Legislation on Prohormones

[Bruce]

I heard there is legislation on the table somewhere banning sale of prohormones. Anyone know the details? That would mean the end of all the andro supplements, melatonin and more I assume.
Bruce

[Whitehall]

I\'ve heard that the FDA is looking at increased regulation of prohormones. The law so far has been pretty broad and manufacturers have exploited it to the hilt. Amongst users, some risks have been taken and so some horror stories are being to accumulate. New legislation will not be necessary.

The FDA and the regular pharmaceutical manufacturers are eager to increase regulation to increase the bureaucrats\' power and to increase the manufacturers\' profits by limiting self-prescripting.

I\'d be watching for a flood of stories in the press about \"abuse\" of prohormones and \"ruined\" lives of the young users. These will be plants and a set-up for government repression.

As usual, both sides of the debate have a point. The weak point in the defense of our liberty is underage prohormone users. For mature, intelligent users like Bruce and I, problems are few and far between - there are risks that we can rationally weigh vis a vis the benefits.

Some 15 y/o kid taking 4-androstenediol on long cycles is going to muck himself up really well, stunting his normal vertical growth, etc. We can hardly make the same case for his \"rational\" use.

Under current law, the FDA has the power to re-regulate many prohormones. It will take extensive hearings, findings, comment periods, etc. These will be expensive to defend against. Can we expect Biotest or Ergopharm to pick up the tab? I\'m afraid that our government will not be able to find a middle ground.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

http://www.prohormonelitigation.com/

this looks bad

[**DONOTDELETE**]

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E76%257E860223,00.html

doesn\'t look good at all

http://www.androshack.com/
Is this relevant?

[Whitehall]

Red,

They do have a basis for a case against androstenedione - it is pretty ineffective. It was the one that Mark McGuire used.

Some of the others are very effective - I did maybe three or four cycles of 4-androstendiol and that was enough - my muscles got so big I was scaring myself! I was happy to stop when I started to resemble Apollo - looking like a Greek God is good enough for me and my closest worshippers.

So I\'ve bought maybe two or three of the androstenedione products over the years - is it worthwhile to contact the guys with the class action lawsuit? Will it rain money on me?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Crowns in heaven, Whitehall, not coins on earth...

[Watcher]

So at what level of the government would this occour if it was only in the United States, well im safe in australia as its perfectly legal out this way. This stuff has been mooted for the last 3 or 4 years over in the states, its not that big an industry or even area of study, and if you ban androgen perfumes, then you will have to kill everyone on the planet who is taking samples of sweat and putting it into their favourite colonge. Well we could always fall back to the couplins for fun, or just keep taking horny goatweed and tribulus to push up natural levels.

I would probably ignore it folks because if a law is passed the power of pheromones will be brought into the public attention and then we will have all sorts of fun things going on.

[Watcher]

Maybe you should begin branching out into new product types bruce, ie herbal supplements, NLP materials, accelerated learning etc. Generate new income streams, with the love-scent name you could also branch out into perfume products without any androgens and expand the couplin range which wouldnt be affected by an androgen legistalion. This could end youre business so if something does happen you could survive at least.

[Wolfe]

seems kinda silly getting all worked up in a sweat over sweat

[druid]

Why would a ban on prohormones affect pheromones?

[Whitehall]

Here\'s a link explaining a bit about what\'s going on - it\'s all the New York Times!

http://reason.com/links/links120602.shtml

[Wolfe]

kinda wondered that myself

[druid]

they are probably trying to ban prohormones and prosteriods because of the possible side effects of raising your test levels by that much. Artificaifully raising test that much has been shown to be harmful with anabolic steriods. The word is still out if these prohormones (which are just precurors to the raw hormones we want to raise). Now my questions is this:

HAVE PHEROMONES BEEN SHOWN TO RAISE TEST LEVELS BY A SIGNIFACANT AMOUNT? To my knowledge they have not been. My understanding is that they SIGNIFY high levels of test (well the andro- ones). Which is not the same thing. I thing JVKOL needs to chime in on this.

[Watcher]

Please note the amount of times pheromones were mentioned ZERO 0000000000. Interesting that. Its always in the new york times.

[Whitehall]

So the NYT is going after prohormones. Typical.

That\'s why I\'ve tried to get people to THNK about the ethical implications of pheromone use. We\'ve had a couple of excellent threads on the ethical use of pheromones with a variety of positions presented.

The viewpoint of most concern to me was the nihilist view. The dictionary offers the following definition:

\"Nihilism - a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths.\"

People in essence said that the morality or ethics of using pheromones didn\'t matter because we were going to do anyway. We all just made up excuses for whatever ME wants.

There is an historical truth about nihilism - it always, ALWAYS, gets swatted down in the end. It is ultimately a loser worldview and any virile society will apply force to control and constrain its advocates and practioners.

If we accept a nihilist ethical position on pheromone use, then the NYT and the heavy hand of public opinion will move to regulate pheromones using government force.

One could argue that pheromones are just volitile date-rape drugs. If some of us use them that way, especially on underage girls, then outrage will not be far behind.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh, Whitehall, what a good post!

[Watcher]

Actually the NYT article didnt even mention pheromone application directly, it left it out altogehter which makes me think that its just the muscle building internal taking side of some of the prohormones that is the subject of the legislation.
Bruce could still sell the couplins as they lack androgens. Also he could still provide links to other pheromone sites as a internet advertiser. Although such legislation has been mooted over in the US for 5 years or more, it will settle down in the end.

Nihilism works well enough on this forum, it makes people actually think of cause and effect and other ideas about ethics for themselves instead of repeating ideas that have been sprouted by others and simply recycling them.

As far as under age girls what about men that naturally produce high levels of natural pheromones with seedy sex drives that use young girls as sex toys and move on, it happens often enough - so you would have to ban sex with underage girls by men above the age of consent with the penalty for breach of the law being the death penalty perhaps.

[druid]

1) What is the link between prohormones and pheromones? Prohormones are suppose to raise test levels for the purposes of body buidling/strength. Pheromones are subconsious messengers that trigger attraction. What studies show that pheromones have any affect on hormone levels??????? My understanding is that pheromones signfy high hormone levels. There is a difference.

2)Pheromones as a date rape drug? WTF??? The ethics of pheromones? Why should there be any special branch of ethics for pheromones? Wearing pheros is akin to getting nice clothes or a new cologne or a new hair cut -- they are something used to make one seems more attractive to potential mates. That is it.

3)Did anyone here read the article linked to above? Here is a quote
\"On the evidence marshaled so far by supplement critics, the bottom line is that we don\'t need to open a new anti-steroid front in an already highly destructive and failing War on Drugs. \"
The writer of the times article is AGAINST new legislation banning prohormones.

I think you guys are worrying about nothing with respect to a ban on prohormones affecting pheromones.

[Whitehall]

\"WTF??? The ethics of pheromones? \"



Dear Druid,

Your profile says you\'re 22 years old. Human folly is much older and has been exercised on much more trivial issues. Call me a pessimist but I\'ve learned to prepare for the worst in human behavior.

You should note that one of our pheromones (\'rone I think) is already on the proscribed list as a controlled substance. Wearing pheromones is an attempt to put a psychoactive controlled substance into another person\'s body via the nose to influence their behavior to your advantage. Some nut is going to call exogenous pheromones \"psychogas\" or somesuch. And you\'re only doing it to get laid where the \"Victim\" would not otherwise have been \"seduced.\"

Just wait until some 14 year old girl gets pregnant and claims the guy\'s pheromones made her do the nasty. The press will eat it up.

And, no matter what, you should take some time and reflect on the ethics of your behavior. It\'s good for you!

[Watcher]

To be honest the media will ignore it, as they have in the past. I guess its to out there still to be considered, for one poeple would have to take responsibility for their sexual behaviour - women wont like this at all blaming emotions as a conveient cop out.
Until it becomes front page news then really it will just be discussed in areas like this.
Good to get a discussion going on this thread though to hear different peoples thoughts.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Watcher, what will the men blame it on?

[Wolfe]

not getting any?

[Watcher]

Stupidity and an over active sex drive that refuses to let them think logically - that will be the excuse.
Of course some men just cant help themselves.
The media are just accelerants for any idea that comes along, they dont refine any \"theroies\" they just allow it to go into mainstream awareness. The profit motive drives the media and the powerful men having sex with underage girls who need thier balls cut off.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

OK

[druid]

I do consider the ethics of my actions. It is my point that we do not need a new set of ethics pertaining to phero\'s. And I don\'t believe that pheros have that much influence over a person\'s behavior -- that is jsut a cop out. I am sick and tired of people using sh-t like temporary insanity, extreme horiness or some other such nonsense to jusity their actions and I am really tried of our joke of a legal system that would allow such things. I believe that people have will power and free will and determine their actions through their own accords. And if something one does is deemed illegal then would should pay the price. To blame it on someone\'s pheromones is complete BULLSH-T. it is cop out, especially when considering most people don\'t even acknowledge the validy of pheros. IMO using excuses like that to justify crimes is just a symptom of a greater problem -- PEOPLE HAVE COME TO A POINT WHERE NO ONE TAKES RESPONSBILTY FOR THEIR ACTIONS. I feel that is part of the reason our socity is in a sh-t hole now.

Oh and about the sex -- it takes 2 to tango so to speak (except for rape)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t think anyone disagrees with you. I believe Whitehall was saying that some jackass of a politician would use pheromones\' ability to influence mood as a tool to whip up an ill-informed move to legislate their use.

[druid]

well I wish us good luck on trying to get a politican to do anything. Especially something that has some logic behind it (and not money).

[Whitehall]

It\'s called demagoguery - one of the vices to which democracy is prone.

Druid,

22 and already tired? It\'s going to be a long life and there\'s lot\'s more where this comes from.

[druid]

well I guess I will find an outlet [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Watcher]

There is no money power or political gain in going after pheromones in mainstream media.

The politicans are more likley to use them in secret like the rest of us to make their life easier and as someone said to me ages back how to win friends and influence people in 30 seconds flat (ok i copyrighted a book title here, but the label fits) i wouldnt pay to much attention, monitor developments and bruce may consider branching out into related product areas like herbs NLP accelerated learning techniques, fringe self improvement tools or vitamins etc. Just to generate some income and to protect himself should problems arise down the track.