WAR -- good gawd, y'all -- what is it GOOD for?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

http://www.ccmep.org/us_bombing_watch.html
We\'ve BEEN bombing the b\'jesus out of these people. What\'s up with we\'re \"gonna\" have a war? We\'ve been at war for awhile already.

http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis_nov10.html
According to this, the reason we\'ve decided to go to war on Iraq is so we can get over there and get everybody all worked up and then move on Iran.

WHY?
I know, oil. ... Can\'t we produce enough of our own oil? Do we really not have enough? or is it on government protected lands so there\'s no access to it.
Wouldn\'t we be better off making more nuclear power plants and leaving the middle east the hell alone? What is the compulsion to be over there blowing stuff up? I don\'t see Republicans being voted out of office, so it looks like US population wants this. I\'m bug-eyed incredulous.

Somebody give me a clue...
Commentary? Venting?

It took many of us here in the DC metro area 2 hours to get to work -- the bridges were closed because of a bomb threat to the Department of Agriculture -- it looks like there will be no end to it ...

Note: Debates (or arguments) are part of talking politics. Reader beware. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[belgareth]

Somebody once said that any war of aggression is no more than armed robbery, writ large. Attacking Iraq based on the information I have seen is a war of aggression. If our government has more than the scanty facts released to date to support their retoric, they should release it so we can judge for ourselves whether to support an attack. If our government has so much evidence to support their position that they are willing to take thousands of lives, why are they having so much trouble convincing other world leaders of their position?

For now, based on the information available, this impending war is unsupportable! Let\'s focus on the unemployed and the hungry in this country.

[franki]

I think the danger of Iraq is a real threat to the rest of the world. But just one of many. The availability of oil and more important the dangerous weapons Saddam has are not only an issue for the USA, but also for the rest of the (western) world.

To be honest, I\'d rather see the USA step in issues in the rest of the world than isolating it self. The new UN-resolution makes the potential attack on Iraq legitimate I would think.
That means I am pro war, unless most of my fellow Europeans.

[belgareth]

Certainly, Iraq is a danger to the rest of the world. So is Pakistan and China and India and Korea, to name a few. They have weapons of mass destruction as well. That\'s not the point.

First, what right does any country or group of countries have to determine who has what weapon and who should not be allowed to have them? IMHO all weapons of mass destruction should be banned but that is not likely to happen.

Second, who are we to determine what type of government another country can have and who it\'s leaders should be? Aren\'t we saying that everybody has the right to choose, so long as they do it our way?

Third, what does oil have to do with it? Are you saying that we can go over there and take the oil because we need it more? Well, gee, China needs our grain. Can they come take it, starting a war and killing thousands of innocent victims in the process? No matter how you say it, that\'s armed robbery!

I am not saying that we should not go to war, nor am I advocating isolationism. I am saying that we need more, better information in which to make an informed decision. I supported Bush in the last election. But now, he is acting like a rabid dog and I do not support him based on the information I have.

Belgareth

[franki]

\"Third, what does oil have to do with it? Are you saying that we can go over there and take the oil because we need it more?\"

What I meant was Iraq threatening other countries in the Middle-East. Iraq has the potential to threat Saudi-Arabia.

\"They have weapons of mass destruction as well. That\'s not the point.\"

Actually what President Bush is talking about all the time is the dangers of the weapons of mass destruction. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Now probably that is not the real problem, but what about Iraq helping terrorists, selling them biological weapons?

\"he is acting like a rabid dog\"

Well, he has an UN-resolution now. Legally it is still not enough to attack Iraq, but at least there is some sort of consense around the world.

\"Second, who are we to determine what type of government another country can have and who it\'s leaders should be? Aren\'t we saying that everybody has the right to choose, so long as they do it our way?\"

It is really not about whether Iraq has a democratic government or not.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

http://www.rense.com
http://www.propagandamatrix.com

The truth is out there. Our government just doesn\'t want us to know it. eg: Bush family and Bin Laden family have been partners for 30 yrs. (this is a fact) Bush family has seats on the board of Carlisle Corp. (3rd largest defense contractor) as well as on a large oil company in Texas (this is where the partnership with the Bin Laden family is)
Why is Sadam so dangerous? We still have no solid evidence that he actually possesses WOMD, even if he does, he doesn\'t have missiles that can deliver them to the US border.
Why are we focusing on Sadam anyways? I thought we were after Osama Bin-Laden. Today\'s news on CNN says he\'s still alive - shouldn\'t we finish one \"project\" before starting another?
PS - we\'ve been bombing Iraq since 1991 - \"defending the no-fly zone\" by taking out radar, and anti-aircaft facilities.

[druid]

because sadam is a megolomanic mass murding fck head. He has already invaded another country (kuwait), and if he has weapons of mass destruction then i think he should removed from power. I mean the last time the US just minded its own business someone almost conquered the world. Hittler. He came a lot closer to it than most people think. IMO if he hadn\'t devoted resourses to trying to kill all the jewish people of europe and if russia had not been so relentless in pushing the attack then the world would be very different today.

And when did we stop looking for bin laden? he is just a wiley mutha. I would put all my money in the world on sadam having a helping hand with 9/11. Think about it. They both hate the US (well the entire judo-christian world). They have a common goal and that has a tendcy to unite people. Most of the middle east hates western civilaztion -- hell even kuwait (and we saved them from sadam) has problems with us. That is one fcked up parted of the world. I feel sorry for the innocent people who suffer because some relgious and poltical fanactics have to stir up gigantic sh_t storms.

IMO Bush\'s daddy should have killed the a-hole 10 years ago.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Y\'know ... it hits me close to home because I come from a family of military and we\'re extremely patriotic -- but it\'s been bullshit after bullshit my entire life -- Kennedy shot, Watergate, now this rabid dog ... I wish I could have some faith but I don\'t see any reason to have any faith at all. Is ANYTHING said about this war not a lie? Worse, I\'m ashamed of the US\'s conduct. I\'ve never felt like I had to hang my head as an American before in my life.
Somebody tell me I\'m wrong...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

FTR - I don\'t disagree with any of your points. Saddam is definately a total sh*thead who should be drawn and quartered. Personally I think that it\'s the fanatics that are to blame. I can\'t blame some Iraqi woman living in a clay hut who\'s only goal in life is to raise her children, and see them succeed. It\'s not her fault that she\'s ruled by a psychotic dictator...
There are a lot of countries with WOMD but we aren\'t bombing N. Korea, China, India, Pakistan, France, or any of the other nuclear capable countries. We funded the Al-Quaeda when they were defending Afghanistan from the Russians. Our last payment was in the neighborhood of $130 million in August of 2001... Middle eastern peoples and muslims do not hate the western world. Many of them aspire to live here (USA, UK, Canada, Etc..) It is the crazy fanatics with violent intentions in their souls that create this havoc. This is not limited to any one racial/religious group (there are plenty of christian, jewish, and other orthodox clans that use violence to push their ideas across)
The only way to true world peace is through understanding and acceptance of other people\'s ideas and beliefs. Unfortunately war pays a better dividend to the stockholders.

[Whitehall]

Saddam is NOT stupid nor is he crazy.

He is ambitious and he is ruthless. His ambition is to unite the Arab world under his control, much as his childhood hero Nasser intended to do. That was also the prime idea behind the Baarth party, of which he was an early member. After reading a history of Iraq (\"The Reckoning\") he deserves full credit for governing a very unruly and barely civilized assemblage of vastly different ethnic groups with long histories of hate and conflict.

Our stated goal of regime change is one that I advocated before the Gulf War - I was disappointed when it didn\'t happen. However, we could live with the man in power if he was sufficiently de-fanged and brought to heel. He still has that option but it will disappear quickly.

I would like to point out that Iraq was well along on a nuclear weapons program at the close of the Gulf War. It\'s been 4 years since the last on-site inspections. The original Manhattan project where the US took a very shakey discovery from the lab and turned it into an effective weapon of war along with the necessary infrastructure took only 4 years. That\'s was 60 years ago - today, it\'s much easier. There is no reason why Iraq can not have nuclear weapons TODAY.

Note that a nuclear weapon can be delivered just about anywhere these days - on foot. Iraq\'s weapons will be bigger for technical reasons but he need not have long range missiles to threaten the US or Europe.

Europe\'s resistance to Bush\'s initiatives are puzzling given what I see as their deeper self-interest. It looks to me like they are either burying their heads in the sand or they think that rising American hegemony is a bigger threat. The trends in Europe makes it look like their democracies are slipping away under the EU bureaucracy anyway. Personally, I support Bush\'s position toward Europe and the UN, \"Lead, follow, or get out of the way!\"

The big problem with an Iraq invasion will be ruling the place once Saddam is out. I certainly expect a solid political plan from the Administration BEFORE we go in although I understand why they would have to keep that secret. It will be difficult and I expect semi-partitioning into semi-automonous states. We will be controlling the Iraqi oil production which will lessen the power of the House of Saud. Pickup this month\'s Atlantic Monthly for a good overview of the issues.

It won\'t be pretty. But like Condolezza Rice said, \"We can\'t let the next smoking gun be a mushroom cloud.\"

[a.k.a.]

Well, FTR, don’t forget that you asked. Otherwise I’d keep all this to myself.

This “war” is positively horrible. The people of Iraq still haven’t recovered from the last turkey shoot. Because our government has been at the forefront in imposing a crippling sanctions regime.

Two UN supervisors of the Food for Oil program have resigned in protest over the brutality of these sanctions. A former US Attorney general has petitioned for an international tribunal to try the Bush I regime for war crimes. (For details see Ramsey Clark’s “The Fire Next Time”.

It’s really no wonder that Bush II can’t find international support for this act of naked agression and I firmly believe that history will judge us the same way we judge those Germans that remained silent during Hitler’s reign of terror.

Some facts that barely require any research.

Saddam’s worst crimes were committed while he was still our ally.
Saddam’s military position is far weaker today than it was before the Gulf War, and it was no problem decimating his forces.
The September 24, 2002 dossier issued by the British government (on which the October 4, 2002 report by the CIA was based) has been proven false by Hans Von Sponeck, the former UN humanitarian coordinator for Iraq. He visited two of the sites that were reportedly rebuilt and found that they were still destroyed. British reporters visiting other sites on the dossier found nothing suspicious (Guardian, 9/25/2).

I don\'t know why the Bush administration is going through with this madness. Maybe it\'s the oil. Maybe it\'s to get Republicans elected. Maybe it\'s to detract from the failures of the so called War on Terrorism. (Bin Laden is wherabouts unknown, Mullah Omar escaped Kabul on a bicycle, Americans are at greater risk than ever, the Saudis that financed the attack are still sitting pretty, everybody hates us for picking on the most defensless Muslim country in the world and our economy is going down the tubes.)

Enough for now. I’m getting a sick headache.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok, long as it\'s not just me. I look at the situation and think I must be losing my mind, this just can\'t be true.I just really needed a reality check.I don\'t know what to do except continue to vote Democrat, which doesn\'t seem to be helping anything...I heard some quip from a comedian about bombing Afghanistan - that the whole country was nothing but rocks anyway, why bomb it? To make more rocks so the people have something to throw at each other...and I\'m thinking, it\'s true! They have NOTHING and we\'re bombing the hell out of their nothing. Jesus wept, how can we do this to people? It\'s not that I don\'t understand the necessity for war. But I can\'t figure out what the hell this is really all about.Saddam\'s a bastard and all but ... there\'s bubonic plague in NY. How\'d it get there? Can\'t get to my job because of bomb threats in the morning in DC. This guy doesn\'t seem like the type to shove against the wall and make threats to. He doesn\'t much care what he does -- not that we do, either, apparently. Whitehall, don\'t lose patience with my naivete, if it strikes you as such --why would it be a bad idea for the arab nations to unite under one leadership and have weapons of mass destruction. The rest of us are similarly placed. They maybe just want what Europe and the US has. Why should they not have it? Do you really think they\'d nuke us? And then what? Say they did, or they planned to. Nuke the US and then do what?

[druid]

sadam strikes me as the kind of manic that would bomb the world if he could not rule it himself -- that is why he should not be in power. Other countries hae WOMD but how many of them have the history that sadam has? how many how them have as poor of relations with us as iraq? It is not the fact that they have WOMD but the fact that they are probably crazy enough to use them. Also I believe that the majority of the arab countries are taking apart in this \"jihad\" (maybe not the politcal leaders but maybe leaders of other sorts -- perhaps relgious). How many of the hijackers were saudi? What is border patrol like on the pakistian and afgan border? it doesn\'t not even exist. hell there is more security on the US and canadian border for god\'s sake. And they should be glad that western countries by so much oil from them. What else do they have that could be a major export? They live in a desert and it is pretty fcked up. I believe that the people of the arab nations should have what people in the western world have. A chance to better their lives and the lives of their families. A chance to believe in what they want to believe. This will never happen as long as these poltical and relgious fanatics run those countries. That is why they (referning to the leaders most of the arab countries and other prominet people -- sadam, arafat, bin laden) constantly fight with Israel. That is why they are trying to drag the rest of the world into their fight. Their fcking \"jihad\". They need it. They need it to remain in power and continue to live like kings while the people live like [censored]. But the people are too busy fighting their \"jihad\" so they never realize that the reason they don\'t have sh_t is because they are being opressed, not by israel, not by the US or western civilation, but by money/power hungry relgious fanatics and mongers trying to control the oil. And if the US can step in and set some things striaght and stop this BS, and give the people of these countries a better life, then so be it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I did immigration law one summer as a paralegal before I got into IP law -- this sweatshop firm hoaxed me with a halfway decent starting salary but the promise of a whopping incredible increase at the end of the summer if I did well. Dollar signs in my eyes, I cranked it up to rock and roll and slammed on it all day long, put in a good 60 hour week the entire summer, making every minute count. When the summer was over, they laid me off. HA! Joke\'s on me. Now I get my money up front. But the entire caseload was Saudi doctors on H1B visas, double filed -- we\'d file the temporary work visa and along with it, the long term permanent resident visa, so by the time the temporary one ran out, the green card would be coming. We filed via Federal Express with formal requests to expedite. I helped bring in several hundred Saudi\'s that summer. I\'m wondering now what else was on their agenda. The whole time, I\'m thinking to myself, why would a wealthy Saudi want to go practice general medicine in, e.g., Bumf*ck Alabama? Some of the clients were very pushy, they\'d call me up every other day to ask me how it was going, had I heard, etc. It kept feeling \"off\" to me -- they were well-spoken, beautiful, perfect English ... desperate to get to some way out of the way hospital in the sticks. ...Where does Saddam think he\'s gonna live if he nukes the world? I don\'t see what anybody has to gain by using nuclear weapons. It\'s not like you could contain the contamination. If it\'s just a matter of taking Saddam out ... wouldn\'t it be more efficient to pay an assasin?I don\'t buy and never did the whole Bin Laden thing. Right. He\'s supposedly sitting around in Afghanistan somewhere, picking lint out of his navel, and we can\'t find him, nobody knows where he is. Something tells me he got the hell outta Dodge, wouldn\'t you? Afghanistan\'s the last place I\'d look for him. Why would he be there? I swear the whole deal stinks. It smells to me like what happened is he\'s a decoy -- a figure made up for us to focus our outrage on -- and I would not be surprised, talk about ruthless -- if 9/11 was a set up on our own government\'s part to give us an immediate reason to go to war. I don\'t believe in Osama Bin Laden. We never wanted to find him. He was an instrument we used to rile people.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Amen FTR - I\'m glad to see that some of the American public is not entirely blind. There is definately something amiss in our government, what it is I don\'t know. I\'m not a conspiracy nut by any measure, but I can smell a rat...and this whole 9/11 war on terrorism (an endless war) plus the induction of the \"Patriot Act\" (look into it - it\'s some scary ass sh*t) just makes me doubt the leaders of our so called democratic republic.

[Whitehall]

I\'m getting a real kick out of the recent audio broadcast by \"bin Laden\" threatening to harm more of our allies. That is a completely stupid thing to do politically - it will help to solidify the coalition against him and strenghten the US\'s hand. Just as the explosion in Bali activated the Australian government due to the deaths of so many young Australians

The alternative explaination is that the tape was CIA political disinformation. It really played into the hands of the US government and the world is looking to the US government to determine it\'s authenticity. Frankly, I\'m so proud of our spooks!

As to the uniting of the Arab world, it is their decision as to \"if\" but we\'ll have an interest in \"how.\" The Arab body politic is hardly ready for civil society let alone representative democracy. The world would love broad political evolution there from it\'s relative primitive state today. Saddam would use the sword and would create another \"Evil Empire.\" We just finished a 50 year Cold War against one such tyranny at tremendous cost to American society - invest the cost of one fallout shelter in 1952 at $10,000 and 6% and today it would be worth over a million $.

As to immigration, this has been one of the greatest sell-outs of Americans\' paternity ever. My US citizenship is one of the greatest assets I have - my ancestors fought in the wars from the Revolution on, worked hard to saved and built this country. Yet special interests and politicians have approved massive waves of cheap labor to cut wages and salaries and to crowd our cities. Lot\'s of very good people - to individuals I bear no grudge and count many as friends and neighbors and try to help them feel at home. Yet, one poorly educated American I met put it well, \"America is a great place - so long as you\'re not an American.\" By that she meant the our poor and lower orders have paid the largest costs of imiigration.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The INS is a JOKE. When I was first learning to fill the forms out, I\'d ask a lot of questions -- I remember the attorney losing her temper with me and saying \"Write \'MAN IN THE MOON\' in that blank! Can\'t you see, it doesn\'t MATTER?\" Oh. Ok, man in the moon, your world, I just live in it ... the volume the INS is processing is so extremely high there\'s no way, it\'s not physically, humanly possible, to do a good job. If the blanks are all filled in and nothing is glaringly wrong, they take your money and process the paperwork, no questions asked.

It\'s not just the lower end jobs -- there are huge numbers of immigrants in medicine and scientific research as well.

[druid]

I would not consider the INS a joke because I find nothing funny about it. It is more like bull sh_t. How the fck did all those hijackers get into this country anyway? How does a guy say to someone that \"I want to learn how to fly commerical jets, but I am not interested in learning how to land them??\" without raising some supsicions. The government is such a complex buracercy it makes me sick to my stomach. But there is one group of policticans that has caught my attention. The Green party. I was listening to ralph nader speak on CSPAN a couple months ago and he makes so much sense. The one thing I like best is that the Green party does not accept money from big business/special interests. They collect dues from the members of the party per year (I think the min. is like $50 a year). I like that because since they are gettin money from me and not special interest groups then they are looking out for me and not special interest groups. Would have nipped that Enron thing in the bud, huh? Don\'t get me started on the rest of our government or I might vomit. I love what america stands for (offically stands for -- you know the consitution) but I HATE what it has become. Funny when I look at the constution then I look at the present state of our gonernment I don\'t see the same thing. It needs to be fixed.

[belgareth]

Druid,

I agree with you about our government. It is not a government for the people by the people. It is a ruling elite catering to big business in order to line their own pockets at our expense. However, Ralph Nader is not the answer. A portion of the bureaucracy is due to Nader\'s trying to protect us from ourselves. He also helps to perpetuate the ruling class, he\'s been a part of it all of his political career.

We need people in charge that are not part of the political scene. Look at the libertarian party. They have a lot of good ideas about having the average working person serving a term then getting out.

You\'ll hear the argument that inexperienced people will not know how to work within the system and it is true. That\'s the whole point! Take apart the empires and run this country with the good of the people in mind. They may screw it up but could they really do much worse the the clowns running this country today? At least it would more closely resemble what the writers of the constitution wrote about.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Belgareth, funny you should write that. I\'ve been looking at the Libertarian party as well.

The problem I have is this, and maybe you can help: if you vote for the Libertarian party, it is said that is a vote that is thrown away. Because they surely won\'t win. So ... you could have chosen the lesser of two evils between Republicans and Democrats, and perhaps whichever party most dislike between those two wins -- then your conscience is stung because you cast a vote for a sure loser which could have gone toward the lesser of the two evils.

On the other hand, if you don\'t vote for a minority party, how will they ever gain enough numbers to succeed?

I can\'t not vote, after all the women who suffered to give me the right. But sometimes the choices are difficult to say the least.

[druid]

well all I know of ralph nader is what I saw on TV -- I would look more closely into the green party before ever consider joining it. To tell you the truth I know very little of politics, because what I do know comlpetly and utterly disgusts me. One thing that burns we to no end is the LACK of choices when election time comes. You basically have 2 choices -- I know there are other parties but they get so few votes... -- and neither in my opinion is much of choice (because IMO there isn\'t much difference). Bill Maher put it best \"The only difference between republicans and democrats is that democrats are bought by a slightly less scary group of special interests\". It sickens me to no end some of the things that our government supports. One reason I didn\'t vote in the last election (I almost voted for Gore but didn\'t -- some people are gonna hate me for this I live in broward county -- and remember broward and dade counties were the spots in florida that fcked up the election) was when he said in one of the debates \"....I have not spent the last several years of my life in pursit of personal wealth\". WTF?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?! Because you have been busy banging the people of this country out it you DI_K!!!!! and i hated the fact that he kept talking out of turn.....

tell me more about this libertian party.....

[EXIT63]

...--why would it be a bad idea for the arab nations to unite under one leadership and have weapons of mass destruction....

Because they\'re a Bunch of Fuckin Nuts!...That\'s why.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Any country that is not stable both politically and in it\'s people isn\'t a great candidate for looking after a nuke.
But I personally am not scared of nukes, but chem stuff scares the crap outta me.

I don\'t agree with all Arabs being a bunch of nuts, what I do think though is that most religious fanatics (Muslim, catholic etc... take a look at Ireland for another example) are nuts. And sometimes you can lump extreme capitalism in there too. ie, people killing another for $50 etc.. It\'s people who accept only their own beliefs and none other and need to snuff out anyone else to see it through that are the real goons. (reference to Hitler and other nutbars here...)

W

[tounge]

Hey Red, or anyone else. Why, after we defeated Iraq the 1st time, did we not take their oil? Another liberal strawman. BTW, we are at war! We were ruthlessly attacked. Remember?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The war with Iraq is just outrageous:

If Iraq posed a serious threat to the US befor 9/11, why wasn\'t it talked about? Why weren\'t we going to war with Iraq when they kicked out the inspectors in \'98? Why didn\'t we go to war with them when they \"gassed their own people\" in the 1980\'s (as so famously quoted by the Bush crowd)? Ha, we were their allies when Saddam gassed his own people! It\'s such a double standard, it\'s a joke. When it serves our interests (i.e. when you want to deflect criticism of the faltering economy, when you want to keep your sky high approval ratings), you create another enemy.

Al Qaeda remains the real enemy here. Where is proof of an Al Qaeda Saddam link? Have they exchanged weapons in the past?

North Korea has nukes, they have missles, they have a dictator in charge. Yet we aren\'t going to war with them. Why can we deal with that wacky regime peacefully when we threaten war every day with Iraq? The evidence presented so far to justify this \"war\" is thinner than Calista Flockhart after 90 hunger strike.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

90 day hunger strike, lol.

[belgareth]

FTR,

Mine is what I consider a moral position that I try (With only limited success) to apply to my life on a daily basis. You have one vote as do I. The same with everybody else. What would happen if people got off their butts, studied the issues then voted their concience?

Far too many people simply vote a straight party ticket or the lessor of evils because they believe their choice cannot win. My vote would indeed be thrown away if I voted for the lessor of evils. By voting for the candidate I believe is the best choice, I am sending the message that I do not want the obvious choice, I want change. (I do not vote party lines, don\'t get me started on the fallacy of party politics). Maybe the people will one day learn that they do have the power to change things. Perhaps the politicians will see that change is coming and join the band wagon.

If you want things to stay as they are or to continue to decline, go ahead and throw your vote away by voting for the one you think is most likely to win. But remember that an avalance often starts with one tiny snow ball. By voting my concience, I at least can look in the mirror on November 6th and believe I did what was right.

Here\'s a thought for you: Look up the period of unrest prior to the French Revolution and the socio/political conditions related to oppression of the majority and compare it to the trends we see today. Then ask yourself why our government lies to us so much and tries so hard to take guns out of the hands of the people. Careful analysis might frighten you.

Belgareth

[belgareth]

FTR,

One last thought on your question. When you go to a store to purchase an expensive item. If they do not have exactly what you wanted, but give you a choice between two other similar but inferior products for the same price, do you buy there or go elswhere to find what you really wanted?

Isn\'t our government, in a sense, another product you are buying?

Belgareth

[druid]

that is exactly my beef with the current state of our government, THERE IS NO OTHER STORE TO GO TO. I know there are other parties but who votes for them? And would somebody tell me about this libertiain party, it souds interesting. or provide me with a link. thanks.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Belgareth, \'tis a point to ponder.