need to be rescued, how come we aren\'t freeing all of those countries? If we are to be the policing the world, I say we should at least be fair and do it everywhere.

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I remember a few months before the war, Bush was saying that Iraq needs to allow inspectors in, but then the tune was changed to Iraq is not fully disclosing everything, and then the tune changed to we need a regime change, and now the focus is on freeing the Iraqis,

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Good point. It was obvious several months ago that no matter what they did, we were going to attack. The Iraqi government could have invited our congress to set up shop in Bagdad and we would still have said is wasn\'t good enough. That\'s part of the reason I do not believe what our government or the news organizations are telling us. We\'ve been lied to from the begining.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok, rather or not your questions are reasonalbe and logical still remains to be seen. Well if you want to see a link it is there, take for instance head al queada leaders getting direct passage into afghanistan for protection and medical asistance. The war is not just a war on terror its a war for humanity, for the rights of people everywhere to live free free from totalitarian dictarship brutality and terror. If your setting on the fence then why are your arguements so blantantly wrong. Is it that physcological you just don\'t want to accept the fact that for freedom sometimes we must take up arms. I am sorry but this is where i don\'t understand people with your point of view because, you are so idealistic its as if you have seperated yourself from all the problems that will always esist in some manner or from and someone will always have to police them. Well i guess we can all sing songs and dance ane pretend we live in a Utopian society
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[belgareth]

Natedog:

Al Queada leaders got free passage into Afganistan? What does that have to do with attacking Iraq? Shouldn\'t we be attacking Afganistan instead?

Dancing and singing? Not likely. I volunteered to wear a uniform and prepared to fight. By pure chance, I was not involved in any conflict. The military discharged me early for injuries I recieved while serving my country.

I said I was sitting on the fence, that was past tense. We have been lied to repeatedly and impossible demands kept being made. The war was going to start no matter what happened. Please spare me the rant about a war for all humanity. We are acting as the bully and against the wishes of much of humanity. If my arguments are so blatantly wrong, address them with reason and facts. That is not so much to ask, is it? I am willing to listen, are you?