what prevents estro conversion?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

hey, does anyone know what prevents testosterone from converting to estrogen? like is there a supplement or anythign i can take to stop this from happening..and does anyone know what raises t levels without the extra estrogen conversion? i know black men have a higher level of t but also the estrogen conversion can get you, would some of you smart dudes help a brother out? thanks fellows

[proteus]

The best non-prescription estro blocker out there is \"Viratase\" produced by molecular nutrition. I take it every now and then when I take Tribulus as without it the excess testo. is converted to estrogen. I\'ve never seen it in the health food stores and have always purchased online - there are lots of places that sell it, but it is kinda pricey and the best price I found was here:

http://www.discountanabolics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=DA&Prod uct_Code=V9C&Category_Code=MOLECULAR+NUTRITION

If you search for it and find a place that sells it cheaper let me know. BTW don\'t waste your money on stuff like Chrysin which is also recommended by some as an estro blocker as it does nothing. anyway, if you want to check out what others have to say about Viratase do a search on the bodybuilding.com forums as there are a lot of posts about it.

[Bruce]

http://www.affordablesupplements.com/viratase.asp

Check this page for info about Viratase. The price is a little higher, but there is a lot of information about the product on the page. I reccommend reading this page carefully for anyone thinking about using this type of product, especially the parts about what estrogen really means to the male system. It is not all evil. Estrogen apparently provides important benefits at the right levels. For you guys in your 20s and 30s I would get my hormone levels checked before wolfing down these anti-aromatase supplements.

All that said though, excess conversion of testosterone to estrogen is a serious problem (IMHO) for guys my age (52) and up. I read that the average 50 year old male has more estrogen in his blood stream than the average woman of the same age.

Bruce

[Bruce]

I agree with Proteus that the Chrysins are a waste of money. I have taken them and they do nothing when taken orally. I read recently that Chrysin creams have been shown to have an effect, don\'t know for sure about that.

I took DIM for one month and that seemed to help. Some older lifters I spoke with say its good anti-estro.

The Vitamin Research Products (see VRP.com) newsletters often carry articles on hormone issues. Here are some bits from the Q and A section concerning T to estrogen conversion.
\"Unfortunately, androstenedione in some men may preferentially convert to estrogen-just as DHEA is converted to testosterone by many women.
<snip>
\"If estrogen levels are too high, you may be able to lower it by taking BioDIM or 13C (DIM products sold at VRP.com). Alternatively, the anti-aromatase drug, Arimidex, in dosages of 1/2 to 1 mg several times weekly should prevent aromatization (conversion) of testosterone to estrogen (if this is a problem).\"
-Ward Dean MD

Bruce

[proteus]

Very interesting and useful article. Having used Viratase every so often, it definitely works very well, rapidly, and visibly as an anti-estrogen and did not notice a single side effect when using it and usually with a lot of supplements I tend to experience some side effects, so this was a definite plus. The only downside about it is the price, but it\'s effectiveness is in no doubt. As I said earlier I used it to counter estrogen conversion from excess test. when using tribulus, the main symptom in me being excessive water retention, and Viratase eliminated this effect completely. I have no doubt if it was this effective with this, it probably also helped prevent any excess fat deposition that often occurs also as a result of high estrogen levels. But it definitely helped to get very tight and leaned out when on this, but until I can find someone who sells it somewhat cheaper I\'ll only use it sparingly.

[Bruce]

Proteus,
How long does a bottle of that stuff last, taken as directed?
Bruce

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Pardon a stupid question -- they sell progesterone creams for women to counter excess estrogen -- would those creams help at all, do you think?

[Bruce]

I\'ve heard that has some great benefits for women, where the trick is apparently getting the right balence between estrogen and progesterone, but for guys that is not going to work. High estrogen with or without the progesterone give you breast development, that feminine rounded look and shut off the body\'s testosterone producing mechanism. All that is great for women, but doesn\'t work for guys. From what I read though, there are some problems associated with hi estro levels in women that progesterone creams may be able to help with.

Bruce

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok, no help there, then.

[Bruce]

Red,
HOLD THE PRESSES! Pull out page one!

Look what I just found:
http://www.affordablesupplements.com/testroxin_gel.asp

That is a product that is supposed to circumvent the feminization problems of the usual oral \"Andro\" T raising supplements, austencibly by using topical application, but hold the phone! Scroll down to the table comparing the two competing products and click on the \"view nutritional label\" links. Both contain progesterone!

Not such a stupid question after all, huh?

Bruce

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Aha! Those two brain cells of mine are still making sparks after all!
It sounds just like those progesterone creams they sell to women to combat overestrogenation, right?

[proteus]

Bruce,
the directions for Viratase were 1-2 caps, 2-3 times per day and there were 90 caps per bottle. So at the max. recommended dosage of 6 caps per day that worked out to lasting 15 days.

I always took 2 caps twice per day so it lasted about 20 or so days, which at around $40 for the bottle when S+H charges are included, was getting too expensive especially since I purchase other supplements like Whey protein/creatine/glutamine etc. every month.

[Bruce]

Prot,
Yeah, that\'s pretty pricey stuff. What do you think of the testro gel stuff I linked above? They claim you don\'t have to worry about estro conversion. Every tried that?
Bruce

[Whitehall]

Progesterone helps with BALANCE not by reducing estrogens but by increasing progesterone. Therefore it is not any help for guys.

There is an prescription drug called Arimidex that is supposedly very effective but very pricey. Medlean offers a couple of topical products - one \"ProSport Creme\" has androdiol and estrogen blockers. \"Ive used it and it is safer than other andro products with fewer side effects.

ErgoPharm has a new product that looks very interesting - 6-OXO - although I have yet to try it.

http://www.ergopharm.net/products/6oxo.asp

[Bruce]

Whitehall,
What do you know about that Ergopharm? They don\'t seem to actually sell the products online. Where can you buy that 6 OXO? Interesting rap they have about estro inhibitors.

And what about the topical products you mentioned. I found a site at www.medlean.com, but they don\'t seem to have anything for sale online either. Where can you buy these products?

Bruce

[Whitehall]

Bruce,

www.netrition.com sells both Ergopharm and Medlean along with Biotest, et al.

They have good customer service (almost equal to love-scent\'s) and their prices are some of the lowest I\'ve seem on the net.

The 6-OXO stuffs looks like it could be pretty serious. As I haven\'t tried it personally yet, I would only recommend trying it if you\'re savvy about prohormones and in serious touch with your body so you can self-monitor the effects. But then, I\'m the cautious type.

[Whitehall]

Thanks for pointing me to this Viratase product. Chemically, it looks like proviron which has a reputation for having a very positive effect on the libido as well as anti-estrogen effects.

One question I have about anti-estrogens is just how they affect the libido. One neurological theory is that estrogens really affect the nerve circuits in the brain that control sexual drives. In men, there is an enzyme near or on the nerve cells that convert testosterone to estrodiol which then sparks sex drive. One wonders if the steriodal anti-aromatase compounds knock down libido. Of course, they would have to cross the blood/brain barrier first. Some, like proviron, have a reputation otherwise.

[proteus]

Bruce,
I\'ve never tried this gel, but read about it on the bodybuilding.com forum which IMO is the best place to get any \"honest and frank\" info on supplements from folks who\'ve actually tried the products.

Anyway, the general consensus is that the product is useless and estro conversion is in fact a big problem with it. A couple of the users reported typical results of estro conversion, including Gynecomastia. The almost unanimous opinion of all the folk whose opinions carry weight there (and virtually every user who\'d tried it) is that testroxin actually \"raises estrogen\" levels, with some of the guys who\'d used it reporting huge gyno. side effects.

Also, the company that produces it is regarded as disreputable and their claims not to be trusted. Do a search on the bodybuilding forums if you want to read some of these opinions, but usually I\'ve found this crowd are very objective and recommend what works, and honestly state what doesn\'t.

[proteus]

Whitehall,
I\'ve used Viratase on and off for a couple of months and it has no negative effect on libido. It just seems to do exactly as described - prevent excess estrogen but with no resultant decrease in libido and the results are really noticeable.

Even taking the maximum 6 pills per day (athough I almost always took 4 since I got as good results with 4 as I did with 6), I experienced zero physical side effects, and no effects on mood, libido etc.

So, but for the price, it is really a quality supplement that does what it claims, and if you really need a non-prescription estro blocker this is the way to go.

[HB_88]

Is it safe to take Viratase while also taking Wellbutrin?

HB_88

[Bruce]

What is Welbutran?

You can check the label of the Viratase on the website listed above. I think there are some warnings about mixing. If Welbutran is a prescription drug, you will want to consult your doctor and asume that Viratase does what it is supposed to do.

Bruce

[proteus]

HB_88 ,
I have no idea idea whether it\'d be safe to use Wellbutrin with Viratase. You could e-mail the manufacturers of Viratase in addition to doing what Bruce suggested. The url for Molecular Nutrition is:

http://musclemonthly.com/sponsors/molecular-nutrition/

[druid]

I don\'t use any steriods or prosteriods/prohormones to raise my T levels -- do I have to worry about estrogen conversion?

[Bruce]

Not at your age unless you have some unusual imbalence. Now, when you get to my age, you might want to give it some thought.
Bruce

[HB_88]

Wellbutrin is an anti-depressant, indicated also for treatment of obesity, overeating, nicotine addiction, and a bunch of other stuff. It\'s not an MAO inhibitor itself, but you\'re not supposed to combine it with MAOIs.

HB_88
Hikita/ Banzai 88

[Bruce]

Boomers! (guys)
I ordered some 6 OXO from this site:
www.expectsavings.com
The price is good but I mainly chose them because they promised same day shipping. Already disappointed in the customer service as they still haven\'t shipped the stuff, but I have a very good feeling about the product. I read all I could find on it and the creator, Pat Arnold. If half of what he says is true, this product is going to be a major boon for male boomers. Really psyched to try it out.

Honestly though (not just a legal disclaimer), I wouldn\'t mess with this stuff if you are under 40 and/or without a Dr. supervision and/or without doing a lot of research.

Bruce

[Whitehall]

I picked up some 6-OXO Saturday and started taking it Saturday night (3 capsules at the evening meal.) Had a very vivid dream with heavy sexual content (R-rated, not XXX) that first night. Noticed much more energy and signs of reduced estrogens. Muscles a bit tauter.

The directions suggested 3 to 6 capsules once a day and starting with 6 capsules then cutting back to 3. I\'m being conservative at starting with 3 but observed effects suggest 6 would be tolerable.

[Bruce]

Sounds cool. Wish there were some place here in Eugene where I could run down and pick up a bottle. I think I\'ll be lucky to have my order by Friday.
Bruce

[HB_88]

Bruce--
Have you taken the 6-OXO yet? How\'s it working out? For Bruce and everyone who\'s taken it: what effect does it have on your mood?

HB_88

[Whitehall]

I did a two week cycle of 6-OXO. The excess estrogen effects deminished with little effect on mood. However, I did notice early some signs of too low estrogen - achey joints in particular but that could have been the cold rainy weather.

I think it would be good to do both 6-OXO and something like 1-AD or 4-AD together.