Being Without Pheromones Sucks!

[tallmacky]

MEOW, I don\'t I think I have a comeback from such an excellent performance, you got me on this part.

\"The other thing I observe about men who are stuck on \"she\'s got to be this number or that number\" is that it keeps them safe from having to interact with women. It makes it easy for a guy to eliminate the majority of the female population (most folks mostly being about average) on the grounds that they\'re just not good looking enough for him. If nobody\'s good enough, he\'s spared any performance pressure with regard to not only sex, but intimacy and relationship. Ok, your turn to roar. \"

[bjf]

don\'t forget, a big component of attraction for men is looks. so to be inspired to want someone, i think a women usually has to be \"good looking\" to men. I don\'t think that is a nice thing, i think it is unfair to women, but unfortunately it is the truth. There are a lot of ways that women operate that aren\'t nice things, unfair to men, but the turth is, while all this maybe kinda cruel, it occurs it has an evolutionary foundation. Evolution does not move as fast as society, so there are things that are out of date, but then there are things that we look for that are for our own good.

I have seen some god awful stufff about how women\'s fertality functions with regard to male competition on these Discovery channel shows. It is stuff that I am sure women would think is cruel to their mates, but it is just something that evolution has driven them to do.

There\'s plent of attraction traits women look for that discriminates against me when they are poor indications of the truth. I don\'t like it, but I accept and understand why those traits of attraction are there, and I shouldn\'t be hurt by that.

As for what you said about guys overating there looks -- guys do this constantly. women usually under-rate themselves. I am not just saying this out of my own experience but out of the studies which consistently show this. It is funny, but it is so consistent with the machismo men can have and the insecurities that women can have. As for putting numbers, that is just an indication of how attracted someone is relative to the rest of competition in that population. I really don\'t buy your argument about using it as a excuse to exclude women and therefore not have to step up to the plate.

I would love to be able to look through a women\'s eyes for a day so i could better understand some of the processes of thinking that I don\'t like.

I am sure if you spent a day looking through a man\'s eyes, you would better understand some of the though processes that you do not like. Hell, I don\'t like a lot of them, but it is just the where nature has brought men, so I try not to have the internal struggle and accept it as okay.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I spend most of my time studying the way men think about women. I believe I may be one of the most savvy women you\'ll ever talk to (one of) in that regard. I didn\'t write with any heat in my last post. I don\'t feel any of it is cruel. It amuses me, if anything, how easily men are manipulated be female beauty. There are many ironies inherent in the male/female situation. This is but one of the many. It\'s not a thing to get upset about. It\'s a thing to understand as well as your own proclivities and prejudices will allow you, and then to use that knowledge to maximize your chances for happiness..


To be very truthful with you, and I intend no insult: men are simple compared to women. The things you mostly want are easily provided, and your needs are easy to understand.


The hard part of the equation is the woman. It fascinates me to read the men\'s posts and then talk to the other women to see if they picked up the same things I did. A recent example (and Phantom, I\'m in no way picking on you) - a woman greets a man still wet from her shower and in the course of getting dressed asks him to admire her pussy. CUE. MAKE LOVE TO ME. Completely missed cue. He waits until she\'s completely ready to go out and then tries to visit with her, but they can\'t entertain each other. So she tries the next cue: put on a dirty movie. AH. Now he gets it and they have sex, and it\'s great sex. Why is it great sex? Because she was in the mood for it. She initiated it, three times. By greeting him at the door wet from the shower, cue 1. By asking him to admire her pussy, cue 2. No result, seque to visuals, which never fail to inspire, dirty movie, cue 3. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] Who\'s leading whom? Alpha which?


Women understand each other really well and most of us understand men pretty well. Conversely, men don\'t seem to understand much about women, no matter how hard they try.


So while a woman with average looks might have to expend more effort to make herself attractive to a man, once that is accomplished (which is not difficult, even for an average looking woman - a 5 can easily transform herself to a 7, for example, with judicious application of makeup, hair style, and flattering/revealing clothes), her chances of attracting and then understanding and therefore keeping her man are better than the man\'s chances, because the man has the harder task. He can\'t even figure out what we want to begin with, since it isn\'t all about externals, even initially.

Women have it easier in this game than men do.


I\'m a 6.5 - 7 and consistently throughout my life have been with men at at least 8 and often higher. This rating thing does not present too great an obstacle for any woman to overcome if she knows how to dress and how to conduct herself.


bjf, observe carefully the guys who overrate their own looks and by doing so, overrate the kinds of women who they believe are worthy of their attention, and take careful note about whether they are achieving sex on a regular basis, or even better, a steady girlfriend with whom they\'re sexually satisfied and emotionally comfortable. The average looking guys going for the industry standard model or near model woman has about a snowball\'s chance in hell. He\'s set himself up to fail. I never hear about these guys\' successes above a brief exchange of flirtation. Until he can gear down a notch, it\'s likely those guys remain bachelors or swingers, different girl every week if they\'re actually scoring, but the women don\'t hang around long, usually.

[MadDoctor]

Great post, FTR.

But I know when you said \"men are simple compared to women,\" you really meant \"almost all men.\" It\'s OK, I forgive you. *smooch*

[Watcher]

Those that are laid often are simple those that dont get all confused.

[druid]

there is a guy named gunwitch from ASF and i think he put it best on how to determine what kind of chick a guy can pull in. He says that is a combo of 2 scales. 1st scale is looks, 1-10 pts. 2nd scale is effort, 1-10 pts. You add up both numbers divide by 2 and that is a guys upper capacity. So even if you are a 10 in looks, you have to be a 10 in effort to pull in the 9-10\'s. Because men are expected to initiate. So a 10 who is extremly passive won\'t do very well, a 5. Most guys, especially ones who consider them selves goodlooking won\'t intiaite with a 5. They are thinking about/watching the 9\'s and 10\'s.

There are good reasons men are attarcted to beautiful women -- because beautiful women carry triats of fertilty. Those traits tell a man she will have healthly kids. Besides MEN almost always HAVE to intiate! So he has only one filter to use to decide who he is gonna go for -- LOOKS. I mean I can\'t simply look at a girl and tell about her personilty in a few seconds or look at her and tell if she does anal. Looks are what we HAVE to use. But a guy who approaches a woman displays one very attractive trait to her -- confidence. And the better he looks, well.....

[Phantom]

I think men are attracted to beautiful women because they don\'t want to be seen with the ugly girl, they want 9s or 10s rapped around their arms for they can feel \"Alpha\". It\'s the same way women boast about their boyfriends (if they\'re good looking) they say oh i\'m going out with so and so, oh he\'s so cute, oh look at his abs, oh he has a huge penis. It\'s all about Ego and Self Esteem, they want to feel good about themselves and know that they\'re that good, that they can get 9s and 10s and are better than everyone else.

[bundyburger]

<<Women understand each other really well and most of us understand men pretty well.>>

Bullsh!t... And I mean that nicely. If it can be said nicely. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

Ok, if your talking about \"This is how you attract a man\", then your right. But as a whole. Not true.

Maybe at your age woman understand men better, but if there\'s one thing that pisses me off, it\'s when a woman makes up her mind that she \"KNOWS\" what you are thinking. She can be absolutely wrong, you can tell her that it\'s not the case, yet she\'ll stubbornly stick by this belief that she \"KNOWS\".
It\'s like you all get in a group meeting together and try to figure out this \"great mystery\" as to why a guy said this or did that or acted like this. A girl asks \"Why do guys do that??\" <sob> <sob> ...The result of that meeting is written in the \'minutes\' of the meeting and passed down as fact. And then the guy\'s totally f___d. He could be totally miss-understood, but it don\'t matter. It\'s been decided. You all become experts on men as if there is only one personality type out there.

<<It fascinates me to read the men\'s posts and then talk to the other women to see if they picked up the same things I did.>>

Yeah.. Hey, even I picked it up... So would have Phantom, I\'m sure. But you get so used to women not meaning what they say, and blowing your head off for taking the wrong meaning. Can you blame us for needing a more blatant (read safer) cue?? She want\'s to play games. Fair enough. But you can\'t have both worlds.


FTR your last paragraph is spot on. (And a lot of the rest too, but why disect it all. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img])
Have you seen \"Beautiful Girls\" with Natalie Portman, Rosie O\'Donnell, Timothy Hutton, Matt Dillon, Lauren Holly, Mira Sorvino etc??
Rosie\'s character has an excellent monologue where she go\'s on about \'Real\' women. It\'s a little over the top but it points in the general direction of what\'s correct about men\'s thinking re:\"ideal partners\" or whatever. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

( BTW, Good movie that! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] )

If only we could all read each other minds. Problem solved. We\'d be laughing. ... maybe paranoid. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] LOL but still laughing. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[bjf]

FTR. I did not remember how phantom tried to initiate sex when she showed him her crotch, but a woman will ask a guy about her haircut w/o meaning lets have sex, so why not show how she just shaved? I mean, this is to a guy who has seen here naked before, so I think she may have really just wanted to show off her new shave job. Alot of the women jumped that she wanted to [bad word], I wouldn\'t be so sure.

I agree with you men are simpler then women. Thats because the criteria of finding someone who will stay with the cavewomen after pregnancy, help raise the baby, protect her, bring in the hunt demands a lot more in the process of finding a partner then a caveman just looking to spread his seeds, i.e. a criteria of finding a female who will spread their legs.


Men make like 100,000 sperm a day, while women like 400 eggs in a lifetime. Women can\'t just afford to be choosing anyone. Men can.

I didn\'t think you wrote heat in your last post. I just think that nature is cruel and the way we discriminate against potential partners is cruel.

I was trying to point out why men are so manipulated by female beauty. When we see a beautiful woman, chemicals released in our brain, similar to being high and being hungry, go off. This makes us feel it inside, long for it and love it. It makes the visual experience something you feel inside. Women don\'t get those chemicals released simply from looks.

But this is how males evolved, and looks were deemed to be an important criteria in finding successful female mates with good DNA. A lot of the looks features are actaully indications of child rearing potential and health, as well as a history in their dna of lack of mutations, etc. That is why we like symetry. Then their is what we look for in long term partners: lack of sluttiness, sweet types. This is because before birth control, if these cavemen were going to devote all this time and the rest of their life to raising a child, they wanted to ensure that the genes in the baby were theirs, and they were not raising someone elses baby. The goal in the end after all is passing down your own genes.

As far as the guys who restrict themselves to models, etc, and you said this: \"take careful note about whether they are achieving sex on a regular basis, or even better, a steady girlfriend with whom they\'re sexually satisfied and emotionally comfortable\"

Why do you think that is? It is difficult to get into ANY woman\'s heart. You have to prove yourself and start anew every time you meet a new woman. It is constant and never-ending. This is a long process, and women don\'t just jump at at anyone. So, when you cut yourself off to the top 2 percent of the population and you factor in how careful and selective women are about finding mates, then all of a sudden you are not going to be getting laid that often. If you want sex, yea, you are going to have to reduce your standards to a wider range of women. If one long term partner is more your goal, and you can deal with not getting sex, then this is just a choice you make.

Men don\'t understand women, I\'ll give you that. But women don\'t understand men. Women reduce all men to the simplest male out there. Granted, you have a handle on simple men, but I find myself always being misunderstood initially and labeled as these guys. I think women\'s understanding of men is limited to just one type.

[MadDoctor]

> There are good reasons men are attarcted to beautiful women -- because beautiful women carry triats of fertilty.

More like \"supermodels look like they eat so little that they\'d have irregular periods.\" Secondary sex characteristics speak to the part of us left over from a time when we didn\'t have the analytical ability to tell a male from a female, or to know what to do about it.

I\'m sure that homely people are, on average, around as fertile as gorgeous ones. Something sure keeps those homely genes in the pool.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

MadDoc, I\'m so glad you\'re here.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

We have birth control now. We\'re not having sex to make babies. Many of us don\'t even want children. Many of us make more money than you do. Many of us don\'t need men -- we just like them. We\'re having sex because we feel like it. Which renders a lot of this evolutionary theory moot.

Why do you think she shaved in the first place, bjf?

Apologies if I made you feel slighted.

The women have to hear a lot of talk about what supposedly motivates them -- just thought I\'d put the shoe on the other foot for a change.

Pinches, doesn\'t it?

[bjf]

More like \"supermodels look like they eat so little that they\'d have irregular periods.\" >>>> Studies always show that men like women with more meat on their bones then skinny super models. Probably cause more meat means healthier and better for child rearing. Guys really don\'t fantasize about runway models, just hot regular girls -- you know that

[Elana]

Great post FTR [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[bjf]

FTR -- I feel slighted when women don\'t understnd the instincts we can\'t help.

Plenty of women shave who are not with a partner because they do it for themselves. Just like a women dressing up nice going out isn\'t doing it because she is a slut, she enjoys being a woman and looking beautiful. I am sure you do yourself up at times simply for yourself not anyone else.

I am not saying brith control doesn\'t exist and all this modern stuff doesn\'t exist. That is why I have said evolution hasn\'t caught up with modern society. I am trying to point out to you why men and women are different, and procreation and 100,000 years of evolution has everything to do with it. Our instincts are not going to change overnight just because birth control has been used in the last 1 percent of our existence. Just like women are still going to feel safer around more muscular men then me when I can have a gun nowadays so muscles don\'t apply. We are talking about the origins of our instincts here. What do you think the purpose of attraction is -- ultimately having babies. Whether someone wants babies or not, their attaction to the ooposite sex is tied into the foundation of that cause.


<<The women have to hear a lot of talk about what supposedly motivates them -- just thought I\'d put the shoe on the other foot for a change.
Pinches, doesn\'t it? >>. I am not sure I understand what you are talking about, but I welcome your female perspective in all of this. When I counteract your points, I do so only with the intention of hoping our debate will ultimately lead us to a closer truth. I read what you have to say so I can understand another point of view and I hope you absorb the points that I make before deciding whether to dismiss them or believe in them. Maybe you get a little too competitive when your views are challenged?

[bjf]

Post deleted by bjf

[Phantom]

Instead of doing two posts just edit the last one you did.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sweetie. You\'re preaching to the choir. I do understand the instincts you can\'t help. I\'m not on your case. Relax. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] You\'re not challenging my views. You\'re agreeing with them and backing them up.

I\'d rather make love than war any day. And since you\'re not around to do the former, let\'s take a pass on the later as well, how\'s that?

[cuddlebear]

Rather make love than war .. that\'s what I like ... a woman of piece .. uh, peace ... [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Phantom]

Never pick a fight with a Redhead...they\'ll eat you alive [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I hadn\'t even got my claws out yet.

Being eaten alive by a redhead is not a bad way to go, if you think about it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[cuddlebear]

And that\'s bad? ... I\'ll eat her alive too ... hey turnabout is fair play ... [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[belgareth]

I wouldn\'t have any complaints. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Phantom]

lol you people are hilarious! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

More fun to make each other happy.

[belgareth]

So, redheads are one of my favoritte fantasies. Followed by brunettes, blonds, tall girls, short girls...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Isn\'t that strange, how alike we think?! I love to think about red haired men, too. And blondes and brunets and short men and tall men and hairy men and smooth men and skinny men and teddy bear men and bald men and men with long hair and men with glasses and men without glasses and men in suits and men in jeans and workboots and men. All the men.

No lie, this is the most I\'ve smiled all day.

Thanks for the mood lift. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
smooch!

[Elana]

FTR that\'s sweet [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[belgareth]

Thanks, glad I could brighten your day.