Alpha Female Problem?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Okay, I know this has nothing to really do with pheromones, but since we are talking about power dynamics between sexes, I really feel that I need some advice on something that has been bothering me for a while.

My personality is considered very \"strong\" by people in general. I voice my opinions quite strongly and I can be stubborn. I have a very feminine side, but it isn\'t noticable until people get to know me. My friends describe me as Sandra Bullock in Two Week\'s Notice. So I\'m like a highly educated, sharp tongued and sharp-witted, defensive urban female. Get the picture?

Anyway, I have always envied those highly sexual queen bee type divas who always have (and need) those \"10 men\" who hover around them. At the same time, I have many times felt disrespectful towards them too, becuase I didn\'t see why they needed all that attention--and why they would go out of their way to keep those men around them all the time. However, more often I envied them and felt inadequate about myself as a female. I always saw myself as a nerdy, uptight, intense dork compared to them and I think I used to be a \"wanna-bee\" [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] But I don\'t feel like that anymore and just accept them \"as is\". Yet, their behavior pattern has not changed towards me.

Through repeated experience, I noticed something interesting. These women, who just seemed like they owned the world through all the attention they received from men, tend to NOT like me. I realized that something in me sparks their competetive side and they usually go out of their way to make me feel bad and not attractive (as if I already didn\'t feel like that!). I don\'t get it...why would these queen bee divas who have all the men they want around them go out of their way to be competetive against a woman who is clearly not as sexual as they are, and perhaps not even as charming as they are around men? I am physically attractive, but I tend to scare men off because of my defensive, insecure personality. I recently had a guy who showed interest in me at a party, and his \"best\" female friend came up to me and said that she is \"very protective\" of him and that she would have to approve of the girls he dated. I was like...whatever...

I felt that she was basically telling me to back off, which is what I did because I have no time to deal with weirdos like her. It turns out I was right because the guy later on told me that this girl said something negative about me...when she didn\'t even know anything about me. But interestingly, this is not the first time this has happened. So my question is...

What on earth would be sparking this? If I were like one of these women, I can see how they would feel threatened by me, but based on my \"lack of\" sexual air (thus my purchasing pheromones!) I don\'t get it....any idea?

[TBiRD]

Hmm....I don\'t see a prob at all....

\"My personality is considered very \"strong\" by people in general. I voice my opinions quite strongly and I can be stubborn. I have a very feminine side, but it isn\'t noticable until people get to know me. My friends describe me as Sandra Bullock in Two Week\'s Notice. So I\'m like a highly educated, sharp tongued and sharp-witted, defensive urban female. Get the picture? \"

Seems to me , that you know yourself quite well. This is your advantage , cos you know what to change or adjust for the better. Just try to be less stubborn and show your feminine side more often , so people can see the real YOU.


\"Anyway, I have always envied those highly sexual queen bee type divas who always have (and need) those \"10 men\" who hover around them. At the same time, I have many times felt disrespectful towards them too, becuase I didn\'t see why they needed all that attention--and why they would go out of their way to keep those men around them all the time. However, more often I envied them and felt inadequate about myself as a female. I always saw myself as a nerdy, uptight, intense dork compared to them and I think I used to be a \"wanna-bee\" But I don\'t feel like that anymore and just accept them \"as is\". Yet, their behavior pattern has not changed towards me. \"


Why on earth , do you spend your valuable time thinking bout those sluts. Look ! THEY are nerdy, uptight, intense , dork-like , pathetic , stuck up H0\'s , NOT YOU ! So forget \'em , trigger \"ignore mode\" and thats it.

\"...and I think I used to be a \"wanna-bee\" But I don\'t feel like that anymore and just accept them \"as is\". Yet, their behavior pattern has not changed towards me. \"

If you can\'t ignore them , fight back......Give them a taste of your \"highly educated, sharp tongued and sharp-witted\" Kun-Fu !

\"I am physically attractive, but I tend to scare men off because of my defensive, insecure personality. I recently had a guy who showed interest in me at a party, and his \"best\" female friend came up to me and said that she is \"very protective\" of him and that she would have to approve of the girls he dated. I was like...whatever... \"


Aight , this was a mistake. Instead of backing off (thus taking the easy way out) you should have fought for this guy. The guy obviously found you very attractive (Vuola - there\'s your confidence boost!) So why not stand up to his girl friend and tell her , that being the \"greedy bitch\" she is , she has no right whatsoever to talk to you like that.

Hmm , If I give this a second thought , maybe backing-off wasn\'t that wrong. The guy is abviously a spineless whimp , cos he actually allows a friend to decide what girl to choose.
Anyways...it\'s still better to fight for your right to party than backing off , like a beaten dog.

\"What on earth would be sparking this? If I were like one of these women, I can see how they would feel threatened by me, but based on my \"lack of\" sexual air (thus my purchasing pheromones!) I don\'t get it....any idea? \"


Hehehe....your natural pheromone-offset might suck a little...but I\'m very sure , that this CAN and WILL be cured with lotsa -nol [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

SO just use the mones , along with a \"Tony Montana kind of attitude\" and show them H0\'s who da real Alpha is [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]


GooD LuCK

[Elana]

<<At the same time, I have many times felt disrespectful towards them too, becuase I didn\'t see why they needed all that attention--and why they would go out of their way to keep those men around them all the time>>

Maybe they can sense that you don\'t have any respect for them, so the feeling is mutual. I\'m not really sure why you would even be the slightest bit concerned about the attention that other women are receiving. You are not happy about the fact that people are incorrectly judging you, but it appears you are doing the same thing.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t know if you\'ll be able to use this advice, but maybe in the name of science [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] you could try it a time or two ... generally, the way to get into the group is to be a little submissive. Find something to compliment the other women about -- the more feminine the thing, the better, e.g., \"that\'s a great lipstick on you,\" \"I love those shoes, where did you get them?\" \"who does your hair?\". If at a party, ask the hostess if you can help with anything. If another woman in a group speaks, even if you disagree with her, don\'t criticize her in public, especially don\'t one up her in front of guys, and if someone asks you point blank what your opinion is, acknowledge hers before you disagree and be gentle in your disagreement. In other words, show that you want in, and that you want to be accepted. Usually there will be an alpha in the pack who will vote that you be given a chance, at least.


In the case of the woman who was guarding the guy you liked, my strategy would have been to say to her that if that\'s the case, I really hoped for her approval because he seems like such a great guy. Do you see what a bitch it would make her feel like or look like to be cold to you after you showed vulnerability? It\'s easy to reject someone if they have the attitude of \"I don\'t care what you think, screw you anyway, who do you think you are.\" Not so easy if they say \"I wish you liked me.\"


I think the Queen Bees around you sense your envy as disapproval, is all. If you express it honestly as envy, they\'re more likely to help you than shun you. What if you openly said to one of these women, \"I don\'t understand how you do it. I wish I could. Give me some tips.\" You put her in a power position - asking a favor puts someone in a power position - and you stroke her ego. I think most women are likely to try to help when approached like that. I had a woman friend for about 10 years who maybe is a little like you. She didn\'t get much attention from her mother and said she envied little girls whose mothers dressed them pretty and spent time on their hair and taught them how to paint their nails, etc., and said she could never get along with other women, all her life. She actively rejected anything feminine, she\'s say it was \"frou-frou.\" This is a female attorney I used to work for. Somehow I got her to a perfume store with me and that started breaking the ice (she swore she couldn\'t stand perfume, it was \"frou-frou\" and it all gave her a headache and she couldn\'t be bothered, and I bet her I could find one she\'d like, so she went with me on a bet, and I won (we both won))-- we went from developing an interest in perfume, to jewelry, to clothes, to lingerie ... along the way as she started to trust me, her story came out about her feelings of inadequacy as a woman. We ALL feel that way -- our thighs are too this, our hair is too that, our whatever is not whatever enough -- even the Queen Bee divas feel that way. Part of female bonding is sharing secrets about your inner self, revealing your worries, and then reinforcing each other against them by helping, even if it\'s just make up tips or doing lunch and making time to talk -- and sharing. The main characteristic of the woman I was talking about was that she didn\'t share. She was so bent on showing everyone that she was better than because she felt so NOT better than, that she misered everything.


I wouldn\'t listen to the guys on this, all respect to the guys and I\'m sure they\'ll give the best advice they know -- but women in a group tend to respect cooperation and facilitation of each other\'s efforts, whereas guys tend to compete for dominance. The more you try to emphasize that you\'re different/stronger/better and that you don\'t care for the women\'s approval, the more likely you are to be ostrasized. You can generally get pretty far if you make an extra effort to be nice, show a little vulnerability, and to openly seek approval. If it kills you. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Elana]

Brilliant advice FTR.

Shhhhhhhh the truth is, I don\'t really care for her advice, but I am placating her so that she will continue to like me.

Obviously I am joking. I absolutely agree with what Renee said. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Bitch! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]


I mean that in the nicest possible way ...

[Elana]

<<<Why on earth , do you spend your valuable time thinking bout those sluts. Look ! THEY are nerdy, uptight, intense , dork-like , pathetic , stuck up H0\'s , NOT YOU ! So forget \'em , trigger \"ignore mode\" and thats it.>>>

TBird- What is your problem with confident, pretty, outgoing women?

[TBiRD]

Excuse me FTR , but I have to disagree [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

\"I don\'t know if you\'ll be able to use this advice, but maybe in the name of science you could try it a time or two ... generally, the way to get into the group is to be a little submissive. Find something to compliment the other women about -- the more feminine the thing, the better, i.e., \"that\'s a great lipstick on you,\" \"I love those shoes, where did you get them?\" \"who does your hair?\". If at a party, ask the hostess if you can help with anything. If another woman in a group speaks, even if you disagree with her, don\'t criticize her in public, especially don\'t one up her in front of guys, and if someone asks you point blank what your opinion is, acknowledge hers before you disagree and be gentle in your disagreement. In other words, show that you want in\"

In other words , you just told her to behave like a spine-less ass kisser ! How is that supposed to help her ?
As far as I understood it : She doesn\'t want to be friends with the QueenBeeZ....Because of those BeeZ , she \'s having a hard time picking up men.

She also said : My personality is considered very \"strong\" by people in general. I voice my opinions quite strongly and I can be stubborn. I have a very feminine side, but it isn\'t noticable until people get to know me. So I\'m like a highly educated, sharp tongued and sharp-witted, defensive urban female.\"


Running around \"fake-flattering\" \"ass-kissing\" other women would be completly against her charakter/nature.
How is that supposed to get her a decent man.
And I don\'t believe that all female friendship is based upon telling each other lies. Complementing , where theres is nothing to compliment on / agree to anything the group says (freedom of speech??hugh?? )

Worst of all :

\"In the case of the woman who was guarding the guy you liked, my strategy would have been to say to her that if that\'s the case, I really hoped for her approval because he seems like such a great guy. Do you see what a bitch it would make her feel like or look like to be cold to you after you showed vulnerability\"

This wouldn\'t make her feel guilty at all. In fact by doing it this way , you would show weakness. And if you are weak you are open for even more attacks. The protective girl will be like : \"Aaah , so she\'s acting submissive....Great ! I win , she looses ! There she is on her knees , begging me to decide... lets tease her some more...\"

Btw , I would never change my true-self into a submissive/greasy/slimy alter-ego for nobody.

[Elana]

FTR didn\'t tell her to lie. She told her to look for the good in someone and then tell them. What is wrong with being a nice person? That certainly doesn\'t make you fake or spineless. It makes you the type of person that people feel good around.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

TBird, I tell you what. I wish you\'d butt out of this one and let the ladies talk amongst themselves. This entitles you to one \"Butt out FTR\" in return whenever you want to use it. Deal?

[TBiRD]

<<<Why on earth , do you spend your valuable time thinking bout those sluts. Look ! THEY are nerdy, uptight, intense , dork-like , pathetic , stuck up H0\'s , NOT YOU ! So forget \'em , trigger \"ignore mode\" and thats it.>>>

TBird- What is your problem with confident, pretty, outgoing women?

Dear Elana [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

I don\'t have any problems with nice chicks at all....or as u put it \"confident, pretty, outgoing women?\"

However, the women we are talking about here are Bitches.
Plain and simple : Eventhough they get all the men they want , they still give Puchi a hard time when she trys to hook up with a man. For no damn other reason , but GREED and JEALOUSY , wich is a \"bitch\" behaviour in my humble opinion.

I hope I\'m not to wrong....would be good if Puchi came back and actually said what she wanted to clear things up...Is it a decent man. Or is it just satisfaction of her need to impress other women.

[Elana]

<<However, the women we are talking about here are Bitches.>>

<<<As far as I understood it : She doesn\'t want to be friends with the QueenBeeZ....Because of those BeeZ , she \'s having a hard time picking up men. >>>>


When did she say that these women were bitches? What would make them bitches? How are these women keeping her from getting men? What do these women have to do with her ability to get a man interested in her?

[TBiRD]

\"TBird, I tell you what. I wish you\'d butt out of this one and let the ladies talk amongst themselves. This entitles you to one \"Butt out FTR\" in return whenever you want to use it. Deal?

No way Baby , I can\'t sit and watch you manipulating a nice girl into a living fake ! (kinda joking)
But hey , lets just wait till she comes back and says what she wants , If Im wrong I\'ll pull out and will not ever click the Women Forum again [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

On the otherhand I think its always good to have lots of opinions ...be it a male or a female one.....

No offense girl !

[**DONOTDELETE**]

TBird, she\'s not trying to IMPRESS other women. She\'s trying to be accepted by other women and enjoy the warmth of female friendships. The woman blocking her from the guy was use as an example of how much other women instinctively don\'t take to her. It\'s not about competition, impressing, or getting guys. She was very clear about what she wanted to begin with. It\'s a girl thing. Do you have a lot of experience or expertise in girl/girl friendships? I\'m not asking at all that you butt out of the women\'s forum - I don\'t have that right. Just maybe lay off this one thread so the women can talk to each other without having to argue with you. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[TBiRD]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] getting a headache...well here we go again
Dear Elana :

\"When did she say that these women were bitches? What would make them bitches? How are these women keeping her from getting men? What do these women have to do with her ability to get a man interested in her?\"

At first she envied them :
\"Anyway, I have always envied those highly sexual queen bee type divas who always have (and need) those \"10 men\" who hover around them. At the same time, I have many times felt disrespectful towards them too, becuase I didn\'t see why they needed all that attention\"

Then it turned into anger / sadness / hatred , cos they made her feel bad about herself. \"However, more often I envied them and felt inadequate about myself as a female.\"

And the Tip of the Iceberg is the protective girlfriend, that successfully managed to sabotage the thing Puchy had goin on with that guy.

So elana , you seriously wouldn\'t call women like that bitches ? Women who steal away men they don\'t need / and on top of that make u feel like you are worthless.

[Elana]

OMG!!!! You can\'t be serious!!!! She is (or was) insecure because of these beautiful women, and that makes THEM bitches????? She envied them because men like to be around them, and that makes them bitches?? Please tell me you are not serious. The one girl that \"interviewed\" her may have been a bit of a jerk, but don\'t even tell me that you think we should blame other people for our own insecurities.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think she posted in the women\'s forum so she could talk to other women. Otherwise, being the very smart girl she is, she could have posted in Off Topics. ...


It doesn\'t help anything to say those women are bitches, I\'m better than that, I don\'t need them, which is what you\'re telling her to do. That will only get her more of what she\'s already getting, which is what she does not want.


The woman protecting her guy friend was doing what women do. We protect and nurture. That\'s not being a bitch, necessarily. We do it for each other and we do it for guys we consider our friends.

[Elana]

<<<The woman protecting her guy friend was doing what women do. We protect and nurture. That\'s not being a bitch, necessarily. We do it for each other and we do it for guys we consider our friends>>>>

That\'s true. She probably meant no harm. It really wouldn\'t have put me off. I would have taken it as an opportunity to shine.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So, Elana, what would you have said, or how would you have handled the situation?

[Elana]

I would have asked her questions about the guy. It would give me the opportunity to chat with her, show her that I am interested in getting to know this guy and most importantly....get the dirt on the guy. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[bivonic]

\"What on earth would be sparking this? If I were like one of these women, I can see how they would feel threatened by me, but based on my \"lack of\" sexual air (thus my purchasing pheromones!) I don\'t get it....any idea?\"

That\'s where they draw their power, by belittling people like you. I used to have a friend that was like that, imagine having a power-hungry friend, I could not take it any more & have broken off ties with him. I would not take it personally if I were you. As far as being the Alpha-fem, just lighten up on the stubborness, not sure if you can teach yourself to be more open, but try reviewing your actions when you do not get the reaction you were hoping from a man & try to change your approach, or I guess from a fem\'s p.o.v. your response next time. Just like anything else, trial & error - and just ignore the divas, you don\'t need their acceptance, they need yours.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Elana, that\'s exactly what I would have done, too. Something along the lines of, \"He must be as special as I suspected, for you to like him that much. Where did you two meet? Have you known him long? Did you know his last girlfriend?\" etc etc etc.


And p.s. \"those are great shoes, where do you shop?\" [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey, Puchi - there\'s such a good article in the February issue of Allure, called \"The Road to Rapture.\" If you want to pm me a fax number, I\'d love to send it to you.

Did you say what pheromones you\'ve ordered or are using?

Also I wonder if, as a sort of oblique approach, you have the time/funds for regular massage, even 1/2 hour a week, but an hour, better, specifically, from a female massage therapist.

Glad you wrote, hope something in here helps.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Elana: \"I would have asked her questions about the guy. It would give me the opportunity to chat with her, show her that I am interested in getting to know this guy and most importantly....get the dirt on the guy\"

That\'s actually what I did. And she threw out that comment to me about how protective she is. So you figure...I do think she is a bitch.

This was really helpful and I appreciate everybody\'s input. One thing, sadly, is that TBird is right on and I have to say, FTR and Elana, you guys were a bit off about what my problem was. I\'m actually surprised at HOW right on TBird was about the situation.

FTR, I actually have many good female friends. It\'s not that I need these females around me. Actually, whenever I do get to befriend one of these queen bees, yes, I humble myself to \"learn\" their method and actually say nice things to them. Like...wow, how DO you get all these men to buy you drinks? Please tell me. I don\'t lie, or create situations where I NEED to kiss up to them. I would never say good things about their appearance unless I truly feel that they look great. I\'m a no BS type of person and most of my friends appreciate me for that. When I did show vulnerability to them, they stepped all over me and truly crushed me on many many levels.

That\'s why I posted my question in the first place. I\'m a really friendly person and people say that they always feel happy and comfortable around me. I hide most of my sexuality so I know that I don\'t threaten women at all. Just because I have a strong personality doesn\'t mean that I don\'t have friends. It\'s only difficult for \"men\" to approach me...not women. Well, I take that back, it\'s only difficult for men I\'m interested in to approach me because I\'m uptight and rigid around them. But for most men, I\'ve been called the \"coolest chick\" to hang out with. Get the picture? That\'s why I was troubled to see why these queen bee type women would not be nice to me (in fact go out of their ways to NOT be nice). These women do not respect other women and they actually don\'t even care. They have no empathy, sympathy, or even morals towards others.

All I was wondering was...what about me would spark this in them? Just because I thought that it would be nice to have at least ONE guy around me to behave like those 10 guys around these women shouldn\'t make me a competition for them either. Or does it?

One episode...I went to a party once with a female friend (she\'s not really a queen bee, but gets a lot of attention from guys) and literally 28 out of 30 men were hovering around her. I was like...damn. But by the end of the night, there was one guy who talked to me and then suddenly touched my face, which made me feel a bit awkward. He did this in front of my friend, which made me feel even weirder because I\'m not the public display of affection type person. Anyway, to diffuse my embarassement, I joked to my friend, \"what was that all about? haha\" and she replied annoyingly, \"What do you mean? That\'s what guys normally do when they say good-bye!\" which I know was total BS. Also, she wasn\'t even interested in this guy, so I really didn\'t know why she was reacting that way. But later, after pondering about it more, I felt that some women just need EVERY freaking guy to be head over heels with her...and since I\'m not like that...I really don\'t get why I should be their targets. The funny thing is...these women don\'t do this to every woman around them...but somehow I get caught in their radar...Why on earth??? Hmmm....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

No idea. Talk to TBird. You and he seem to be on the same wavelength. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

TBird - all respect, and my apologies.

P.S. I don\'t advocate flattery and ass kissing. I can usually find at least one thing to sincerely compliment someone else about, and I\'ve found that saying it aloud rather than just thinking it to myself has helped me in my life. I\'ve never had the kinds of problems with other women that you\'re describing.

[Lucky]

Puchi,
It\'s hard to like some people. Period.
Here are some reasons why:
(snipped)
- I voice my opinions quite strongly and I can be stubborn.
- sharp tongued and defensive
- I have many times felt disrespectful towards them too, becuase I didn\'t see why they needed all that attention--and why they would go out of their way to keep those men around them all the time
- accept them \"as is\"
- I tend to scare men off because of my defensive, insecure personality

The Queen Bees aren\'t threatened by you at all. They just don\'t like you...consider the reasons above. It\'s surprising that you have any friends at all. I take exception to your comment about the Queen Bees \"needing\" men. They don\'t need men, they just like them and want them. It\'s called \"natural\" in some circles. Don\'t consider the Bees weak, you might be shocked that some of them are just as strong, smart, and educated as you. In fact, they are smart enough to get what YOU want.

Imagine that?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Lucky.


I love you real big.


[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Elana]

Lucky-That one is right on the money

[Lucky]

FTR,
I can\'t understand how somebody can be a bitch and claim they are victimized. Pheromones will never help her.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

She\'s just so alpha.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

Was I suckered or what? That was fukkin\' beautiful. LOL