Bomb Iraq

[tounge]

No nutty Lucky, the government does not dictate my inner peace. Don\'t go down that road doll. You have no clue.

And wrong again Lucky. I don\'t enjoy fighting or war. I\'ve been there dear. And was damn proud to serve. If others had not fought for you you might not have the freedom to say the things you do.

I do agree that war does not stop all terrorism but by damn if the bastards are going to have free reign.

And Lucky, if you caught someone in your home trying to kidnap your child, do you fight back or give them a kiss of peace.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The Iraqi\'s were in Lucky\'s house trying to kidnap her child??

[franki]

\" Notice also that the Eastern European countries, the one\'s that were under Soviet repression for decades, are starting to voice their approval in favor of removing Saddam by force.\"

I think it is true the Eastern Europeans are more in favor of an attack, but don\'t forget that what their governments say, not necessarily reflects the will of the people.

For example, in Spain are 74 % of the people against a war, in Germany 50 %. At the same time, Aznar\'s (Spain) political position is very close to that of Bush and Germany\'s position is quite the opposite of that of Bush.

The main reason for this discrepance is that there is a right-wing government in Spain and a left-wing government in Germany.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Whitehall]

The Greens in Germany are some of the wackiest politicians around. Their participation in the German government explains a lot - at least to me.

Plus, I think we should all take the polls with a grain of salt. The nature, wording, and structure of the poll can tilt the responses.

One point that was made in the Economist was the lukewarm acceptance of the war by the American public gave Bush much more room to manuveur than would a bellicose, jingoistic popular position would. If EVERY American was rabid about getting Saddam NOW, then Bush would have fewer options.

[Wolfe]

quite frankly..in this case, i DON\'T GIVE A DAMN what the rest of the world thinks..the man(Saddam-and others like him) needs to go. The rest of the world has always needed America to pull it\'s ass out of the fire..America does NOT need the rest of the world to help it kick Saddams ass. (or any others like him)
In fact, only one other country on this planet could stand up to the USA in a fight and thats China...plain and simple fact.

[franki]

Well apparently, Bush cares about what the rest of the world thinks. He even wants a new UN-Resolution!

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Whitehall]

Sorry, but China is so far behind the US now and is slipping still. It would be tough for us to invade the Mainland (why would we ever want to?) but they couldn\'t mount a credible invasion of Taiwan in the face of token US intervention.

True, they have devoted enormous resources and manpower to the military yet their command and control lags far behind, a legacy of their Communist system. In other words, they are a worst-than typical bureaucracy. No one can come in (invade) but they sure can\'t project force (invade others.) Viet Nam whooped \'em good last time they mixed it up.

They do have enough nuclear throw weight to burn our cities as a countervalue play - just enough Mutually Assured Destruction to keep the peace with the US, India, and Russia.

This month\'s Atlantic Monthly reviewed a detailed study of the Chinese military - that\'s my source.

[Whitehall]

Tounge,

You are misrepresenting Lucky\'s position and distorting it just so you can post a noisy harangue.

As to you calling her \"nutty\" - well, buddy, you\'re way off base. While I may not agree with every position she takes, I think she is quite well grounded and shows much more common sense than you.

She absolutely shows more civility and class than what you\'ve shown to the forum. Please show more respect towards your betters.

[tounge]

Whitehall, your pomposity is a laugh. Lucky is the one who resorted to insults. Read her previous post. And you are no ones better. Please worry about yourself. I don\'t need you for a father.

[Gerund]

Exactly who do you need for a father? You obviously need someone...

[upsidedown]

Tounge,

You\'re like a litte kd with the finger pointing \"Well, SHE started it.!\"

I agree with Whitehall on this issue, and disagree with Lucky.....but I\'m a whole lot more offended by you\'re tone and attitude than I am her\'s on this thread and on the forum in general. . I also think Whitehall was on target with you. You refer to Whitehall\'s pomposity? Sorry, but you need to take a look at your own pomposity before you worry about anybody else.

But, I guess you can handle talking down to people but don\'t like it when anbody calls you on the carpet.

[tounge]

Oh wow, I\'ve been called on the carpet on the Pheromone forum. I\'m so hurt.

I\'m not pointing fingers at all. I made my opinions on the Bombing of Iraq. Some people don\'t agree and some agree. However, Lucky only chose to respond to my posts. And after a couple of posts she decided to make it personal, posting I wouldn\'t comprehend the meaning of inner peace. And also accusing me of enjoying fighting. Only me she attacked, not anyone else who opposed her opinion.

The problem here isn\'t me. It\'s the hive mentality of a few eliteists, who feel the need to be forum cops. I\'ll continue to post here as I see fit. If you don\'t like it don\'t read it and don\'t respond.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Tounge, that\'s not right. I know you hate my guts but I wish you\'d look at what I\'m saying and ignore that you don\'t like me personally. You come out of nowhere and are mean. I know I\'ve done it too, and I\'m not especially throwing stones, it\'s just ... if you\'re gonna talk politics, at least why don\'t you ever say anything about why you think someone else is wrong. It\'s not my area and I enjoy reading opposing viewpoints. You don\'t often have a viewpoint other than You\'re wrong and I\'m right. I can\'t get anything out of that.

[CptKipling]

Good post FTR

[Whitehall]

\"eliteists\" is spelled \"elitist\"

If you\'re going to describe my disdain for you, at least spell it right.

And, yes, I do look down on you for your rude and inconsiderate behavior. Elite people have better manners. I happen to agree with you on most of the points about Iraq but I can\'t stand by and see you insult people (especially women) I respect. If you act this way in real life, I\'m sure that you get your butt kicked regularly. However, I suspect that you\'re too coward to be so obnoxious where you could be called to account.

I value the discussions I have on this board and resent you taking up bandwidth with insults and noise. And, yes, I\'m calling you on because you\'re a threat to our good community. You\'re an abuser of our tolerance.

If we lived in a tribe, I\'d be leading the other men in chasing you out with pointed sticks, banishing you to the wilderness.

If I had Bruce\'s power of excommunication, you\'d be a bad memory.

[wozz]

Is there any conclusive evidence linking Al-Qaida to Hussein? The reason I ask is because there seems to be plenty of evidence linking them to other countries (Saudi Arabia for one), and we don\'t seem to be going after any of them (of course there was Afghanistan but that was obvious).

We\'re in a crappy situation. If we just go after Iraq and use all this terrorist rhetoric then we\'re picking on our enemies and using excuses. If we go after all the corrupt governments of that area (and there sure are a lot), then we\'re probably going to stir up a lot of resentment, which will almost insure future terrorist attacks.

I\'m all for getting rid of Saddam, but I honestly don\'t trust our current leadership, and I don\'t really know many people who do. I feel like they think everything they touch will turn to gold. I just wouldn\'t put it past them to do something nasty.

Basically I think it comes down to this: everybody on the planet with a TV seems to think that they know what\'s going on. Ignoring the fact that Bush&Co have stated that they\'re not telling us any details, the US has a long history of covering up the not so nice bits (think Vietnam, the contra affair, etc). We only get to find out what really happened years down the line.

So no offense to anyone here, but I think all this armchair generaling is a bit naive.

Also, if you care, I don\'t really have an opinion on that matter. I doubt that anything we do will improve the general situation.

[Wolfe]

one thing is VERY clear, sitting back doing NOTHING isnt gonna stop the next attack . do YOU volunteer to be thier next target? Are you ready for them to use a \'dirty nuke\' in your town? The botton line here is very diffucult i know, we sit back do nothing..we\'re gonna get hit again, and again, thats clear as it\'s happened again and again. We go to war to try to clean them out, odds are, we\'re gonna get hit. So no matter what road we take it\'s gonna be a nasty one, but in the end one must do what they can to clean out a snakes nest. If you don\'t they will grow in numbers and soon you won\'t be able to go any where or do anything w/o getting snake bite.

[wozz]

I agree, but you\'re talking about going to war with Al-Qaida, not Iraq. Last time I checked, Iraq has never attacked the US. We can\'t just go to war with anyone we have a hunch is linked to Al-Qaida (well, obviously we can because we are, but you get my point).

This is one of the main things that bothers me. There is a logical gap in using that terrorist argument as a reason for attacking Iraq. Since there is no evidence (as far as I know), saying anything about terrorist actions from Iraq against the US is speculative at best. I\'m sure he\'d love to wipe us off the planet if he could, but so would A LOT of other people, some of whome have more money and brains that Saddam, and even worse we don\'t know who they are.

I think there are plenty of other groups of people (countries or not) that pose a much greater threat to us and the rest of the world. It seems to me that Bush&Co have singled out Iraq because they\'re an easy target.

[Wolfe]

thats like saying theres a differance between being bitten by a diamondback rattler and a sidewinder. I dont have to be bitten to know it\'s a poisonous snake before i kill it.

[wozz]

So you kill every snake you see?

[Wolfe]

i know the differance between those that are poision and those that arnt...and i know that if they\'ve rattled and bit someone before they gonna do it again.

[bivonic]

Today Powell made statements that would suggest Osama Bin Laden was alive & well and makes it clear there is a connection between Al Qaeda & SH/Iraq (think on the 1st page of CNN.com)

Regarding the opposition we are seeing with invading Iraq:

Both France and Russia have long-term ties to Iraq and have a huge opportunity to develop the majority of Iraq\'s untapped oil fields, but only if Saddam Hussein remains in power. If we go to war and oust Saddam, then our law banning american companies from doing business with Iraq will be lifted, and France and Russia would have to compete with us in getting agreements with a new government, that we are going to set up.
Here\'s a recent news story in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune that gives some background info, but fails to see the lifting of the ban on american companies in a post-war Iraq. http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/3645463.html

Obviously, both France and Russia would prefer Saddam to not only stay in power, but to get the economic sanctions against Iraq lifted. China doesn\'t want the U.S. having a larger impact on the politics of Asia than we already do, and is also trying to block the upcoming war.

Russia is now starting to get jerked around by Iraq as Saddam\'s political machine has grabbed the oil field development deal worth $40 billion to Russian oil companies, and is holding it hostage to try to force Russia\'s help in the security council.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003/02/11/043.html

Hopefully, this will make Putin realize how futile it is to negotiate with Saddam and he\'ll finally join the U.S.-led coalition.

[Watcher]

All it seems to be about is the oil. Anyway russia has its own supplies its trying desperatley to ship to the US via the deep water port being constructed in sibera. If the US is in IRAQ then a bit of economic competition is a good thing, raise the standard of living and provide some stability for the middle east - which = great dependable supply of oil.

[DrSmellThis]

I thought it would be fun

and interesting to bump this thread three years later, with the benefit of hindsight.

I especially enjoyed the

poem and Whitehall's replies (I enjoy Whitehall as a clear example of a hawkish, PNAC-type position very different

from mine. He's not afraid to come out and say it.). It's also interesting to read people who aren't in the

forum any more.

BTW, for those who imagine from recent posts that I am a "partisan", political person by history,

notice who didn't post in this humongous thread, until bumping it just now!

This was typical of my

apolitical behavior on the forum up through this time; until I figured out what mayhem the Bush administration was

really up to. After that, my mind and integrity would not allow me to stay "unbiased", and I began posting

"political" stuff.