Bomb Iraq

[franki]

Quote from unknown:
\"

Sung to the tune: \"If You\'re Happy And You Know It, Clap Your Hands\"

If we cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets hurt your Mama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are Saudi
And the bank takes back your Audi
And the TV shows are bawdy,
Bomb Iraq.

If the corporate scandals growin\', bomb Iraq.
And your ties to them are showin\', bomb Iraq.
If the smoking gun ain\'t smokin\'
We don\'t care, and we\'re not jokin\'.
That Saddam will soon be croakin\',
Bomb Iraq.

Even if we have no allies, bomb Iraq.
From the sand dunes to the valleys, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections;
Let\'s look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.

While the globe is slowly warming, bomb Iraq.
Yay! the clouds of war are storming, bomb Iraq.
If the ozone hole is growing,
Some things we prefer not knowing.
(Though our ignorance is showing),
Bomb Iraq.

So here\'s one for dear! old daddy, bomb Iraq,
From his favorite little laddy, bomb Iraq.
Saying \'no\' would look like treason.
It\'s the Hussein hunting season.
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq.

\"

[seadove]

Hey Franki

I am so happy to read these lines.

By the way, I can arrange it if someone can just say the word.

Ha Ha Ha
[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img][img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img][img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[Whitehall]

So Iraq has one of the world\'s worst, most totalitarian governments, it\'s invaded it\'s neighbors twice causing a million deaths, and has certainly pursued nuclear, biological and chemical weapons to make itself more fearsome to the people around it.

It\'s clearly and publicly articulated foreign policy goal is to unite other Persian Gulf peoples (and their oil resources) under one leadership (Saddam\'s).

The United States has very broad support in the region for removing Saddam, albeit the other governments are making politically correct statement otherwise to position themselves for internal reasons.

We now live in a world where no troublemaker is far enough away for safety. Our choice is continued world anarchy or a more ordered and safer world. The burdens of world citizenship seem to be rejected for reasons of narrow self-interest by some European governments who seem happy to use the US as world policeman when it suits their interests. Yet, when asked to forego short-term commercial advantages, they come down on the side of anarchy.

The American government does not seek war and conquest yet the continuation of the Iraqi regime will almost certainly bring a more terrible war to the region. That bigger, badder war will result in world-wide depression and massive civilan misery and death.

I\'m saddened to say this, but war now looks like the wisest choice for everyone (except Saddam.) Americans will die in removing his government. We all wish that someone else would pay that cost.

The hard part will not be the defeat of Saddam\'s armies but in creating a functioning society and government afterwards. The Iraqis have no experience in self-government and little proclivity to treat one another as equals. Still, can anyone doubt that the Iraqi people will not welcome an American-lead liberation and reconstruction?

Cute and clever song, though, I will grant.



\"War is a bad thing, but it is not the worst thing\"

Edmund Burke

[seadove]

<<<Americans will die in removing his government. We all wish that someone else would pay that cost. >>>

Don\'t wish too hard.Innocent Israelis are also at stake here.If Saddam cannot reach America he will take it out on Israel.

Let us wish that Saddam himself will pay dearly for his atrocities.

[franki]

Speaking of Israel, let\'s hope they vote for a government that is a bit more sensible than the current one.

[Elana]

But this time, Ivan, there will be hell to pay. This time Israel WILL retaliate and fiercely at that. Don\'t Fu#k with Israel!

[seadove]

This time I am gonna participate by volunteering to who will want me.
I\'m gonna kick ass.

[Elana]

Like what Franki? One that allows suicide bombers to blow up more busses? Hopefully the Likud will stay in power

[franki]

As far as I know the Likud and Mr. Sharon are not very much after any form of advance in the peace process with the Palestinians. (I don\'t know if the peace process still exists ....)

[Elana]

Yeah...it\'s easy to make peace with people that wish to have you thrown out to sea. Are you familiar with Oslo?

[franki]

Well, at least when the israelian labor party (don\'t know how you call them) ruled, these things used to go a lot smoother than now.
And don\'t get me wrong, I am not a leftist.

Yes, I know what the Oslo treaty is.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Elana]

The Intifada was not caused by the Likud. It was caused by a bunch of radical Palestinians

[Bruce]

Whoa there folks!!!!

When I saw the \"Bomb Iraq\" I thought \"Hmmm... looks like we might have a war right here in the forum. Well then, maybe not\"

Now we have Israel in there. We are definitely talking major flame fest now. What to do?

Bruce

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Duck, is my best advice. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[franki]

Maybe it is best to let the thread die a slow death. I can see this is a topic with dynamite in it. I tried to be very careful with my words.

Franki

[Elana]

Honestly Bruce, you may want to lock it or delete it. It really is a touchy subject, and I am just too passionate about it to say nothing. I realize that there are others who feel just as passionate about the other side. It could get ugly(er) [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[franki]

Yes, it would be good if Bruce could lock the thread. Don\'t know if that is possible.

[Bruce]

OK FTR,
You and me. We will sit down right here in the forum, hold hands and chant \"Om, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti...\" Or do you think Kombaya would work better? Or maybe the duck idea was the best after all.
Bruce

[Whitehall]

\"I tried to be very careful with my words. \"

Frankly, Franki, I don\'t see that anywhere in your verses - it\'s just a witty ditty full of cheap shots.

I say let\'s talk about this. It is a MAJOR public policy issue and I would appreciate thoughtful input from our non-American members.

Israel is somewhat peripheral to Iraq but one reason why the US is in a hurry is that Israel could start using nukes if provoked and we don\'t want that!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok, Bruce, you and me.
I\'m with Om, shanti.
Chanted in a fall-out shelter. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[franki]

I agree my messages are not as sharp-witted as yours, my posts are easy to critcise and I don\'t mind that.

If I was to post a very well-thought-through message about this subject I would be busy for at least half an hour or (probably a lot longer) ...

Franki

[Whitehall]

Franki,

Your opinion is valued and I always appreciate your thoughts and opinions.

I already said that the verses were cute and witty and I meant it. I do think the subject is worthy of thoughtful consideration, if anything is.

Of course, my stuff certainly gets it share of criticism but I\'m tough and I can take it (boohoo, sob, sob.)

[abductor]

I thought several times before posting in this topic because
war is a subject that I don\'t like.The Brazilian people are very peaceful, (I think we never entered in war) A few days one minister declared the possibility to return a study on nuclear weapons, saying that we have technology to develop nuclear weapons. That unhappy declaration almost made him to
lose minister\'s position. With so much people with hunger in the country spend money with a weapon that we will never use is imbecile thing ..
But the one that I would like commenting is:
=======
So Iraq has one of the world\'s worst, most totalitarian governments, it\'s invaded it\'s neighbors twice causing a million deaths, and has certainly pursued nuclear, biological
and chemical weapons
Whitehall--
========
Well my friend sounds like \"the sum of all fears\",
North Corea turned off the ONU monitors, and has all the Iraq characteristics mentioned by Whitehall but certainty the USA position about this will be another..
North Corea has potential to destroy immediately important
commercial partners like Japan, South Corea, China..
History like \"The Evil Sadan\" doesn\'t convince me.

I only posted that because it is what I think now,
I can be wrong and very probably I won\'t post
anything else about the \"war topic\".

[Whitehall]

North Korea offers an example of Iraq gone nuclear.

They are using their limited number of nuclear weapons to extort their neighbors with the potential to become a world marketer of nukes to anyone. Just as they sell Scuds to Yemen, they could someday sell nuclear weapons to Libya.

Our approach so far is to hand this one off (for now) to the neighbors. China, Japan, and Russia are all at greater risk today than the US and so are being told to get busy in talking some sense into the North Koreans.

As for Iraq, some commentators point out that today\'s situation resembles not Munich but the Sudentenland. The French are again saying \"let it pass.\"

Sorry, Bush is going to hit hard without any further UN resolutions and soon. That will cause a huge restructuring of the UN. Why do the French of all people have a veto? That\'s absurd.

As some comedian quipped - \"The French are going to send military advisors to the Iraqi army - to teach them how to surrender.\"


You mentioned \"The Sum of All Fears\" - I find that a credible scenario albeit with different political players. I did a thread in \"Health\" about what to do in such situation.

[CptKipling]

The Iraq topic is ok, but lets not start on Isreal, seriously.

[Watcher]

Ok a view from australia.

Support for an IRAQ war as far as committing limited SAS (like the delta force - secret forces) is split
-labour opposition party are calling for UN support for war
- liberal government is calling for support to be offered in any IRAQ war to help our US allies is the offical line

Its also driven by the prospect of a US/Australian free trade deal if we support we get a favour in return, it is being blocked by the US agricultural community which enjoys high protectionists measures and it means they would need to be more competitivie. That is more a WTO topic with the doha round of talks.

Back to our view on iraq, support is divided 50%, we think americans are driven by thier oil motive for cheaper world supplies long term with George bush advisors all having ex oil industry experience and jobs. I think the WMD issue needs to eb solved by the UN. Europe prefer to talk and discuss the diplomatic option (hasnt helped in isreal however) rather than to rush into conflict (a fallout of WWII thinking). I think the surrounding middle east countries have the best idea, offer Saddam huiseen refugee in another country with immunity from prosecution in return for him and his cronies stepping down and allowing a democratic govt to take over.
USA has rejected this which i think that despite all else the grudge GW.Bush has about his fathers loss in the first gulf war still drives his motives. He may hold off but he will go to war soon.

ITS PERSONAL.

[Gerund]

Israel is very relevant, and inseparable from a discussion of possible war in the Mideast w/Iraq. The Israelis has shown unbelievable restraint throughout the years, including when Iraq was launching scud missiles at them during the Gulf War in an effort to expand the war and muddy the issue.

I can\'t help but think that any other country that has endured unprovoked attacks from neighboring countries (7-day war), attempted genocide against it\'s race (WWII), and suicide bombers openly encouraged and rewarded by other nationalities, would have by now kicked the ever-lovin\' crap out of it\'s hostile neighbors, and established a \"buffer-zone\" along the lines of what the USSR did with Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Yugoslavia, etc., following (WWII).

And yet many feel that Israel has no right to keep the tiny amount of land it retained when it repelled an attack from a belligerent nation. How much land is it, anyway? A few hundred thousand acres? Less than Rhode Island?

If the U.S. had the same history of persecution, and it was attacked by Mexico or Canada, I bet we\'d grab all the land we wanted after pushing them out of our country, and feel fully justified in doing so. How do you think we\'d respond if certain quarters of world sentiment then started whining that we should give it back? How do you think we\'d respond to a new wave of terrorist attacks?

Man alive, I think Israel has exercised incredible restraint.

[Elana]

<Man alive, I think Israel has exercised incredible restraint.>

Isn\'t that the truth![img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Great post Gerund

[Wolfe]

i\'ve been to the middle east, and let me relate a story to you all to think about. a pilot (damn good 1) flew every day, he wore a f16 out in a month(IF he didnt get it shot to pieces 1st).
now after several months of watching this guy he once came back from combat and his plane was shot all to hell, no landing gear no nothing..he landed that plane on it\'s belly, they got him out of the burning weckage. blood came from his ears,nose eyes and mouth, none of this blood was because of the crash, it was because of the G-Force that he made his plane do( g\'s that explained to GD why his planes didnt last--why they where there to start with). he\'d been in a dog fight (outnumbered 3 to 1 ) and won. now next day he came to the flight line and demanded to know where a plane for him to fly was. he flew his mission as always. that night when he got back several ppl went to a local bar where a GD exec asked him WHY he did what he did, and how. this pilots answer was \" When i strap myself into that plane and close the cockpit up, open the trottle i no longer am flying that plane, GOD is the pilot and it is him flying that plane, if i die, it\'s ali\'s will\"..this was a Israeli pilot fighting the Palestines..something he\'d done every day of his life sence graduating from flight school.
Now what this means is beyound my understanding as this is a war they have fought 100\'s of years, and will continue to fight till one side or the other elimates the other. men like Saddam feel the same way ya know, and like that pilot, will stop at nothing to win--nuke anyone?..doubt not he would if he could.

[upsidedown]

>>\"..this was a Israeli pilot fighting the Palestines..something he\'d done every day of his life sence graduating from flight school.<<

I didn\'t think the Palestinians had any aicraft. So, I\'m not too sure about that story. Could he have been fighting someone else perhaps?

But, I agree with all the comments made re the Israelis. The Palestinians are lucky that Israel hasn\'t wiped them off the face of the planet yet. I agree that Isreal has been very patient and restrained over the years.