Bomb Iraq

[Whitehall]

Collateral damage seems to correlate with expended firepower. The more you shot, the more you hit - for better or worst.

In the Gulf War, US forces killed a significant number of Americans too. The problem is magnified in coalitions since the coordination across commands is weaker than within a command.

Frankly, I\'m certain we\'re doing the best we can to reduce unintended deaths but no one believes it will be reduced to zero.

[Wolfe]

agreed White, sad though it cant be better than that.But even though it does happen(as sad as it is) we can\'t bury our head in the sand and let them continue to kill ppl at will without at least trying to put a stop to it.
the men and women who join the armed sevrices at least understand what they might face,,those in the Twin Towers didn\'t have a choice.

[Mtnjim]

\"Collateral damage seems to correlate with expended firepower\"

Additionally, one thing I heard in an interview with a retired general was that with the advent of \"smart ordenance\" the commanders are ordering fire be directed closer to friendly forces...but the \"smart ordenance\" isn\'t as \"smart\" as we are led to believe. When this ordenance misses lots of \"Collateral damage \"

[Naughtymonkey]

Wolfe

I know 9/11 was an attack on civilian targets - of course. But you should not be viewing the war in afgan as war on the afganees, no more (apparently) a war on Iraq is a war on iraqees. You mistake a war on an enemy as a war on a people. I appreciate the inherent contradiction in this in that it would seem that CERTAIN members of the religion Islam are hell bent on killing people of the west, be they Yanks or brits. But what differentiates us from them is that we don\'t cast the entire nation/religion/colour/crede in the same boat.

I\'m sorry if this causes friction - I for one am no bleeding heart liberal and also have Iraqee friends. Saddam is a thug no doubt, but is there any real value in attavking a nation to get at one man? (with all of the collateral damage that goes with it). CIA/MI5/ delta force/SAS - take the man out, don\'t kill civilians in the process. The enemy is organised entirely on different lines from a huge army with all of the bombs/tanks/aircraft on the world. The UK know with the IRA that a conventional response doesn\'t work. It is the proverbial sledgehammer and nut, admittedly the nut is hard and dangerous but the sledgehammer can kill many along the way.

NM

[Gerund]

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CptKipling: Does anyone here have any idea what happens to Palestinians in Isreal?
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You need to ask yourself what business the Palestinians have being in Israel in the first place.

Do you go where you aren\'t wanted? And when you get there, are you violent against the citizens? And would you expect no reaction from that country to your behavior?

You usually have some very observant posts: This was not one of them. I expect better of you.

[belgareth]

You are so right. A couple years ago, I hosted an exchange student from Belgrade. DO you remember when we, under the auspices of the UN bombed Belgrade to get at Milosivic? Her and I talked about that several times. Didn\'t do a bit of good, really. It did kill, injure and scare the bejeeses out of a lot of innocent people, though.

The biggest problem with getting to Hussien through war or special ops jobs is that he surrounds himself with loyal people then shelters them behind thousands of innocent people. He does not care how many people die, so long as he stays in power.

I do not know what the answer is. But killing thousands of people who happen to be in the way is not it. From what little I know of the average person in Iraq, they no more want a war than I do. No matter how it turns out, they will be the real losers.

[Wolfe]

nowhere did i say that, but whatever..could care less what you or anyone else thinks. yuo have your opinion and i have mine.

[CptKipling]

\"You need to ask yourself what business the Palestinians have being in Israel in the first place.

Do you go where you aren\'t wanted? And when you get there, are you violent against the citizens? And would you expect no reaction from that country to your behavior?

You usually have some very observant posts: This was not one of them. I expect better of you.\"

Like I said, lets not talk about Israel.

This is CK officially not participating in this thread, unless anyone is interested enough for me to get some stories from a friend whos family fled in terror.

[Mtnjim]

\"\"You need to ask yourself what business the Palestinians have being in Israel in the first place. Do you go where you aren\'t wanted? And when you get there, are you violent against the citizens? And would you expect no reaction from that country to your behavior?\"

Well, lets see--some foriegners (US, UK, et al) come into the land where your family has lived for hundreds or thousands of years and takes your land. These foreigners then give this land to other foreigners (German, Russan US et al) and tell you to leave. Gee, wouldn\'t YOU get pissed off?

Religion is NOT the bottom line in this.

[Elana]

<<come into the land where your family has lived for hundreds or thousands of years and takes your land. These foreigners then give this land to other>>>

The Palestinian\'s lived in that land for thousands of years??? Huh?

The Jewish people came to the land to live amongst the Palestinian people. What did the Israeli\'s do? They built schools, buildings, grew crops and made the land beautiful. What did the Palestinians do? They waged war against the Israeli\'s. They lost....their bad.

[Mtnjim]

PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THIS AS A SNOTTY RESPONSE!!

\"The Palestinian\'s lived in that land for thousands of years??? Huh?\"

Under different names, sorta like there aren\'t any Pharisees any more.

\"The Jewish people came to the land to live amongst the Palestinian people. What did the Israeli\'s do? They built schools, buildings, grew crops and made the land beautiful.\"

Western culture GOOD, Arab culture BAD

\"What did the Palestinians do? They waged war against the Israeli\'s. They lost....their bad.\"

Just like the injuns here-and reservations to.

Like I said please don\'t take this personnaly-it\'s just history-sadly repeated too many times. (see \"injun\" comment above)

[Elana]

<<Under different names (like Pharassies <sp?&gt>>

Now, we both know that the Jews have lived in the land for many, many, many years more than the \"Palestinian\" people, so if this is about who was there the longest, it is not even up for discussion.

Does the US wage war against immigrants when they come to live in the US?

55 years ago Israel didn\'t even have an army yet. Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt,
Libya, Saudi Arabia, attacked all them all at once. Israel is constantly defending her right to exist against people that wish for her destruction.

It\'s interesting that all of the Arab countries can raise money to fund Palestinian suicide bombings against innocent Israeli civilians, but won\'t let them step foot in their land. I can\'t understand how anyone can say that the Jewish people don\'t have a right to that tiny little piece of land. Look at the countries that surround Israel. How come everyone want\'s to point the finger at Israel, yet nobody questions why the Arab world won\'t help the Palestinian people.

[Whitehall]

While I have tremendous sympathy for the Palestinian people, they have been terribly mislead over the years.

Worst is the coming demographic explosion. The Palestinians are one of the fastest growing populations in the world. One reason is that the UN has been feeding them for over 50 years now. Between free food from the UN and improved public sanitation and health services from the Israeli government, there are no checks or restraints on their population growth. Without the UN, how is this population to feed themselves?

The other Arab governments have used the Palestinians for their own ends.

On the other hand, the Israeli governments over the years have not always made the most intelligent decisions. For example, the continued settlements.

[Watcher]

Thanks for setting me straight SNE.

So SNE we all know the level of isreals preparation as far as protecting its boarders from its nearby arab states and the national service a lot of its citizens are prepared to perform. Do u have any figures on the amount of gross domestic product (GDP) isreal spends on its military forces ?

[seadove]

<<<Do u have any figures on the amount of gross domestic product (GDP) isreal spends on its military forces ? >>>

No secret.It\'s 42% which is far too dear.That is why Israel cannot tend enough to other urgent needs such as welfare, health, education and investing in the future development of the country.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Post deleted by Bruce

[CptKipling]

Ignor this rant Franki, some understand the spirit the limeric was meant to be recieved.

Nationalism can be a dangerous ideology.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Post deleted by Bruce

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Nate, you\'re way out of line.

[CptKipling]

Ok, talking of logic, lets think sensibly.

\"Suddams a serious threat to this entire planet.\"

Ok

\"He has chemical , biological and nuclear weapons.\"

Now how, at first glance, does that make him a threat? Many countries have these weapons, not to mention the US, is that a double standard I detect?

\"Can anybody guess who he wants to use them on? You guessed it the US.\"

Why? Come on reply to that one. I\'ll answer for you to prevent you from straining your limited intellect; you cant give me a good answer. Ever heard of M.A.D? No, I\'m not insulting you, it stands for Mutually Assured Destruction. Now Saddam may well be an evil bugger, but he isn\'t stupid. He WILL NOT attack America or any other western country with these weapons, simply because he will be destroyed.

\"Should we just lay back until he uses them? HELL NO! AMERICANS are not stupid and we earned our freedom we are not going to roll over and play dead.\"

You cant seem to escape your nationalistic ideals. So what if you earned your freedom? How does that count for a damn? American took North America from the American Indians, does that mean they have no rights? The Russian bravely fought off the German army in WWII, what does that give them?

Go and play nationalistic ape somewhere else.

Bottom line, the American government has it\'s own interests at heart, namely oil. All that Iraq hope to achieve from having these weapons is to become a power in the region. But Bush doesnt want that, because if that happens then oil prices will sky-rocket.


Me and Franki have only been going out for a week or so, we aren\'t ready for a physical relationship. But he didn\'t tell me he had a clit, what\'s up with that!?!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

lol thats funny! you know that even after all that writing any man with half a brain will read that and say you didn\'t disprove anything i said.

Ok lets make it simplier on you if you fighting to men. One is big one is small. Do you focuse your attenion on the little one and let the big guy knock you out from behind. No you do not! All we are doing is taking care of the biggest threats first.


M.A.D is only in theory as are most of your arguements. Your being Hypothetical. Yeah everyone said he wouldn\'t invade kuwait either because the US would help defend kuwait. Did that stop him? NO. Suddam Hussien is also on more drugs than you can imagine. Can you imagine a crazy, drug addicted man with nuclear weapons. Do you think that is a good thing. Im just trying to figure out what you are thinking

My ideas are not Nationalistic. My ideas are better defined as patrotic, nationalism is a totally different idea. i know i took the course at the University of Georgia. I am minoring in polical science.

Now as far as you and Franki going out. If hes not being honest with you maybe you should think about moving on!

[Whitehall]

We Americans have had to earn our freedom time and time again. Personally, I missed a good opportunity but my father faught in the Solomons in WWII, my uncle served on the DMZ in Korea, my brother-in-law served in Germany facing off with the Russians, my cousin lead a platoon at Khofji, and my eldest son is thinking of joining the 82th Airborne. Not to mention my family namesakes in the Revolution and the Civil War. In spite of all that, my family is a dedicated bunch of pragmatic pacifists.

As for Nate Dogg, his words are crude and undiplomatic but his spirit is strong. Maybe the State Department is not a career for him.

Better, put him in uniform, teach him to follow orders and only THEN give him a gun.

Other than the horrible mistake that was the Viet Nam War, we Americans can be proud that the wars we\'ve faught have been largely noble affairs - the Germans and the French can make no such claim. Criticism from \"the Old Europe\" seems particularly hollow and cynical these days.

Nationalism can certainly be subject to valid criticism, but our American nationalism has inspired us Americans to make those sacrifices that have time and time again made the whole world a better place.

[franki]

What the [bad word] is wrong with you Nate? [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

I didn\'t even say I was against the war, I only posted the song because you have to think twice before starting a war. I demand you offer your apologies for what you\'ve said about me.

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

BTW, Ever heard of the devil\'s advocate, Nate? I was trying to provoke a little discussion by posting the song.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

We fought for freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Those are strong American values that Americans with strong spirits and patriotism should protect and defend. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press means that you can say any damn thing you want about the president, you can call your Congressman up and tell him he\'s an idiot -- you can demonstrate on the steps of the Capitol, you can post flyers against the government, you can call your friends and neighbors and assemble and discuss whatever you like, whenever you like, without being afraid someone is going to come and get you in the night, which is a very real fear in other countries.


Some folks would appear to believe that it\'s only ok to speak freely if you agree with them and if you never criticize the government or any of our leaders. That is totalitarianism and oppression. We are supposed to be against totalitarianism and oppression. If you can\'t refrain from viscious personal attacks on people who disagree with your politics, you\'re not demonstrating the very things our forefathers fought for. You\'re being anti-American.

[franki]

Post deleted by franki

[franki]

FYI, I am a dutch native. There were elections in Holland a few days ago. I didn\'t vote because it is such a hassle to vote when you live outside your country. But I would have voted for a party (VVD) that is pro-war, for sure! See what you are doing Nate, you are insulting someone who is pro-american and making him responsible for something some government has said. Don\'t you think that is a little strange? Even when I would have been against the war there shouldn\'t be a reason to attack me like that (of course).

[CptKipling]

Some good posts, Whitehall and FTR.

I\'m not disrespecting anyone who is fighting for our freedom, or for the better of the world as a whole. America is in the awkward position of being the most powerfull country in the world, and they feel (rightly so I believe in most cases) that they have a responcibility to keep the peace. But what bothers me is when there is a hidden agenda, in this case oil. Nate, you cant even respond to any of my points.

M.A.D is a theory, more the reality of what will happen if a nuclear exchamge starts, and was the whole basis of the Cold War. Do you think SH is stupid enough to start cracking off nukes left, right and centre? Before you start, no he wouldn\'t.

BTW, how do you know he is on drugs, I\'m just curious.

There is a difference between loyalty to your country and believing everything your country does is right, without question.

Perhaps politics is the best place for you, you\'d fit right in.

BTW, I don\'t agree with Mr Blair\'s take on this.

[Wolfe]

i\'m proud to be a american, and have served with pride as well. one thing i\'d like to point out, americans have never started a war, we\'ve always been asked to come help. now for the 1st time in our history a prez is talking about us starting one and that concerns me alot-though i have no doubts either as to what kind of person saddam is and know he would either use or pass it to those others who would use these weapons and millions could pay the price of that..so i have to ask myself, can i stand by and watch that happen, or do something that goes against my better judgement..this i have yet been able to answer myself
BUT
i would not wanna be one, nor allow my loved ones, to be one of those millions..do you wanna be the one to pay that price of waiting??
now some say we(US) have those weapons, and yes we do, however the diff is. we\'ve never used them with but one exception from which we learned they shouldn\'t be used(on Japan)..saddam has used them, think he\'s learned not to use them again? or not give them to others to use? really think if saddam gave osama a nuke anyone be safe till it went boom?

[Elana]

<<<i would not wanna be one, nor allow my loved ones, to be one of those millions..do you wanna be the one to pay that price of waiting??>>>

HELL NO! Stop the madman before he gets us.

[bivonic]

Does anyone know how much of the oil Iraq is responsible in terms of global oil exports? I heard it was only 5%, if this is true do you still think it\'s a war about the oil?