DHEA-S Need to Knows

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks for the additional information, MAL224610!

[marv14yag]

Lower than that of most people....Also, you are not doing powerlifting....I should have said POWERLIFTERS...Nevetheless, it is TRUE, they have lower teosterone, perhaps not so much for bodybuilders as they do little that releases testosterone, HOWEVER chances are your skinny friend over there (point to chicken legs beside you) will have higher testosterone than you.

This also would explain why my brother thinks he\'s so BIG AND BAD around me, even though I kick his ass when he thinks he can whoop me...

lIfting weights releases tesosterone....Testostesrone must be built back up...

Powerlifting releases the most.

That\'s not tha BAD THING...

It works in the same principal as masterbation and how it keeps you strong (it does, literally)

A release of testosterone, means it has to be built back up....Which, it does.

However, chicken legs over here never has to build anything back up, their body never produces more...It just stays at a level, and so does their muscles.

But, yeah, it\'s true, less testosterone.

That\'s PROBABLY also why, if you do not lift weights, and ere to take steroids it would REALLY f** you up, I have heard about EXTREME water gains, just a bunch of stuff...

I think that powerlifters/bodybuilders should LIFT, get their test mesured, it will be lower, and than MAXIMIZE it by putting it back to HIGH-NORMAL with androgens, testosterone replacement so that it will be maximized.

This is basically what I do by taking DHEA, no EXTRA will be there, however, because I lift the body has the extra test it needed stored in the form of DHEA-S.

Normal, however, if you stopped lifting I guarantee you it\'d go up into high-normal.

Bart

[Watcher]

Thanks for the extra info marv14yag

[MAL224610]

Yes Powerlifters can have Lower test levels, but its not what you think. Powerlifters tend to carry more fat, remember fat is a source of aromatase(the enzyme that converts the test to estro).

As for Masterbation the entire community is still out on this one, studies go both ways or stay normal.

Its not true about not exercising and roids, as a matter of fact there are tons of men in their 30\'s and up using Test to boost low levels to mid-normal.

You have to look at what hormones you are using.
Straight Testosterone or any aromatizable steroid can convert to Estrogen(Estrogen being the source of things like water weight, and gyno). DHT(which many Bodybuilders use to treat both gyno, and to lean out)(is androgenic, and slightly anabolic, blocks estrogen at its receptor, and is associated with male pattern baldness and prostate sensitive), then you have a slew of others that stimulate natural test, block estrogen, block aromatase, burn fat. Its a science, you can read 1000 page books solely on Steroid Biochemistry. Its quite the fascinating subject, and holds the future of psychiatry in its hands.

Now DHEA has other uses, and I am currently trying to get the articles published(journal of endocrinology, etc.)

I take the stance, if you want to reach a goal. You can take steps, but do the research first.

The only thing about DHEA-S is that it appears so be a set level never going higher. So that in any 7-10 hour period its cycles never exceed its peaks or troughs(indicating sensitive feedback loops involved elsewheres in the body).

Just in case, Fish Oil contains DHA(not DHEA)

Marv you hit the nail on the head as to why bodybuilder/powerlifters do use. The fact that these steroids maintain levels for days on end means mucho muscle can be built

Mike

[Wolfe]

smallest doseage i\'ve found locally is 25mg, if i cut them in 1/2 and get bout 12.5 i should be ok at my age(on the prostate part) shouldnt i?

i also supplement with
MSM=500mg
Glucosamine=500mg
Saw Palmetto=950mg
thats besides my multi-vit/diet supp(untra vita man from vit world)

[marv14yag]

First of all, not all powerlifters are heavyweights...

Second, I believe that the REASON the studies would ever go negative on masterbation is JUST because what I said...Releases testosterone, however, an hour after you will have less, they see that, and see it as bad. However it is not, because you will build back up tesosteorne, like when you don\'t cut your hair in a while, and it doesn\'t grow fast, but when you first cut it, it grows really fast.

Ditto with the powerlfiting. In fact, that\'s why squats can make your WHOLE BODY BIGGER! Not just the legs, becasue they release testosterone, which, first of all, a sudden burst of testosterone signals muscles protein synthesis, even though it DOES drop afterwards.

Anyway, it\'s a fact, you lift, etc....Teosterone is released and levels are lower a awhile after...That\'s pretty much a fact.

My point was....All the bodybuilders using mega high doses...I believe you should just get them checked and if they aren\'t high normal (because of WHATEVER...Be it lifting masterbatoin, whatever...) take the testosterone enthanates, whatever gets the job done to raise it back up.

Perhaps the reason why xlv\'s, or whatever his name is is norrmal is because a. He doesn\'t lift heavy, ie, focusing on smaller movements with single muscles, as most bodybuilders tend to do, rather than squats, bench, etc almost exclusively...Or, perhaps he has been able to produce the testosterone back fast enough. OR PERHAPS if he had not lifted at all they would not be just normal but high normal.

My point was...I think you should take, and I take DHEA to maximize them...I mean, AS YOU SAID, the DHEA-S can never go past a point...Which is good. You take the DHEA, so that when they DO GO LOWER ie, lifting, stress, cortizol, etc...They will go back up faster, making you stronger/bigger, etc.

Just what you said about that DHEA-S can never go past a point would negate xlv\'s negative ideas on them, ie, side effects.

If you can\'t overdose, how can there be side effects? OTHER that would have NORMALLY be present....Remember, some people get gyno etc, in their teens, etc automaticaly....It\'s genetics.

That\'s JUST LIKE the you will go bald with steroids...Maybe, but only if you were already going to go bald beforehand. It\'s the hairs that are DHT resistant that do not fall out, ie, on the sides and the back of the head.

Anyway...I think I said it all..

Anyway, about the glucosamine and the chondroitin...That\'s some good stuff.

I get very little pain now, wwhich before would be so bad that I couldn\'t lift. ESPECIALLY with cleans! That and any behind the back, or heavy squats, etc...Now, pain free baby! Not just that, but I\'m supposing building stronger joints will allow to give me the ability to handle more weight.

Bart

[MAL224610]

If you can deal with the measuring scoop given, or can get a scale sensitive into the mg. Then you can try www.beyond-a-century.com they have DHEA Powder. What you should keep in mind if you have a prostate probelm and are taking things like proscar, or natural supplements. These supress androgen production, which can result in gyno(gyno can result from either too much estrogen, increased estrogen sensitivity, or decreased androgen to estrogen ratio). So these are things to also keep in mind when using DHEA.

I am in the process of trying to get published on an article for DHEA and an unknown intresting side effect(not related to pheromones to let you know now). If you guys want, I will see what I can do about getting a copy posted on the forums.

Mike

[MAL224610]

Marv, the below is regarding general molecular pharmacology/endocrinology.

Exercise does not directly cause the release of testosterone, now hold up before you jump on this. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying that the way you are saying it is mis-conveying the process.

Testosterone is produce by the Leydig cells under the influence(and only under the influence) of Luteinizng Hormone((LH) or Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin(binds to the same receptor and is chorionic horomone found in the urine of pregnant women). By activating the leydig cells you cause cholesterol to cross the membrane and the process of producing steroids.
Now this might be where you are confused, and where I am failing to convey what I am saying.

There are several Feedback loops, and inhibitors of testosterone production. All working in a homeostasis controlling production of hormones. One of these feedback loops is Estrogen, estrogen signals the Hypothalamus-pituitary that \"TOO MUCH\" estrogen is circulating stop releasing LH. Now for the little known part(if you are not in steroid biochemistry you wouldn\'t know this.) Testosterone itself blocks the production of testosterone, so as levels go up it also blocks the crossing of cholesterol transmembrane thereby acting as a shield(inhibiting production). Then there are other feedback loops, which is where I do the bulk of my research, involving other systems of the body.

So what does all this mean?

Bottom line in order for Natural Test to go up something has to go down, and yes you can drop Estrogen and get closer to your physical set point(but not to cause an increase from motion). You can lower the response of the other feedback loops, but still you have one last MECHANICAL mechanism standing in the way. Testosterone itself.

So the only way to get a boost from exercise is from something to go down. That is Test itself, now there is a group of neurochemicals/hormones that DO go up during workout. Catecholamines(Noradrenalin, Adrenalin, and possibly dopamine/serotonin respectively.) As well as Endorphins. The reason I remain adamant about refering to this process in this order is that it really clears up misconceptions that many lifters get in the gym.

Exercising results in Testosterone increase following strenuous exercise.

Now as for DHEA taking more is not correct even if I SAID that DHEA-S DOES NOT exceed a physiological set point. Something has to happen to the DHEA. Remember its still a cholesterol metabolite, and T precursor. It can also be converted to Androstenedione. Like Andro if its not being used for T production it aromatizes to Estrone(form of estrogen). So yes you can still overdose, nothing in the human body is cut and dry. Also, Just like Androgen Metabolism at the Test level, DHEA has feedback loops too(involving ACTH). Its a beautiful machine, with intracacies as vast as space. New fields are discovered daily, as well as new ways to look at old science.

I agree I think most men should utilize DHEA. In smaller doses if not needed. There is a completely other reason that I discovered while researching enzymatic pathways, and I am working on getting it published.


No for masterbation....remember I said multiple studies showed effects in both directions, negative, and positive. As well as no effect at all. This generally means that it is unrelated, but cannot be proven either way at this time.

The me will not go bald, the ME is not DHT senstive.

You are 100% right, you should get bloodwork done. All men should in there 20\'s especially. There is a male menopause, and it occurs over a vast amout of time, as compared to women.(in some case studies I have seen, maladies have caused early andropause in men too).

Mike

[CptKipling]

Thank you for that Mike, a very usefull post.

[xvs]

yes, please post.

would love to see your research results!

[DrSmellThis]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uid s=12508905&dopt=Abstract

[Mtnjim]

I\'ve been taking DHEA for the past couple of months (over 50).
I just noticed two things over the past week. First what used to be OK applications of ~none for me have become OD\'s, I\'ve had to cut way back. Secondly, I\'ve had a moustache for several years that has beem white. Last December, I started a ghoatee and it came out white. A couple of days ago, I noticed that there were a lot of dark hairs growing in replacing the white ones. DHEA? or is the clock running backward?

[Wolfe]

Bel has told me he is experiancing same thing, beard turning darker
he\'s been on 25 mg and said he noticed a change after a month(bout)

[Mtnjim]

Looks like 25mg is about right. Just gotta\' watch the lowering OD levels.

[BassMan]

I\'m also cycling DHEA, and my beard and eyebrows (the only hair on my head) are turning darker after being close to snow white for several years.

[Mtnjim]

It was only on my face that turned white, head, pits, and other places only had 1 or 2 gray hairs. Now the face seems to be darkening to match.

[DrSmellThis]

If you spell DHEA sideways you get HEAD. Nice.

[CptKipling]

I don\'t get it

[DrSmellThis]

That sucks.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Just like a guy. Always looking to get a head.

[Lucky]

Great post.

Would an increased basal metabolic rate created by eating small meals throughout the day cause a continuous lowering of the levels of testosterone?

[Mtnjim]

I wouldn\'t mind getting behind ;~}

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[marv14yag]

No, in fact, it would be just the opposite, tesosterone levels would INCREASE. Big meals = bad. Bodybuilders eat anywhere from 6-8 meals a day.

Bart

[CptKipling]

Doc you crack me up

[MAL224610]

You pose a really good question, one that has yet to be tested. How do small frequent meals interact with serum (total/free) testosterone, LH , FSH, and DHEA-S.

I can pose theories on this, but no one will be able to give you a solid answer at this time.

Eating more frequently, in small amounts is beneficial in more ways than one. First you have an increased absorption rate for milk and wheat proteins(including whey). How does this benefit you? Well essentially the higher rate of protein absorption means there are more building blocks for; muscle, Biogenic Amines(Serotonin, Dopamine, Catecholamines(norepi,epi), etc.), thyroid hormone. Second, you allow for maintanance of metabolic rate througout the day. Maintaining metabolism is the name of the game in everything you do, because when you want to make a change(be it weight loss, or building muscle) it will be much easier if you are running a more efficient ship. Third, and most important, reduction of circulating insulin levels.

The Third aspect in increased meal frequency is where there might be a real interaction with testosterone levels. When metformin was administered in a study these were the results:
Decreased Total Testosterone, Decreased Free Testosterone, Increased Sex Hormone Binding Globulin ( free test being the active form, and SHBG reduces free test), Increased DHEA-Sulfate. Metformin is an insulin medication. Essentially excess insulin reduces serum androgens. So one could assume that from this study that by improving the amount of insulin being released can improve serum androgens. Since all pheromones are 5alpha 16-androstenes(5alpha is a part of Dihydrotestosterone metabolism). You Lower the Precursor Testosterone, you decrease your mean pheromones, and if estrogen levels go up you could suffer from mild estrogen related side effects.

Again this is all theoretical, and there is no study to prove either way. However, This is what I think.

Mike

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Does the third aspect have anything to do with one effect of diabetes can be impotence?

[MAL224610]

It does make sense that this could be the cause, but remember that diabetes effects more than just insulin Levels, you have increased infections. Which are treated by antibiotics, which can also lower serum androgens as well.

Chemical causes of erects are as vast as the number of women on the earth. For one we know that prostaglandins play a role, and an injection can cause a major erection. (Pripasim requiring surgical let down, and is soooo painful.)...Estrogen plays a role, as does DHT. Phosphodiesterase-5 inhibition(viagra) increases the effects of NO(relaxation of smooth tissue allowing for increased inflow of blood into corpus cavernosum). I did alot of research back about 5 years ago on ways of increasing NO both neural and endothelial via natural solutions. It worked quite well for increasing the amount of wood for the fire so to speak. These are just a few ways to stimulate an erection, I am quite sure there are many more. There is also penile vascular health(damage a willy vein, and the south will not rise again.)

Mike

[marv14yag]

You can also do PC (pycocogeus) flexes in order to increase the width and bloodflow down there. You will also be able to hold out longer. Impress your special lady with that?

lol

Bart

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The parenthetical in your last sentence cracked me up.

What I don\'t get whenever the guys start talking about ways to increase testosterone is why the progesterone in your body doesn\'t just even it all out.