moral question

[Gerund]

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It is not the instruement but what YOU do with that instrument. Pheros are instruments -- IMO instrements do not have a moral value. People (or more precisely their actions and the circumstances surrouding those actions) have moral value
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Pheromones don\'t screw people, people screw people?

Sorry, couldn\'t resist. Yep, gonna get another day in purgatory, if there is such a thing.

[Irish]

Yep. It\'sa good thing the effects of mones aren\'t too dramatic, or they would probably be banned.

The daterape drug analagy is interesting, cause mones appear to work unconsciously - the target\'s brain/hormone level is triggered to view the sender as more attractive, without consciously knowing whats going on. The pheromone circuit(s) in the brain appear to bypass the consciousness centers. In the sense that the target does not know what is being done to her body, it\'s like slipping someone a mickey in her drink. The pheros are transmitted through the air to the target where they have their effect on her brain, without her knowledge.

That makes pheros different from makeup, boobjobs, etc. Those enhancements are on display for all to see - the conscious brain receives those signals and processes the info. If I see a beautiful fixed up woman I can consciously analyze it - what would she look like WITHOUT makeup, those boobs might be fake, etc. If pheros work like science says, they are signals being sent to the unconscious brain of the target - the target doesn\'t know what\'s happening. Same as someone being unknowingly slipped a drug, in that regard.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That\'s right. Potato, potahtoe.
Put your \'mones on and get on with it. Do you want to have some fun, or sit around talking? [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[seadove]

Yes FTR
Her potato was the winner.
She\'s the best there is.

[Elana]

{{{{Ivan}}}}

[marv14yag]

I tend to think more of it as advertising, or, as another member has said, as a big red flashing bel on top of your head.

It\'s JUST like ADVERTISING you guys, isn\'t that what sexual attraction is?

I don\'t think there is ANY limit to pheromones as long as it is ADVERTSING!

A date rape drug would FORCE someone into something which they don\'t want to do, pheormones wouldn\'t, simplpe as that, pheromones, clothes, makeup, body, looks, are all ADVERTISING.

Now, pheormones, are just another TYPE of advertisement....Instead of looks, they get you noticed, like a bell on top your head.

Bart

[Walter_Mitty]

OK, my 2 cents. I agree with the statement that you are the one that is in question as far as morals, not the pheros you wear. But, to be the Devils advocate, I got in a couple of these discussions a long while ago, the pheros are sort of subliminal. You can wear perfume or makeup or what have you, but you are not fooling people in any way. You are trying to make yourself attractive. Pheros are not the same. You can add them, and the other folks around you have no idea what you have done, but still there can be an effect. So in essence, from that point of view, you are imposing yourself. This has really nothing to do with morality (from the dating standpoint) but you are keeping a secret from the world, and it does have some effect. I have no real solution, but it is something to throw around to keep us honest.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

There used to be laws against women wearing makeup and hair pieces, they were thought to deceive to such an extent. Makeup mimics youthful, fertile features in sexual heat. While you may realize a woman is wearing makeup, she is most certainly fooling you with it, if she\'s wearing it right. Her eyes are brighter, her lips are wetter and redder, her cheeks are more flushed, her skin is more smooth -- those are all indicators of health and fertility, therefore sexual appeal, enhanced. Just because you see it doesn\'t mean you realize the extent to which it is working on you. (When you might realize that with full impact is the morning after, when it\'s all worn off...)

\"All women, of whatever age, rank, profession or degree, whether virgins, maids, or widows, that shall from and after this act impose upon, seduce or betray into matrimony, any of His majesty\'s subjects by the use of scents, paints, cosmetics, washes, artificial teeth, false hair, Spanish wool, iron stays, hoops, high-heeled shoes, or bolstered hips, shall incur the penalty of the law now in force against witchcraft and like misdemeanors, and that the marriage, upon conviction, shall stand null and void\" (Corson, Richard, Fashions In Makeup, Peter Owen, London, 1972, p. 245).

[upsidedown]

OK, try this idea on for size. If subliminal attraction is immoral, shouldn\'t everybody be forced to scrub off all their natural pheromones? Or, we should all be forced to put some sort of product that strips us of our natural pheromones. It\'s really not fair for anybody to have ANY kind of subliminal influence over the opposite sex whether artificial or natural. Or, is it only a matter of degrees, and only a large amount of pheromones that\'s immoral? And, where is that fine line between being OK and being too much? If it\'s a matter of quantitiy, then we have an equal rights problem. It\'s totally unfair for all those guys who have a naturally strong phero signature to have an advantage over the less fortunate guys. Make them scrub them off to be fair to the rest of us guys. And it\'s not fair to the women either. After all how in the world can you expect them to resist the super natrual-phero dudes and make rational choices? Let\'s remove all pheromes and make everybody bland. Then we\'ll all be able to make intellgent and rational decissions on who is actually attractive without being subliminally influenced in any way.

[bundyburger]

I thought this argument would get dirty...
Elana put it really well, Pot-ay-toe Pot-tah-toe Per-tit-oh, but most posts, if not all here, have been really good arguments too.

FullTilt,

Witchcraft. ROTFLMAO
I love what you dug up there. Where\'d you find that?

Uppy,

What yoo said... \"how in the world can you expect them to reaist the super natrual-phero dudes and make rational choices?\"

We\'ve seen that before... the guy that can pick up any girl he tries to (mostly), \'plays\' her and she regrets it the following week becoz he now ingores her and has moved to his next target.
What would be wrong with the genuine nice guys bringing themselves up to the same or better level?? That way the ladies have a better chance of finding a genuinly \'nicer\' candidate... ...who she also wants to \'jump\'. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[bundyburger]

FTRH,

Ooops.... You said where you dug it up. LOL

[Watcher]

Some of the power males in society however may find this wrong or immoral because it means competition, where i work if i apply AE i get heaps of males further up the ladder in terms of the organisation hanging around making comments about how things arent right bla bla bla, without being able to pinpoint me.

This said they come out of the woodwork every time, ive started using this to my advantage when i want the department i work in to stop yapping and get some customer service going, they compete with each other and me but they work harder and generate more sales, i have kept pheros a complete secret of course where i am now.

It benefits us nice guys because the players are made more accountable and just cant run amok without giving something in return, it makes them by virtue of their ego sexual view of themselves to bend over to the more successful male and try to get his attention.

Ok ive ranted on about this before and it can get very dirty. Elana has the right idea. Anyone wanting more info do a forum search.

[Watcher]

Its amazing where she digs things up, FTRH must have one great search engine to get access to all sorts of data, but you can find anything on the web these days anyway.

[upsidedown]

>>I thought this argument would get dirty... <<<

Bundyburger, since your comment came right after my post, I hope you weren\'t refering to my preceeding comments as being dirty. It certainly wan\'t my intention in my comments.. It was intended to be taking a farce to an extreme to make a point.

Hopefully the latter part of your post is an indication that you did get the basic point I was making. Some guys get all the women they want because they have great pheromones....and they aren\'t always the best choices that women can get. Is it immoral for them to take advantage of this natural unconscious effect they have on women? I see no problem with just making life better for the guys who need a little more help. I don\'t see it as wrong or immoral.

[Watcher]

I see it as perfectly moral, even if you are a successful male, basically life is constant competition and any edge you can get well i say use it. I put this in the same category of working out, plastic surgery, a good mouth, NLP skills, money, a fancy car, being smart, good tits, eating healthy, good clothes, a loose dick being able to impregnate many women, good perfume or colonge, good legs, butt arms etc.
Being young or being old etc etc. Its just another advance designed to get those of us that use them to get more sex.

There is no need to take it to an extreme farce level either. Women and men never make the best choices in life we use what we want here and now and what we have at our desposal as far as knowledge and external feedback to make choices. If i get a beautiful woman as a result of using this stuff or more oppounities then i say why not. At least i can use my brains and have sex appeal as well.

[upsidedown]

I\'ve been thinking about this a bit. Here\'s some other thoughts.

I recall a time not too long ago when I went into a store and found an item I had been thinking about getting. This very hot blonde came over to help me wearing a rather revealing open top. She didn\'t go to any extreme trouble to protect her modesty while showing the item and demonstrating it to me either. Now, I\'m going to make a confession here folks...I\'m a normal weak male with the normal male weaknesses..and she got to me. I knew she was getting to me at the time, and I knew how she was getting to me, but I didn\'t care. I bought the item from her because she put me in a good mood, when I normally might have done some shopping around first. On top of that, when I was paying for the item at the register, she suggested I get one more little item that they were selling at the counter, and being the weak man that I am I said \"sure, why not?\" After leaving the store I laughed to myself and said \"you sucker, she really did a great sales job on you.\" But, I didn\'t care. I knew what was happening at the time, but I let it happen. Was her using her natural sex appeal wrong, and should it be outlawed? It was effective, but it didn\'t compel me to do anything I really didn\'t want to do since it was an item I had been planning on getting anyway. It just prompted me to buy it from her instead of the old bald guy with hair growing out of his ears in another part of the mall.

I\'ve also heard studies that waitresses who touch their clients on the arm tend to get higher tips. Should touching of customers by waitresses be outlawed? I don\'t think so. It\'s a subtle but effective thing that effects someone elses behavior.

I don\'t think pheromones are that singnificantly different in terms of their moral implications. I admit they\'re not perfect comparisons since people don\'t know that pheromones are working under the radar, but they do think the person is attractive for whatever reason, and whatever they do is because it\'s what they want to allow themselves to do. Even extremely aroused people can control themselves if they don\'t want to act on their feelings.

[krtel]

I\'m the same way. I also have those same weaknesses, and I\'ve been in very similar situations.

Good post though, very convincing. This has to be the best analogy on the thread.

- Krish

[Watcher]

Look i think youre feelings and thoughts on the subject are spot on, good work on finding an example to use and to explain it. I agree 100% with u on this, it gets me attention and most of the time that does it for me.

[franki]

\"This has to be the best analogy on the thread.\"

I don\'t understand the analogy with the blonde. With the blonde the attraction is obvious, with phero\'s not (or am I missing something?).

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t believe that using pheromones are immoral. The dictionary defines \"immoral\" as obscene, lewd, without virtue. I think that it is immoral when guys beat the crap out of their wives, girlfriends, etc., and same goes back for more. That to me is obscene, i.e. immoral. Another example of immorality is child pornographers and molesters. People that don\'t look after their kids or their elderly parents are immoral. People that use pheromones to attract attention without the intent to harm or abuse are not immoral.

[upsidedown]

>>I don\'t understand the analogy with the blonde. With the blonde the attraction is obvious, with phero\'s not (or am I missing something?).<<

Well, I admitted it wasn\'t a pefect analogy. But, all I was trying to say is that regardless of the reason I was attracted to her, she didn\'t force me to do anything. She got my attention, put me in a good mood around her, but didn\'t reach into my pocket and take the money from me by force. Pheromones are supposed to make you more appealing to the other person. The only difference is that the reason you find them attractive isn\'t obvious as in my example.. But, I still had control of myself with the blonde, and people under the influence of pheromones still have control of themselves (unlike the date rape drugs.). Her physical attibutes caused me to be more attentive to her and prefer her to another salesperson, but in no way did she force me against my will to buy what I did from her. I did it of my own free will. And, no matter how attractive she was, I would not have bought it if I really hadn\'t wanted to. It was an example of a subtle yet effective way of motivating another person. So, the point is that there are all kinds of subtle ways of getting attention and motivating behavior in others...but nobody is about to outlaw those approaches. So, I\'m making the same argument with pheromones....they make you more attractive and get their attention, but you\'re not forcing anybody to do anything they don\'t want to do. You\'re just making yourself more appealing to them so they\'ll pick you if that is their inclination.

My other point was that there are all kinds of subtle ways to motivate people, whether it be the sex appeal approach of the sales woman, or the subtle touch by a waitress which makes her seem more friendly to the customer....nobody is suggesting that subtle forms of influence are immoral or wrong, and pheromones are just another example of a subtle form of influencing.

I never claimed to have a perfect example, but it just came to mind while thinking of this. I don\'t have all the arguments worked out yet...they\'re sort of a work in progress.

Also, I guess I just wanted an excuse to admit my weakness for hot blondes in front of thousands of people and get it off my chest. I feel better now. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[Watcher]

Given that explanation on immoral and moral and the definitions i think youre on the right track, it just comes down to the individuals intent, its really just boosting ones attractiveness anyway so there is no right or wrong. Its just something that can be used to slide under anothers subconscious to make the self appear more desireable, you are signalling genetic and immune strength and appearing to be a perfect biological donation ie sperm. You also raise their hormonal levels resulting in more sexual behaviour i see everything right in that idea.

[bundyburger]

Uppy,

Nahh mate...not at all. I was refering to the original \"nonscents\" poster if anything, but even then I just meant the thread in general.

I liked what you said. It illustrated what I think too.

[xvs]

Here are some arguments I like:

- If some people have better vision than others, is it wrong to wear glasses? If some people have more pheromones than others, is it wrong to wear pheromones?

- If pheromones manipulate people, and you manipulate someone into feeling great, is that wrong? If that\'s wrong, aren\'t Hollywood movies wrong too (well maybe they are but...)?

[franki]

Those are really bad-ass reasons from people who whine about the fact nature is not fair.... A bit like me whining because I don\'t get laid lately. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[belgareth]

A million or so years ago, some guy figured out that he could throw a big rock and knock an animal down rather than chase it. This increased his reach and made him a better hunter. He was more likely to eat, survive and be able to feed a mate and offspring. Being better fed probably contributed to increased success hunting and greater pheromone output. It was a survival advantage that gave him a better chance to reproduce.

Was he cheating? I don\'t think so but the other members of his group who weren\'t coordinated enough to throw a rock might have thought so. It has been happening all throughout history. The ones who figure out how to get ahead get to reproduce more often.

Mones are just another example of that. The other primitives had every opportunity to pick up a rock, just as anybody can look into and purchase pheromones. We are not cheating. Instead, we are using our minds to give us an advantage.

[franki]

My point is, people are always so jealous of other people. (\"He has more mones than me, I want that too ...\") Me included. Hell, I am probably one of the most jealous people there are... [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] A little bit of jealousy is a good thing, because it makes you put on a better effort to get what you want. A lot of jealousy is destructive ...

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Wolfe]

Excellant post

[belgareth]

Well, sure. That\'s perfectly normal. We all want something somebody else has, if we didn\'t, most people wouldn\'t strive to achieve. It is a good thing, so long as it is kept under control and not allowed to possess you.

[franki]

It is ok as long as people are not saying \"it is not fair, and therefore we have the right to use synthetical mones....\"

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]