DrSmellThis is an expert.

[bsxs]

I\'ve been reading his posts for a while, he seems like the most educated in smell out of anyone in this forum, and he is the most reliable in my opinion. So newbies, listen to DrSmellThis\'s advice, he knows what hes talking about.

[franki]

I believe DST says : \"Don\'t use DHEA at your age\" or \"Be very careful with it at your age\". Are you gonna listen to him?

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[MaxiMog]

Yeah good one Franki!

[bsxs]

I probably should. I tried it for the first time today. A 25mg. I feel a lot more masculine, and a lot hornier and energetic. I\'m not sure. I\'m 17, so I think this is too much. How much is safe for a 17 year old? I take pills that almost ELIMINATE my libido and energy so DHEA seems useful.

[Watcher]

In youre case DHEA would be useful, horny goatweed/tribulus should also help. Drsmellthis is very good i will admit.

[bsxs]

Should I take DHEA with Tribulus and Horny Goat Weed? I have those also. Don\'t you think that would be too much? I mean people say just DHEA 25mg is a lot.

[Watcher]

Well honry goatweed and tribulus will use the DHEA as a source of \"fuel\" in converting it into higher testostrone, remember DHEA is the source and the tribulus etc will increase youre metobolism (good way to lose body fat \'Unwanted\" in obese people) and raise energy levels and sex drive.
Dont see any prblem if worried cut back the DHEA to 20 mgs of less, i take 20 mg of DHEA and the horny goatweed/tribulus and protein powder and actually feel way healthier.

[bsxs]

I do feel a lot healthier right now. I\'m in general, in a better mood.

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks, guys. There are many smart, knowledgeable people here, to be sure.

Bsxs, do you understand exactly why your medicine hurts your libido? It might have nothing to do with DHEA. You might be trying to kill a fly with a machine gun.

You have to do what you think is best, but if the health and sex issue is that big for you, wouldn\'t it be well worth it to get your hormone levels tested??! To do this accurately, you have to get both blood and saliva tests done, as what\'s in your blood serum at some random time provides little information about how much of a hormone is actually functioning in your body over the course of a day. Rocky Mountain Labs in Tenn. is the best place I know to get such testing done, but they might just do it for physicians.

25 mg DHEA could cause problems for you at your age, taken long term.

If you have to take something, something like MACA root is probably safer, or even a small dose of Tribulus. But even then, it might be good to go to a reputable Chinese herbalist, say, and get something designed for you. It\'s usually a good idea to take regular time off from such regimens, too.

[xvs]

One problem with taking DHEA is that much of it will turn to estrogen.

Read this very interesting article for some good information.

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-txt/t-prtcl-130.html

You can stop this estrogen transformation by taking christin and piperine, among other aromatase inhibitors.

[bsxs]

Zoloft has been known to have that effect.

[bsxs]

Do you think DHEA 25mg is fine as long as it is in moderation?

[Phantom]

I cycle my DHEA and Tribulus, I take them for 3 weeks then I don\'t the fourth week (it give my body time to rest), then do the same thing the next month. The rest of the supplements you have, you can take all month long.

[CptKipling]

I would take less. Watcher, only give advice if you know what you\'re talking about, this is someone\'s health here.

Take it in limitation, maybe 5mg. Take ZMA aswell, it supposidly reduces E conversion (from MIKE, i think...), while also boosting T levels.

[Phantom]

I knows guys who take 100mg - 400mg of DHEA a day and have no ill effects. I think taking 5mg would be like taking nothing at all. And remember Cpt, all those study\'s showing DHEA\'s effectiveness were done with guys using dosages from 200mg - 1000+.

[Phantom]

xvs- it is impossible for DHEA to turn directly into estrogen because 90% of it turns into DHEA-S in the blood, The 10% of left over DHEA probably turns into Testosterone and if there\'s any conversion into estrogen it\'s probably very minimal.

Guys please try to know your stuff before you post, if you post on just assumption your going to look stupid and mislead people.

[CptKipling]

I admit I\'m only going off what people on this forum say, but they are smart guys...

[MadDoctor]

DrSmellThis is a scent guru. I would be asking to be his apprentice if he were soliciting apprentices, and if PMs worked.

Speaking of which, I believe DST said that 15 mg. was the same maximum for DHEA, and I don\'t think he recommended it for anyone under 25. In dosages higher than that, it seems to possibly be linked with long-term health problems, like liver cancer (which is essentially incurable and fatal).

DST, please correct me if I\'m wrong! My memory is good, but not infallible.

-- MD

[Phantom]

It supposedly causes liver cancer in rodents and trout.

( http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/sp-su97/dhea.html )

\"My laboratory, under the leadership of Dr. Gayle Orner, has demonstrated that DHEA is a potent liver tumor-promoting agent and a complete carcinogen in the trout tumor model. Scientists and clinicians have known for years that feeding high doses of DHEA over periods of a year or more to rodents results in liver cancers. The risk for humans, however, has been assumed to be negligible--the mechanism of carcinogenesis in rodents is thought to be through DHEA functioning as a peroxisome proliferating agent, and humans are known to be relatively insensitive to such agents. However, we have found that DHEA, when fed for only a few months, causes liver cancer in trout at 20-fold lower doses than in the rat. Furthermore, trout, like humans, are insensitive to peroxisome proliferators. We have recently obtained further evidence that the mechanism of DHEA liver carcinogenesis in trout relates to its conversion to androgens and estrogens, a mechanism relevant to humans.\"

-----------------------------------------------------
Another study has found...


\"Extremely high doses of DHEA without antioxidant supplementation (ranging from 2,000 to 20,000 mg daily in human terms) caused liver damage in mice and rats, but DHEA also inhibited tumor proliferation of rat liver cells by blocking the cancer cell promoting enzyme glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PDH). DHEA was thus shown to inhibit cancer cell proliferation. The human equivalent dose of 600 mg a day suppressed breast tumors in mice by 70%, yet even human equivalent doses of 25-120 mg showed striking cancer prevention benefits, with no evidence of toxicity. \"

( http://www.dietsexercise.com/dhea-Text.htm )

[Phantom]

Again, look at the doses their using for their studies \"(Extremely high doses of DHEA without antioxidant supplementation (ranging from 2,000 to 20,000 mg daily in human terms) caused liver damage in mice and rats )\" thats just ridiculous, if you were to taking DHEA at a tenth of that dose you deserve to get live damage because of your incredible stupidity.

[DrSmellThis]

at 15mg/day prostate problems are significantly higher, according to one study I saw. I haven\'t seen side effects reported at < 10mg, but at age 18 you are producing buttloads of DHEA, unless you have an endocrine problem.

[DrSmellThis]

A while back I posted a thread. Do a search on \"DHEA Need to Knows\"; and follow the many links. There are oodles of studies.

[MadDoctor]

Thanks, DST and Phantom. I love having other people document things!

lazily yours,

MadDr

[marv14yag]

Basically, what that means is...

DHEA is good, but like alcohol is good, it\'s hard on the liver if you take a LOT OF IT. However, DHEA is supposedly the BEST anti-oxidant you can get.

You know, I used to think side effects were only PHSYICAL!

Well, they\'re NOT.

And, I have stopped taking DHEA now.

But...

Basically, just like steroids, you build more muscle than your body needs, etc. Not only that, it\'s like caffeine. Although it tells the body to fight disease more, fight cancer, anti-oxidant, etc, build more muscle, more sexual aggression, etc. That is hard on not only teh body, but the mind.

Because you are fighting something more is nelgible.

Like caffeine, that says to keep going, and uses itself as a substrate, etc. Your body keeps going. You HAVE ENERGY, but it\'s hard on the body. And, you end up having less after a while.

Same thing on DHEA. Although aggression increases, etc. Even if you negate side effects...Because DHEA won\'t really turn into estrogen, and you take supplements for your jionts, etc, and all this, it\'s hard on your body.

Side effects that REALLY happen

1. Aggression you don\'t need. This will leave you mad at the everything (basically, aggression comes from the anxst). This is MANY bodybuilders\' problems. Their body is NEVER good enough. The world isn\'t good enough, etc. Aggression, you want BETTER. When does it end though?

2. More increased libido. However, the body CANNOT KEEP UP. After a while I stoped getting as hard erections, etc. It MAKES SENSE! I mean, testosterone is DIRECTLY RELATED to the amount of sperm releaseed. But it DOENS\'T INCREASE how MUCH YOU PRODUCE! To where, you\'re just shooting blanks and etc.

Probably more.

Basically...

DHEA makes body fight disease, build muscle, everything good.

Body can\'t keep up.

Even if you make it to where you don\'t get physical side effects, there ARE the side effects.

Bart

[Phantom]

Thats exactly why you have to use it in cycles, your body needs time to recover and regulate it\'s self. Also that zoloft is like cocaine, yea you get a boost of serotonin for a few weeks but then the good effects start to diminish (lowered anxiety, better mood) then thats when your doctor increases the dosage and then the whole cycle happens again. Until you reach a dosage so high that it\'ll be almost impossible to get off of, those anti-depressants actually cause Withdrawl just like crack/coaine and morphine addicts. I think any of these supplements mentioned here are 1000 times safer than most of the prescription medications destributed these days. Just use DHEA in moderation and you wont have any problems.


( http://www.zoloft-side-effects-lawyer.com/other.htm )
( http://www.prozactruth.com/zoloft.htm )

[xvs]

Phantom,

What are you basing this on?

Low testosterone issues in men often have to do with high estrogen issues as well.

DHEA is a precursor of both testosterone and estrogen. In men who have too much aromatase, the DHEA converts preferentially to estrogen and provides no benefit or even negative effect on testosterone/estrogen balance.

Did you even bother to read the LEF article I posted a link to?

Please back up your statements with citations before merely saying someone\'s wrong.

[Phantom]

\"The reason that testosterone replacement therapy does not work by itself for many men is that exogenously administered testosterone may convert (aromatize) into even more estrogen, thus potentially worsening the hormone imbalance problem in aging males (i.e., too much estrogen and not enough free testosterone) (21, 26). While there are studies showing that testosterone replacement therapy does not increase estrogen beyond normal reference ranges, we will show later how the standard laboratory reference ranges do not adequately address the issue of estrogen overload (4, 8, 9, 17, 22-25, 27, 29-32).\"

Thats using raw testosterone!!!
---------------------------------------

I feel like hitting you with a stick! In that whole article I don\'t find any compeling evidence that your statement (\"One problem with taking DHEA is that much of it will turn to estrogen.\") is false. All they say is that \"Inadequate amounts of DHEA are being produced in the body. (DHEA is a precursor hormone to testosterone and estrogen) (250).\"And that statement has nothing to do with DHEA and it turning into estrogen, all your doing is twisting their words to your own benifit.
---------------------------------------

Look at all the good things they say about DHEA:

In Dr. Jonathan Wright\'s book, Maximize Your Vitality & Potency, a persuasive case is made that testosterone and DHEA actually protect against the development of both benign and malignant prostate disease (305). Dr. Wright also points out that natural therapies such as saw palmetto, nettle, and pygeum provide a considerable degree of protection against the alleged negative effects that higher levels of testosterone might have on the prostate gland.

[xvs]

Do some more reading.

For example:


Biotransformation of oral dehydroepiandrosterone in elderly men: significant increase in circulating estrogens.

Arlt W, Haas J, Callies F, Reincke M, Hubler D, Oettel M, Ernst M, Schulte HM, Allolio B.
Department of Endocrinology, Medical University Hospital Wuerzburg, Germany.

The most abundant human steroids, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate ester DHEAS, may have a multitude of beneficial effects, but decline with age. DHEA possibly prevents immunosenescence, and as a neuroactive steroid it may influence processes of cognition and memory. Epidemiological studies revealed an inverse correlation between DHEAS levels and the incidence of cardiovascular disease in men, but not in women. To define a suitable dose for DHEA substitution in elderly men we studied pharmacokinetics and biotransformation of orally administered DHEA in 14 healthy male volunteers (mean age, 58.8 +/- 5.1 yr; mean body mass index, 25.5 +/- 1.5 kg/m2) with serum DHEAS concentrations below 4.1 micromol/L (1500 ng/mL). Diurnal blood sampling was performed on 3 occasions in a single dose, randomized, cross-over design (oral administration of placebo, 50 mg DHEA, or 100 mg DHEA). The intake of 50 mg DHEA led to an increase in serum DHEAS to mean levels of young adult men, whereas 100 mg DHEA induced supraphysiological concentrations [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; area under the curve (AUC) 0-12 h (mean +/- SD) for DHEA, 108 +/- 22 vs. 252 +/- 45 vs. 349 +/- 72 nmol/L x h; AUC 0-12 h for DHEAS, 33 +/- 9 vs. 114 +/- 19 vs. 164 +/- 36 micromol/L x h]. Serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone remained unchanged after DHEA administration. In contrast, 17beta-estradiol and estrone significantly increased in a dose-dependent manner to concentrations still within the upper normal range for men [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; AUC 0-12 h for 17beta-estradiol, 510 +/- 198 vs. 635 +/- 156 vs. 700 +/- 209 pmol/L x h (P < 0.0001); AUC 0-12 h for estrone, 1443 +/- 269 vs. 2537 +/- 434 vs. 3254 +/- 671 pmol/L x h (P < 0.0001)]. In conclusion, 50 mg DHEA seems to be a suitable substitution dose in elderly men, as it leads to serum DHEAS concentrations usually measured in young healthy adults. The DHEA-induced increase in circulating estrogens may contribute to beneficial effects of DHEA in men.

[Phantom]

<font color=blue>I don\'t know what article you were reading because that information certainly was not here ( http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-txt/t-prtcl-130.html ) 17beta-estradiol and estrone are weak metabolites of estrogen and they should be of no concern because even in that paragraph you posted, it says that the levels were still in their normal range. Also those studies were of people taking 50mg to 100mg doses, if you were to be taking 25mg of DHEA there probably would\'nt be much of a significant change in your estrogen blood serum levels.</font color=blue>

------------------------------------------------------
The most abundant human steroids, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate ester DHEAS, may have a multitude of beneficial effects, but decline with age. DHEA possibly prevents immunosenescence, and as a neuroactive steroid it may influence processes of cognition and memory. Epidemiological studies revealed an inverse correlation between DHEAS levels and the incidence of cardiovascular disease in men, but not in women. To define a suitable dose for DHEA substitution in elderly men we studied pharmacokinetics and biotransformation of orally administered DHEA in 14 healthy male volunteers (mean age, 58.8 +/- 5.1 yr; mean body mass index, 25.5 +/- 1.5 kg/m2) with serum DHEAS concentrations below 4.1 micromol/L (1500 ng/mL). Diurnal blood sampling was performed on 3 occasions in a single dose, randomized, cross-over design (oral administration of placebo, 50 mg DHEA, or 100 mg DHEA). The intake of 50 mg DHEA led to an increase in serum DHEAS to mean levels of young adult men, whereas 100 mg DHEA induced supraphysiological concentrations [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; area under the curve (AUC) 0-12 h (mean +/- SD) for DHEA, 108 +/- 22 vs. 252 +/- 45 vs. 349 +/- 72 nmol/L x h; AUC 0-12 h for DHEAS, 33 +/- 9 vs. 114 +/- 19 vs. 164 +/- 36 micromol/L x h]. Serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone remained unchanged after DHEA administration. In contrast, 17beta-estradiol and estrone significantly increased in a dose-dependent manner to concentrations still within the upper normal range for men[placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; AUC 0-12 h for 17beta-estradiol, 510 +/- 198 vs. 635 +/- 156 vs. 700 +/- 209 pmol/L x h (P &lt; 0.0001); AUC 0-12 h for estrone, 1443 +/- 269 vs. 2537 +/- 434 vs. 3254 +/- 671 pmol/L x h (P &lt; 0.0001)]. In conclusion, 50 mg DHEA seems to be a suitable substitution dose in elderly men, as it leads to serum DHEAS concentrations usually measured in young healthy adults. The DHEA-induced increase in circulating estrogens may contribute to beneficial effects of DHEA in men.
------------------------------------------------------

[marv14yag]

Yeah, for everything good, something bad. After every orgasm, or increase in serotonin levels follows a decrease, etc.

With the anti-depressants, same thing. And, they have found that cocaine kills the receptors for dopamine and etc (the brain can regrow itself, if it didn\'t, having sex would make you brainless) but, basically. You have a level of whatever, every time you get more, less follows.

You are saying, that you must give your body time to recover.

If this is true than you are advocating not taking DHEA in cycles, but rather every OTHER day, etc. Cycles, would do little as far as recovevery, becasue in that 6-8 week cycle there would be no recovery at all.

What you are advocating is that using DHEA in moderation will have no problems, however...The body will regulate itself.

The only time something will have no side effects is if you are LACKING because the BODY can\'t do it for some reason. Example: if you lose 1 or both of your balls than testosterone replacement is necessary, because the body would up it if it could, but now can\'t.

It\'s like a car. If you change one thing, than you have to change everything. If you put a turbo on the car, you\'re going to have to get bigger exaust to keep the engine from overheating, etc, for example.

I\'ll just give the example of the sterile situation.

DHEA makes body\'s test increase, releasing more sperm. Body HOWEVER (just like the car, the DHEA or testosterone is the TURBO and the engine is the sperm production.) the body cannot replace the extra amount of sperm lost, for example.

That\'s one example.

Goes for basically everything, you put into your body that is a drug, there\'s always the negative effect.

HOWEVER, the body is an adaptive organism. As, if you smoke weed for 3 years, and quit, you will only have withdrawal (mental, not physical) for probably 1 or 2.

That\'s basically the premise of masterbation. It actually RELEASES DHEA, however, the amount it released causes the body to make more, however, if not released the body would not have upped up production, however, this only goes so far, as anything external isn\'t going to help, unless you have some type of problem.

EVERYTHING works good at first.

Personal resutls.

Caffeine, DHEA, etc...Good at first, not after a while, etc.

Yeah, you can keep take DHEA to up the body\'s levels and etc. However, they are going to have to equal out, so, you don\'t cycle, and so, they are always high, that\'s good and all, but the REST of the body can\'t handle it.

Just like the car. You get a small engine and tune if faster, or put in nitrous, not good.

The best natural bodybuilders have larger bone structures. Just like the car, the engine is bigger AND the exauast also.

Tribilus, etc...They all increase it naturally, and without hormones, but it\'s the same thing. Estrogen isn\'t the only proble you have. And, bobybuilders that take estrogen often lose libido, why? You need estrogen. Even though DHEA gives you the right ratio, it\'s not the right ratio compared to the rest of your body.

Same thing for the pheromones I think. However, you can always do quality.

Basically, the body has a certain point of how much weight for your bone structure, and pheromones, etc.

Basically, eat the amount you need to eat, without being extra or more, and get the vitamins you need, and the body has the amount of size it wants, to your bone structure, etc. You just change the percetnage of that to muscle. 7% of ideal to be at constant. Bodbuilders go lower, but they can\'t stay that way, and it\'s not healthy. Remember, you store, DHEA and vitamins in your fat a lot of the time.

And there you go. Being the best you can be. However, vitamins, etc. Calcium from milk, multi-vitamins, the body will increase energy levels, becasue it\'s supposed to, just didn\'t have the right nutrients. A lot of the TIME OBESE PEOPLE, the body stores more food becasue it\'s not getting the right NUTRIENTS! So it takes more food to get the nutrients, but hey end up fat. Doesn\'t matter, as long as you surive is what the body cares about.

Bart