Vive La France

[bundyburger]

I\'m not sure, but did I hear right that Iran has an army on the Iraqi border ready to attack Iraq from the opposite side when the USA commences attack??

[franki]

I doubt that they want to do that, as they would come in conflict with the US-troops, who are not their best friends.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[bundyburger]

I only seen this on the news last night, but wasn\'t listening properly.

Apparently if they see any confirmation that there is a go ahead, they want to take advantage of it.
Maybe they want the UN to vote yes. I\'m not sure.

[Lucky]

MadDoctor,
Thought provoking post....interesting that Ahmed Chalabi is rarely mentioned in the mainstream news. Imagine that.

[Whitehall]

During the Clinton administration, the US and the world has drifted without leadership or a strategic plan. The result is the development of challenges to world peace and order. The proliferation of cheap and readily available WMD threatens civilization (in the long run.)

Wolfowitz and associates have presented a credible plan for bringing order and peace to the world. I think their plan is doable. It does imposes continual burdens on the US for maintaining order but continued world anarchy will just not do.

It will involve a weakening of power for every other nation as they realize that they have to give up some autonomy to the world hegemon (the US) in exchange for global policing. The other governments of the world do not yet know or understand just what they will have to give up nor what they will gain - hence the opposition. Other countries (FRANCE!) see this as an opportunity to exploit the unease caused by the moves of the US.

I see the Wolfowitz plan as giving us solid direction for the next 10 years. After that, events and developments may cause a rethinking of our strategy although I suspect that it will not need major revision for 20 years and maybe longer. The time around 2020 could be a time of major upheaval in the world.

Trying to demonize a farsighted thinker like Wolfowitz is pure ad hominem argument.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Did anybody else notice that the madoctors links were all from what most good americans would consider left wing sources. lol it was just abunch of links to biased reporting. Some of those articles were almost ten years old anyway the world is always changing and if you can learn from the sistory of the modern word, and even ancient civilizations, ememies can become friends to take care of a greater ememy. Well i just thought i would bring it to atenttion of all the forum members here to keep that in mind when you read madoctors post. To me theres nothing more irritating than when someone does what he did and supports stupidity with lies. Just because its in the newspaper doesn\'t make it fact. Well its past arguement anyway we are going to make the world a safer place for all of the world. You know 95% of americans support the boycott of france and 1% doesn\'t know , and 4% Have no balls!!! lol

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh bullsh!t. You know what\'s irritating to me is when conservatives call any good argument that doesn\'t support their stated opinions \"left wing\" so as to try to discredit it. Us left wing sympathizers are forced to read your dogma; you should read ours sometimes just for a change, for the mental exercise of it. It\'s comfortable to get yourself situated in your position and never look around and see what anything else has to offer but it\'s no huge virtue to be narrow minded.

[EXIT63]

Here\'s a little more anti-pinko dogma.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/davidhorowitz/dh20030318.shtml

[belgareth]

I don\'t know where you got the number of 95% supporting the boycott of France, but it is bogus. Half the population of the US do not support Bush\'s war nor do they support the unfair attacks made against the French people. Before you start quoting numbers, please get honest numbers.

[tallmacky]

Actually its 96% who are for the boycott, it is a ture and accurate poll, you can go to www.foxnews.com/oreilly I think. The point is that half of the US is not against this war its just the media trying to paint a picture of post-vietnam where people were looking for something to believe in and decided the war needed to stop and so on. That is not the case for this generation. To be blunt many protest now just for the \"image factor\" it looks like you are caring and politically on top of things and so on.

[EXIT63]

HUH?!?!

In the event that American forces or those allied to them should face a new situation such as a chemical or biological attack, France would assess the measures of assistance to take in a spirit of friendship and solidarity.\"

I thought they didn\'t have any.

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=SEGLKJVOF4E0WCRBAEKSF FA?type=worldNews&storyID=2402847

[belgareth]

I\'d hardly call that a scientific or even valid poll. 95% of the people who chose to listen to his program agreed with him. That anybody would apply that to the population as a whole is absurd. Do you have realistic poll data from an unbiased, source covering a statistically valid group within the US population?

I am still not for or against the war, I\'m on the fence. But using numbers like that just do not prove anything.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thought they didn\'t have any measures of assistance?

[EXIT63]

no, chemical weapons

[Watcher]

I would like to know what the nature of their assistance would be, would it be substantial or would it be a token guesture to get media attention.

[EXIT63]

...I would like to know what the nature of their assistance would be, would it be substantial or would it be a token guesture to get media attention...

Probably waiting tables.

[MadDoctor]

They (Fox) actually did a more scientific survey too:
\"France and Germany have been outspoken opponents of military action against Iraq and instead have pushed for more time and inspections. Even so, only about one in five Americans thinks the United States should impose sanctions against France and Germany because of their opposition and even fewer (15 percent), say they have stopped purchasing French or German products.\"

So 80% don\'t believe in sanctions against France, and 85% aren\'t boycotting.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,79819,00.html

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Exit, they\'re saying if we got hit with biological or chemical weapons, in a spirit of friendship, France would decide what kind of help they might give us.

I dunno about you, but I feel a draft at my back ...

[Whitehall]

Chirac has seriously overplayed his hand and Bush called his bluff.

The British ruling class has had a repeat lesson in why you can never trust the French. Hopes that the UK would subsume it\'s national identity in the European Union should evaporate.

It will now be US policy to subvert and oppose the European Union - so long as France has a lead role. It has me thinking about the long-term stability and reliability of the euro. We\'re bidding on a huge, multi-year project worth billions to be paid in euros - what happens if the EU collapses before the project is complete and paid?

NATO has proved worst than useless - it\'s now a weapon to be used against American interests.

Chirac has made many powerful enemies in this country. He\'s going to have to kiss more than cheeks to find a friend here. We\'re going to cut the French off at the knees. They should remember what happened to the Japanese in the 80\'s after they got too big for their britches - their economy is a basket case now. Give us a year or two but the discipline will come.

The French people are going to wish they had voted for Le Pen.



Another prediction - Colin Powell will not serve in the next Bush administration and might leave sooner.

[abductor]

was... Statue of Liberty-US Freedom-NY was a France gift !?!?

[MadDoctor]

> The French people are going to wish they had voted for Le Pen.

Ah, the man who tortured Algerians in 1957 with beatings and electric shock. The one who founded the National Front, getting help from a convicted war criminal, a former Nazi collaborator and member of the Vichy militia, and a former member of the Waffen SS. He who unabashedly stated that races are not equal, that Chirac is under the control of the Jews, that the holocaust was \"a mere detail of history.\" Banned from the 2000 elections for physically assaulting a rival political candidate. Wonderful guy, sounds like a model leader.

By the way, the quote you use in your signature is from Voltaire, not the Marquis de Lafayette. The Marquis is better remembered for statements like \"When the government violates the people\'s rights, insurrection is, for the people and for each portion of the people, the most sacred of the rights and the most indispensible of duties.\" Friend of Washington and Jefferson, he was the ultimate champion of liberty, and co-author (with Jefferson) of The Declaration Of The Rights Of Man And Of The Citizen.
He favored representative and democratic government, either by constitutional monarchy or republic. Napoleon invited him to join his government and accept the Legion of Honor, but he wanted nothing to do with Napoleon\'s imperial ambitions and declined both. He did, however, happily participate in arranging Napoleon\'s abdication in 1815.

Here\'s another good one from Voltaire: \"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.\"

[franki]

I think the more the USA opposes Europe the more european countries are going to have to get together. This will rather lead to a stronger EU than a collapse of the union. The Iraq-crisis has showed us one more time how important it is that Europe should speak with one voice.

I don\'t think the Euro will collapse. The japanese economy is down the drain, but their currency is still strong against the dollar (that is one of their biggest problems). A few basic economic data, such as the fact that the USA imports way more capital than it exports, rather speak for a weakish dollar.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[franki]

I think Europe is in a dilemma. On the one hand it doesn\'t want a weak isolationist USA. We need the USA for security and stability in the world. Best example for this is that Europe couldn\'t solve its own problems in Bosnia and in Kosovo. If you go farther back there is WW1 and WW2.

On the other hand, we don\'t want the USA to become too strong. If it becomes too strong Europe is afraid the USA will dictate the world its will.

If Europe would become a super power itself, we probably wouldn\'t have these problems, but then I am not seeing that happen in the near future (too much disconsense) and I don\'t know if it is the right thing to do.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[bivonic]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

Originally posted by Whitehall:
Chirac has seriously overplayed his hand and Bush called his bluff.

The British ruling class has had a repeat lesson in why you can never trust the French. Hopes that the UK would subsume it\'s national identity in the European Union should evaporate.

It will now be US policy to subvert and oppose the European Union - so long as France has a lead role. It has me thinking about the long-term stability and reliability of the euro. We\'re bidding on a huge, multi-year project worth billions to be paid in euros - what happens if the EU collapses before the project is complete and paid?

NATO has proved worst than useless - it\'s now a weapon to be used against American interests.

Chirac has made many powerful enemies in this country. He\'s going to have to kiss more than cheeks to find a friend here. We\'re going to cut the French off at the knees. They should remember what happened to the Japanese in the 80\'s after they got too big for their britches - their economy is a basket case now. Give us a year or two but the discipline will come.

<hr></blockquote>
Well said.
<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

Originally posted by franki:
I think the more the USA opposes Europe the more european countries are going to have to get together. This will rather lead to a stronger EU than a collapse of the union. The Iraq-crisis has showed us one more time how important it is that Europe should speak with one voice.

<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

Originally posted by franki:
I think Europe is in a dilemma. On the one hand it doesn\'t want a weak isolationist USA. We need the USA for security and stability in the world. Best example for this is that Europe couldn\'t solve its own problems in Bosnia and in Kosovo. If you go farther back there is WW1 and WW2.

On the other hand, we don\'t want the USA to become too strong. If it becomes too strong Europe is afraid the USA will dictate the world its will.

If Europe would become a super power itself, we probably wouldn\'t have these problems, but then I am not seeing that happen in the near future (too much disconsense) and I don\'t know if it is the right thing to do.

<hr></blockquote>
I have lost all faith in the French, our allies do not need to fully support our actions - take Canada for example they are not in a position to send more troops, that\'s OK, but when our allies make such flagrant statements such as, \"We intend to veto any resolution that the United States puts forth.\" to directly oppose our actions for their own selfish self-interests (whether it be financial or to cover up their contributions to their military regime) - to hell with them! I have never been more ashamed to have french lineage in my blood, I actually considered legally changing my last name I am so disgusted by their flippant behavior.

[franki]

The french government has a tradition of acting arrogant, in that we agree, but what about some of the things that cause the French to act like they do, the American position?

\"If you are not with us, you are against us\" In other words, if you not support us with EVERYTHING we do we consider you as our enemy. I know this is oversimplified, but that is what it comes down to. How do you expect other countries to react to that?

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Bruce]

Franki,
Well said. Interesting to hear what resonable folks overseas might be thinking about the situation.
Bruce

[frenchie]

\"The french government has a tradition of acting very arrogant, in that we agree\"
I agree too, when it comes to european laws : France is not ready to obey, is always late and it\'s no good for Europe (I think of environmental and ecologic problems).

\"If you are not with us, you are against us\" In other words, if you not support us with EVERYTHING we do we consider you as our enemy\"
isn\'t that an arrogant and very proud attitude ? Moreover, this is how world wars have begun... does Mr B want a world war ?

For those who say we should have voted for Le Pen... well come on here in Paris and say it loud. You\'ll see the reactions !

Frenchie
not boycotting this thread though we are political enemies ! :-))

[Whitehall]

As to Le Pen, he was #2 vote getter I understand. I do not have to make a decision as to the best leader for France - that\'s for the French voters. I am saying that the French will look back on this episode of history and find that they have been ill-served by Chirac. He has made a historic gamble and I think he will be shown to have lost it to the long-term detriment of the French people.

As Franki points out, Europe has been forced to make a choice - aspire to integration and then super-power status or continue to fall-in behind American global leadership. From where we sit, Europe has little hope of mounting anything like a serious challenge - now or in the foreseeable future, especially under French leadership. Do you really think welfare state socialism and bureaucratic centralization is the wave of the future? There is little objective evidence saying that method of organizing society and economics is competitive with more lasseiz faire economics and minimal government intervention as practiced in the US. Asia\'s economical growth came only AFTER it renounced excessive governmental controls. It\'s your choice - you\'ll have to live with the consequences.

Of course, each country in Europe is free to order their own society (within limits, of course.) Just don\'t be surprised if the choices you make do not support your global ambitions or self-image in a competitive world.

As to the source of my quote - Lafayette vs Voltaire, you may well be right. If Voltaire, he was a scribbler and not prone to \"fight to the death\" about anything. At least Lafayette picked up a gun and put himself in harm\'s way in the American Revolution. The quote sure takes on more legitimacy if Lafayette said it!

Our US diplomats are already talking about patching things up with the French. Chirac is making quacking noises that suggest he\'s really our true and loyal buddy-buddy. This is necessary and proper in the short run but don\'t be fooled - US foreign policy will be bent on dominating \"Old Europe\" and opposing any growth in its power to oppose the US in the future.

Today, in the US, it has become a powerful, biting political slur to say of a politician \"He supports the French position.\"

From where we sit, a new world war has already begun. Just as WWII began for us with the 2,500 Americans killed in a surprise attack at Pearl Harbor, the 3,000 dead on 9/11 was the first blow. Just as victory after WWII came from our efforts to remake the world with the reconstruction of Germany and Japan as functioning, friendly democracies, we\'ll have to remake the world again, beginning with Afghanistan and Iraq.

We are not \"enemies\" of the French. We are serious competitors. I think it was Tallyrand\'s line that \"politics is the art of accommodating the inevitiable.\" Chirac didn\'t follow that wise French stateman\'s advice.

[franki]

&gt;&gt;&gt;
As Franki points out, Europe has been forced to make a choice - aspire to integration and then super-power status or continue to fall-in behind American global leadership. From where we sit, Europe has little hope of mounting anything like a serious challenge - now or in the foreseeable future, especially under French leadership. Do you really think welfare state socialism and bureaucratic centralization is the wave of the future? There is little objective evidence saying that method of organizing society and economics is competitive with more lasseiz faire economics and minimal government intervention as practiced in the US. Asia\'s economical growth came only AFTER it renounced excessive governmental controls. It\'s your choice - you\'ll have to live with the consequences.

Of course, each country in Europe is free to order their own society (within limits, of course.) Just don\'t be surprised if the choices you make do not support your global ambitions or self-image in a competitive world. &lt;&lt;

You are almost 100% right with that, but remember that Europe is also capable of spending 300 or 400 billion dollar a year on its military when it wants to. I don\'t say that is a good idea, but it is an option to keep in mind.

Airbus is selling more airplanes than Boeing this year, while nobody would have ever thought that would happen. So, what I want to point out is that there is quite a bit possible.

I don\'t like the idea of Europe as a political rival of the USA, I would rather see the both of them work together like they did during the Cold War. NATO is (still) one of the instruments for that, Rice said in an interview with a german newspaper that NATO is going to survive the problems that recently occured. I would like to believe that, but I also have my doubts.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[EXIT63]

I don\'t know a lot about the E.U. (obviously) but IMO they should aspire to be an economic superpower rather than a military one. It\'s much less expensive.

Just think about the billions and billions they\'ve saved over the past decades by having the U.S. foot the bill for their security. (Not to mention the freedom and liberty that was saved when the Soviets were knocking on the door).

After crushing the Nazi regime and rebuilding Europe and their economies, we spent 40 years fighting the cold war. And when we ask for some help with the next series of challenges we are told to piss off. Thank You very much.

Does America do everything right? Of course not. Do we make mistakes? Sure. But the USA has done more good. Saved more lives. Fed more people. etc, etc, than any other country on Earth.

So when some third rate country like France (who has spent the last 20 years sponsoring terrorism) says they will veto any resolution without even reading it. I think the American people have the right to be mad at them.