Vive La France

[Watcher]

Because political leaders prefer to attack other political leaders its that simple.

[frenchie]

Maybe I\'m the only french human being on this forum, so I feel tons of bad talking on my back... not a nice feeling indeed !
\"It\'s the fact that a number of countries have vito powers that screws things.\" : these are anti-democratic words. The UN are supposed to have a democratic way of working, and that is normal.
Yes, most people want Saddam Hussein out, I do too. I disagree with Chirac on many things, but I think he is right on this subject. Let\'s be clear : what would happen if there was no oil in Iraq, he ? would your president really want to help democracy ? Politics really suck.
Anyway, I give up. I just hope this will end very soon and that we will go on talking nice.

Frenchie

[bundyburger]

<<\"It\'s the fact that a number of countries have vito powers that screws things.\" these are anti-democratic words.>>

No. It\'s the fact that one country with vito powers (say Russia) can overpower a majority. Is that Democratic?

<< Let\'s be clear : what would happen if there was no oil in Iraq, he ? would your president really want to help democracy ? >>

Hey. I\'m Aussie. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ...And I was trying to be on your side, yet have my own opinion. LOL [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

To clarify with everyone here: I DON\'T KNOW wether we should go to war or not. I\'d rather no war, yet Saddam should have been ousted a decade ago. I\'m glad it\'s not me who makes the decision. I just feel for the Iraqi people who have been, and will be, suffering because of one Toolbag.

[Elana]

Frenchie- I am very sorry if I hurt your feelings in any way, however, I have been boycotting French products for many reasons. One being France\'s tolerance for anti-Semitism, and for obvious current events. It is a personal choice that I have made.

[seadove]

<<<yet Saddam should have been ousted a decade ago>>>

I\'m afraid he\'s going to last two more decades.This stammering that\'s going on between the UN and USA is going to keep Saddam in his throne almost forever.

That\'s too bad.

[proteus]

There are many folks, myself included who think this anti-French fever that is gripping the US is absurd at best, and to me just another example of how infantile many are. It\'s like the little kid in the schoolyard who doesn\'t get his way and throws a tantrum. Just another example of this absurdity - certain conservative members of Congress have renamed \"French Fries\" and \"French toast\" , \"Freedom Fries\" and \"Freedom Toast\" respectively. I kid you not - do a search on AP/Reuters stories earlier this week if you think I jest.

[nonscents]

The US appears to be moving towards an economic crisis. We here in the US always like a good war in such times to help us feel better. Unfortunately, our erstwhile allies in such past ventures have the temerity this time to tell the emperor he has no clothes.

Frenchie, in the US today national chauvinism is being whipped up to a feverish pitch. I don\'t blame you for feeling unwelcome under such circumstances. My sister has dual citizenship and works in France. These are not happy times.

I can only ask you to overlook and forgive those who have no sources of knowledge of what goes on in the world aside from the traditional media. Certainly, they have no personal animus towards you. And for those who do have the access to alternative sources of information and still choose to French-bash, well, this is a pheromone discussion board last time I checked. You really don\'t have to pass a litmus test on international affairs to join it. Shoot, you don\'t even have to buy anything from Bruce to join it.

Let\'s come up with a policy about where to keep discussions about international politics. Then, if these discussions really bother you, you can just avoid that part of the discussion forum. Otherwise the reality we must face is that at times we will be made uncomfortable by the hostility of others. In France right now it might not be a big deal to be opposed to the war. Certainly I am aware that my position is not that of the majority of my fellow Americans. So be it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, Frenchie, sorry for any part I may have had in offending you. I don\'t know anything about politics and nothing about France anyway. I do know I don\'t want you hurt. So please would you accept my apologies for any stupidity I\'ve written on the subject.

[Whitehall]

Americans have been dismayed at the policies of the French government since at least the time of Clemenceau, Fuch and most certainly DeGaulle. Chirac\'s behavior can only increase the amount of American blood lost in this war. There is a lot of anger about this here.

There is not many ways for us to express this dismay and anger - we feel betrayed by a country we\'ve repeatedly sacrificed for - WWI, WWII, the Cold War. The relationship between our governments is bad and it\'s going to get worst. The French people will ultimately regret Chirac\'s election.

This tension will be expressed by individuals in trivial ways. I understand that Americans in Europe are being treated rather poorly. I know that French individuals here will generally be treated personally with dignity and respect. No one has dissed you personally, now have they?

Yet, we think we have a right - no, duty - to express our outrage about France. So far, we\'ve done this in jokey ways - Freedom Fries, indeed. If French manufacturers of wine, cheese, cologne, fountain pens. etc find Americans are no longer interested in their products, they can complain to their government.

Hang around. It\'s not about you.

[druid]

\"Everyone wants Saddam out. Even the French.\"

THE ONLY WAY TO GET SADDAM OUT IS BY FORCE. Is anyone here actually nieve enough to believe that Saddam will just walk away or accept exile???? So the French WANT Saddam out and Don\'t want a war? Seems like the French are talking out of both sides of their mouths. What real alternatives are there besides war? More inspections? I think we have established that he has weapons he is not suppose to. Then how do we reticfy this situation w/o war?

[franki]

There are options, like the CIA killing Saddam and trying to install another regime. These options are not very realistic though ..

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[frenchie]

Bundyburger : sorry, I didn\'t know you were Aussie ! I agree with you : Saddam should have been ousted 10 years ago. God only knows how he escaped : they were very close to the goal...
Saddam may be crazy - Khadafi was crazy, he\'s still at the head of Libya. Arafat was crazy, he\'s at the head of Palestine. Poutine is a dangerous man, he is at the head of Russia.

As a french citizen, I have absolutely nothing against the americans (generally speaking) because Mr B wants a war, and I will go on talking with you. I just think one can express such important opinions only when one knows about the subject (thanks, FTR for your post). I can\'t understand this basic France-bashing. It\'s the only reason why I reacted.

The text which made me really cross was this one : \"The last time the French asked for \'more proof\' it came marching into Paris under a German flag.\" --David Letterman. I think this quote is shocking for the french and the germans. The flag was nazi, not german, and there\'s a big difference between them.

Back to pheros, please...
Frenchie

[Whitehall]

\"The flag was nazi, not german, and there\'s a big difference between them. \"

About 70 years - The previous time the Germans were sipping coffee in conquered Paris was January 28, 1871 after Bismarck\'s victory in the Franco-Prussian War.

During WWI, the Germans got close enough to shell Paris but not sip coffee there.

Letterman\'s quip was to the point.

[tallmacky]

I did not even take this post seriously, I thought it was half truth half joke. I agree and disagree with both sides like I always do. Firstly I believe many of the post made were just letting off heat, I am sure on any french related forum (dominated nationality) they say much worse. Is that a good point no! Its very moronic and childish.

I do not like how people just change their minds and make a universal assumption. Sure France has stood by or is a stagnant in alot of political issues, but that right there is debatable. Does this have to do with the French people as a whole? Do you we need to insult their way of life or makes sterotypical jokes such as the semi-gay guy with a beret sipping wine? Is it that hurtful though? I doubt its a tragedy, When someone makes jokes that relate to you I bet you would feel much different (frenchie). I mean what if someone was making a joke in school about people with down syndrome and a family member of yours had it I am sure you would care alot more then someone else non related to the issue.

Frenchie you said 100% germanic blood, are you originally from Germany?

[Whitehall]

So the British offered a compromise measure to the UN Security Council.

According to a White House spokesman \"France had rejected the latest British proposals even before Iraq did.

\"If that\'s not an unreasonable veto, what is?\" he said.




That does sound a bit fishy, no?

[bundyburger]

<<THE ONLY WAY TO GET SADDAM OUT IS BY FORCE. Is anyone here actually nieve enough to believe that Saddam will just walk away or accept exile???? >>

I\'m sure most people here aren\'t in any way nieve about that. The main problem I have here is what long term effect this will have on the UN. Another thing

What I\'m worried about is all the soldiers who will die. OK. We get rid of Saddam. It costs lives. We get another big terrorist attack anyway ( This is a \"What If\" ). What will be the feelings that families of dead soldiers will get when this measure doesn\'t put a dent in terrorism?? So do we then go and invade the Soudies??

[tallmacky]

Does boycotting french goods seem childish to you?

[bundyburger]

<<Does boycotting french goods seem childish to you? >>

Hadn\'t thought about it like that.
Elana has given her reasons which make more sense. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Boycotting Iraqi goods makes sense. Boycotting child labour and \'sweat-shop\' goods makes sense. Boycotting french goods because they don\'t want war???

[tallmacky]

Elana\'s desposition are just side effects of her infatuation and obessesion with me they will pass.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s important for us to be tolerant of each other\'s consciences in these matters. If someone feels like boycotting whosever stuff is the right thing, then that\'s the right thing for them and maybe we should just say good on you and let it go. With all the people about to die and get hurt, all of us should be extra careful not to hurt each other and to stay friends at least.


Tallmacky, you gotta quit smoking that sh!t, tho. It\'s gone to your brain.

[seadove]

<<<Maybe I\'m the only french human being on this forum, so I feel tons of bad talking on my back... not a nice feeling indeed ! >>>

My dear friend Frenchie
I would like to put in my 2 cents on this subject.As you know I am neither an American, nor a Frenchman.I am what you call a forged Englishman.That is because although I am \"made in the UK\" my heart and soul is with a small problematic country called Israel.
This forum, very fortunately, has a place where you can put off some steam, in the off topic, and things are said, on and off, sometimes in the positive framework and sometimes negative.Sometimes I like what is said and many times I hate the very way it is said.
But I accept the right of that person to say what he wants to say, and under no curcumstance I \"understand\" as if things are said AGAINST me.
When you say \"tons of bad talking against you\" I can vouch that it is 180 degrees the opposite of what you think.It least with my friends that I PM occasionally.To say the least, and as far as I am concerned I never miss reading your posts about pheromones , women stuff and other things ,and your opinion on these subjects are very valid and authentic, you being a declared lesbian and an ordinary human being too.
So you\'re wrong.You are very much appreciated and please feel nice about it too.
Chin up and keep on smiling.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img][img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img][img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[frenchie]

Tallmacky : I am alsacian. But I don\'t speak any german and I have always lived near Paris. Deep inside I feel bi-cultural, between germanic and more latin civilisations.
I suppose people are very aggressive on french forums. I never read them, I know we French speak a lot more than we do things :-). I just try to get some info on an event if I want to have an opinion about it.
I was a kid when people were talking of boycotting south african products (Oustpan oranges), because of the apartheid there. The reason for this boycott was right, and direct : the enemy was apartheid.
Today I feel many americans are mistaken on who the enemy is : your enemy is Saddam, not France. Even friends can disagree on any subject and still be friends. I am sometimes shocked by some aspects of american civilisation, but I will try to understand, not boycott american products just because...
see the difference ?

Frenchie

[**DONOTDELETE**]

don\'t worry the USA is about to save the world form an evil dictator. We are going to kill his ass and the world will be a safer place. Everyone can see the USA is the hero they just ares they don\'t have the balls to do it. THIS IS IMPORTANT INFORMATION SO READ THE FOLLOW AND REALIZE WHAT THE FRENCH ARE DOING. China manufacturs a liquid rubber that is used to fuel long range missles that haveintercontinental range. Of cousrse the UN restricts Saddam from having this under the un resolution. Unfortunatly the reality is a french weapons company has brockered this long range rocket fuel for Saddam and its now being stored in Syria. When the USA defeats Saddam the french know the USA will have proof of this. The french are supply Saddam with the fuel he needs to use long range missles to deliver biological and nuclear weapons. thats why the frecnh are agaisnt the war because they know there ass will be in trouble for thi , The french are antiamerican!!!!! ITS obivious they are antiamerican! Anyone with good moral and a logical mind can see this easily!!!!!BOYCOTT FRENCH PRODUCTS!!!! GOD BLESS THE U.S.A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[franki]

So, did Iraq attack the USA with these missiles you are talking about?

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

THOSE WONDERFUL FRENCH

The New York Time’s William Safire writes that France, China and Syria have been supplying Saddam Hussein with the materials he has needed to build long-range missiles. We’re talking about the types of missiles that could be used to deliver chemical, biological and even nuclear weapons. Nutshell version. Hussein needs some fancy rocket fuel. China has the fancy rocket fuel. The U.N. says that Saddam can’t have this rocket fuel. Sooooo. A French weapons broker with active trade relations arranges for a shipment of this fuel from China to Syria. The French broker in Paris monkeys around with the shipping invoices to hide the fact that this is fancy long-rang rocket fuel. Syria receives the fuel and pumps it into some tanker trucks and … you know the rest … it’s on its way to Baghdad.

Another reason the French are siding with Saddam? Their prestige would suffer a bit, wouldn’t it, when we find out that they truly ARE on the other side.

This is courtesy of Neal Boortz

Franki if you wer going to make long range missles what would you do with them. WHY does someone hide that there are making these and as we all know repeatedly break UN sanctions.

I guess he just a nice guy you know making missiles to decorate his house with, lol!

frank man what are you thinking, Anyone who looks at this situatoin with an unbiased opinion can easily realize Saddam plans to do some damage to somebody. Consider that these missiles Saddam had. I want you to think about this, Saddam has obttained long range rocket fuel that the UN told him he could have he has been breaking UN sanctions for over 10 years, over 4300 days. Im sorry you can\'t think in a logical fashion. I feel bad for you but your just not thinking. You don\'t allow criminals to keep obtaining weapons until he commits another crime

[franki]

I am not saying it is right what the French do, I am trying to figure out why those actions you describe are particularly anti-american. These missiles we are talking about at least cannot reach american territory. You are right though, in that the international community (or the USA alone) should do something about it.


Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Whitehall]

What Saddam intends to do is control the world\'s major oil supplies, just like he tried to do by invading Kuwait in 1990.

Once he has long range missiles with nukes or maybe smallpox, he\'ll be able to offer deals that the Saudis or Qatar, or Dubai can\'t refuse.

[EXIT63]

So, did Iraq attack the USA with these missiles you are talking about? ...

They don\'t have to. If they attack Israel, Kuwait, Qatar, Turkey, or any other US ally. It\'s the same as attacking us.

If the N Koreans launch nukes at S Korea, Japan or any of our allies in the region, will they be attacking us? Not directly (aside from our troops in the region). Will we respond? Ofcourse!!! America DOES what needs to be done. We don\'t sit on our asses eating brie and sipping champagne while the world goes to hell.

[MadDoctor]

I can\'t blame Frenchie\'s government at all, and I will continue to happily buy French products.

Here\'s some history on the US\'s position on Iraqi weapons programs and use:
http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A5224 1-2002Dec29&notFound=true
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm

The US and Britain have known since 1995 that Iraq had destroyed all of its WMD, including the nerve gas and anthrax that Bush and Blair keep going on about.
http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/news/articles/iraq/warpedperspective.htm

When Newsweek ran the story last month, a CIA spokesperson said of the report, \"It is incorrect, bogus, wrong, untrue.\" Unfortunately for CIA credibility, photocopies of the original UNSCOM debriefing were leaked to the press 2 days later, and the former head of UNSCOM verified that the photocopies were true and correct.
http://middleeastreference.org.uk/kamel.html

Then physical evidence of the destruction of Iraq\'s WMD surfaced, confirming what we\'d learned in 1995. http://www.bday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1296564-6080-0,00.html

Leaked State Depertment reports say that overthrowing the Iraqi government will not bring democracy to the Middle East.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/2003/03/000402.html

There has never been even the tiniest iota of evidence to tie Iraq to 9/11. The only evidence that Iraq was trying to reestablish a nuclear weapons program (given to the UN by US and British intelligence) was proven to be a forgery. Officials of the government of Niger who supposedly signed the documents were in some cases not even in office at the time of their supposed correspondence. Although US and UK intelligence have yet to say anything about where these documents were crafted, the International Atomic Energy Agency has tactfully avoided the suggestion that we might have forged them ourselves.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/09/1047144870971.html
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-us-iraq-forgery,0,2591983.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

It\'s hard to be sure what to think, though, since the Secretary of Defense has admitted that the government is spreading propaganda and disinformation.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/28631.html
http://www.fair.org/press-releases/osi-followup.html

Why, then, would we want this war? Many of the current administration formed a group called Project for the New American Century in 1997, and started asking for it then. The group, heavily laden with oil company executives, wanted us to permanently occupy Iraq and use it as a base of operations for controlling the remainder of the Middle East. Even friendly governments like Egypt and Saudi Arabia were to be candidates for overthrow. We are to start an age of \"Pax Americana\" (their term, not mine), using our military occupation of the Middle East and its oil to control the rest of the world. Members of this group included Elliot Abrams, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush and Dick Cheney, among others.
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/0902/29bookman.html
http://truthout.org/docs_03/022803A.shtml
http://www.quotes2u.com/archives/012303.htm

This explains why, even though we condoned and assisted Iraq\'s acquisition and use of WMD, and had no qualms with its human rights abuses, we now complain about both. (If we attack without an imminent Iraqi threat to the US, our leaders could be hauled in on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity. International law does not condone non-defensive warfare, so we need a smokescreen.) This explains why, even though one of Bush Sr.\'s proudest moments was the peace accord which installed Arafat, Bush Jr. is now putting a cloud over his own father\'s reputation by suddenly demanding the removal of Arafat after a decade of US acceptance (the PNAC wanted Arafat out). This explains why the government will not give a date for withdrawl from Iraq, why Patriot Act II wants to remove the sunset clauses from Patriot Act I and eliminate our rights permanently, why the last defense budget matched to the penny what PNAC had said they wanted. This explains why the White House has announced a new military policy, allowing for unilateral preemptive attacks, including with nuclear weapons, even though this violates US and international law. It\'s not supposed to end, it\'s supposed to be the beginning of US global domination and empire.

I can\'t blame France, Germany, Russia, China, and scores of other countries for being squeamish about this idea. If I were in their shoes, I\'d be pretty f*cking alarmed by it too.

Attack US allies in the Middle East? Ask the Vice President or the Secretary of Defense about that, they are the ones who seem to be crazy about that idea.

[MadDoctor]

> Attack US allies in the Middle East? Ask the Vice President or the Secretary of Defense about that,
> they are the ones who seem to be crazy about that idea.

Oh, that\'s right, they already admitted that they\'re lying to us. Scratch that idea.