~ Like a Dream ~

[**DONOTDELETE**]

DrSmellThis, it\'s a fine point, and that you continue to miss it amazes me. I am not trying to punish the unfaithful. As I said earlier, infidelity is not the point. Take a break and go back and read Ghostclown\'s posts. He doesn\'t care what he does to whom. He is not making mistakes. He premeditatively sets about to do destructive things. I\'m not on a crusade to hunt down and punish the unfaithful. I never said anything like that.Why don\'t you and I take it off the board if you\'re going to continue to single me out among the many people who object to Ghostclown?

[Elana]

You are not alone FTR. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[DrSmellThis]

I certainly do not intend to single you out. I thought I even said that. Maybe I forgot to.

If I just missed a bunch of egregious premeditated psychopathic destruction, I stand corrected. I don\'t remember it that way. I wish I had time to go back through the posts. Bye for now. Peace.

[upsidedown]

Yes, hang in there FTR. There are most likely more of us who agree with you than with the other viewpoint.

[Pet]

Oh I guess we\'re just not all so high and mighty to judge people like you my dear Red Head. And it\'s not that he doesn\'t deserve to be called a pig, it\'s just that you really don\'t have the right to do it. Where do you live anyway? Salem?
Pet

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Bite me, Pet.

[Elana]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[druid]

\"..... And it\'s not that he doesn\'t deserve to be called a pig, it\'s just that you really don\'t have the right to do it. \"
Pet

Pet-
Well you acknowledge that he deserve\'s to be called a pig, but yet you condemn FTR for saying the very thing that you are obviously thinking. Obviously you came to same conclusion FTR did. what gives? And if it is true then IMO anybody has the right to say it. It is like the sky is blue but yet you say I have no right to say that.

[Elana]

I thought that was pretty strange thing to say too. What does that even mean? Since when do people in a public forum not have the right to state their opinion? FTR thinks Ghostclown is a disgusting pig (as do I) and has every right to say so.

[proteus]

I think Pet simply means that while we might have the right/ability to condemn/judge someone, it\'s not really our place to do so when you consider the larger order of things, for don\'t we all have discretions/sins we have committed. I\'d wager a bet if we were all privy to the complete and unadulterated life histories of all the members of this board some pretty unsavory things would come up from under the woodworks :-)

[Elana]

That\'s kind of the problem I have with Ghost. It\'s not what he does as much as the fact that he boasts about it. If I were privy to the complete and unadulterated life histories of all the members, I would never judge them, unless of course they came on this forum bragging about how these unsavory things they did made them as proud as a peacock.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

There are men that I know of on the forum who have sex outside their marriages. I\'ve never said one word about it and I never would, nor do I disrespect them for the choice they\'ve made. If you can\'t divorce for whatever the reason, but despite your best efforts to work things out, you\'re not getting sex in your marriage and it goes on for months with no end in sight, I don\'t see why you have to be condemned to a life of celibacy. It\'s a tough call -- the people I know who go outside their marriages regret that they see no other option -- but sometimes it\'s making the best of a bad situation, and in any case, it\'s none of my business. They exercise discretion, though, and don\'t sh*t in their own back yards. Bring it home to yourself, put yourself in the position of being married to a woman who would intentionally screw your brother. For the rest of your life, you can\'t get away from the shame of that. He wants to screw around on his wife, I\'ve got nothing to say about it, don\'t know the circumstances, and things happen in marriages that nobody can understand, it\'s a very private matter. But don\'t set out a plan to plank your spouses\' sister and come on here and ask for help via pheromones, gloat about your potential conquest, and expect no one to boo and hiss. That\'s antisocial behavior. Ditto with \"taboo\" thoughts. Everybody\'s had a stray thought or even maybe enjoyed fantasies about someone it would be inappropriate to have sex with. There\'s no shame and no harm in that and I wouldn\'t jump on someone for talking about it. Further -- if circumstances arise to make it possible, maybe you\'re both drunk or things gather momentum and it just happens -- ok, folks make mistakes, let\'s see if we can repair the damage and move on. But don\'t set out to do it and brag about it, quote philosophers to make you look like you\'re intellectually superior for doing things that would rip up whole families -- that\'s a criminal mentality -- someone who doesn\'t have to exercise any restraint over his impulses or care about the consequences of his behavior because he\'s somehow above all that. We call those people sociopaths. According to the logic of \"don\'t judge, it\'s not your right because you\'re not perfect,\" we\'d all look the other way when the Menendez brothers killed their parents, and they\'d never have come to trial -- because, after all, haven\'t we all had the occasional murderous thought toward our parents when they thwarted us? Well, then, I guess we can\'t say they\'re bad for what they did or get upset for the grief they caused. What gives me the right to call him a pig? His bragging about his antisocial behavior. I don\'t have it in me to sit back and say \"Oh, well. Love ya, man. You\'re cool.\"

[krtel]

Yeah, I hear ya FTR. The main reason this ticks me off is because pheromones were used for a VERY unethical task, which was sucessful. I think it is completely fair to judge someone by the quality of what they say and the quality of their actions. But yeah, I\'m sure you\'ve got several people on your side on this one, I am surely one of them. Just seems like ethics isn\'t on some people\'s list these days.

Now, I bet someone is gonna slam me saying some b/s like ethics is a local thing (a per-person thing) and that I can\'t judge someone using my local set of ethics. Well there is also a thing called common sense, and I think that in this case, common sense can say what ghost did was unethical and was pheromone abuse.

- Krish

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks for that.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Same thing with the \"Applaud me, I got a virgin!\" He met this girl off the internet. Examine this carefully and tell me what you see. He\'s a full grown, married man. Of all the women who could have been available to him, who did he pick for an extramarital dalliance? The woman with NO experience. As contrasted with the scads and hoards of old ho\'s like ... myself, for example! - who\'ve been around the block and back enough times to be a tour guide -- women who understand the game and can play it without getting too involved. From the group of women who advertise for partners on the internet, he picked the woman with the least possible sexual competence, therefore the one most likely to become emotionally attached, and made a sexual conquest that he then came here and bragged about. I\'m going out on a limb here, but I don\'t think it\'s too shaky a limb -- what do you think? did he lay it out plain for her, tell her, look, this is likely to be a one time thing or at best a sporadic hook up -- do you realize what you\'re doing? I\'m probably not the best choice you could make. Nope. He says it took him two days to lay her. He made a concoction for it. He planned and schemed and knew exactly what he was about. Now there\'s an emotional attachment that could cause problems. Well DUH. That was a completely avoidable situation, but he couldn\'t resist the chance to make a conquest and brag about it, never mind the obvious potential for hurt. Oh, yeah - he\'s become emotionally attached, too. Trust me, it will pass. Let\'s hope, for her sake, that she doesn\'t have a pretty sister. It\'s abuse and it\'s intentional and he brags about it. Those of you who put the heat on those of us who are outraged boggle my mind, and I wonder -- is there ANYTHING you feel competent to make a judgment about and come out and say is wrong -- other than to judge those of us who are able?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Do you think maybe I should register with the Phero Offenders list ?
In all this that spills out here I can see how the world has become a over safe place of rules and judgments.
For the most part, most of you are so very far off on who she is and who I am and how we met and how we feel.
I can see how wars start and how anger grows from simple judgments. I may not fit in the norm of this part of the world, however I hold no such anger as I have found here. I hold on tight and let go lightly and mostly never look back. I am a free sprit and I live as I live and sleep deep and well.
Ghost

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That makes sense -- with no conscience to keep you awake at night, why shouldn\'t you sleep well. What planet are you from, originally? Where is the place where you fit in the norn?

[a.k.a.]

Not that I have any new insights to offer. But it’s hard to see all these posts and not throw my two cents in.

ghostclown,
Not to defend Nietzche, (a third rate aphorist IMO) but his point was to unmask the arbitrary power relations that hid behind morality. It’s well known that he espoused his own harsh morality and was caustically judgmental against anybody that didn’t measure up ( see, for example, the Madman’s rant against the “killers of God” in Thus Spoke Zarathustra).

With regards to cracking up...
The least we could expect is some kind of breech in your ego defenses. Let’s face it. They were way too grandiose to begin with. Now the idealistic purity of your “transgression” has found its sublime object to be nothing more than a tight ass.

But maybe this is a good thing. You could use a good dose of realism. Maybe you’re just over-reacting to normal marital, sex-life doldrums.

Maybe not.
Like FTR says: Why a virgin? Why the need to make an impression? Why did it take two days? And why is it that your adventures are always about some foolproof plan of seduction that is its own end? Why can\'t you be satisfied with a little coochie like the rest of us?
Does reality presents too many contingencies? Feelings. Wives. Social mores. Virgins that say “no” on the first night...

On the first day the virgin said “no”. On the second day you had some kind of dream. I shudder to think what really happened.

I have to admit, the doomed fatalism of your self congratulation (“I shall never be this lucky again, in this life.”) is ROTF funny. But I’m concerned with this sudden shift into the passive voice. You’ve got to admit, it’s just not like you. Your Masterplan has worked and suddenly you find yourself the Victim of Circumstance. What happened? How does the Master of seduction suddenly find himself the Slave of “attachment”?

Maybe the Master never existed. Maybe he was just a phantasmic projection — a ghost — of a man that felt himself stifled in marriage. Like Hegel (a real philosopher) pointed out, the most radical transgression is laying down the Law. In other words, mocking other people’s values is just an empty gesture unless you yourself stand for something. If your marriage is a joke, get out. If not, quit playing around. Lay that ghost to rest.

Like I said, a good time for realism. Nietzche is dead. And the true measure of your luck is that you’re still married. If this pointless little fling is enough to crack you up, imagine what a divorce could do.


Dr,
I agree that it’s pretty scary how easily genocide breezes through the moral fiber. But I’m not so sure the board’s reaction is a case of displaced animosities.

Think about why ghostclown chose this forum as his audience. It’s not just the pheromones. It’s the celebration of seduction and a generally libertine attitude towards sex. He wants to be like us, more than us.
People are saying, “No! That’s not what we’re about. Your kind has no place here.”
It is a defensive reflex for sure, but it’s not necessarily hypocritical or self deceptive. Either the line has to be drawn somewhere, or anything goes.
If you want to argue that anything goes. Argue that anything goes. If you think the line should be drawn somewhere else, why can’t you defend ghostclown’s actions?
Your “judge not least ye be judged” argument is basically in line with ghostclown’s assumption that we only wish we could be so bold.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

a.k.a., your lucidity is restorative. Thanks for an excellent post.-

[ccbythesea]

Bravo, aka!!!

This may seem a little too simplistic to SOME men but it\'s very obvious to me that GC hates women. It\'s the kind of controlling, manipulating hatred that can lead to all manner of abuse not the least of which is rape.

I am in no way ashamed to say that I ABHOR the degradation of women in any form and am utterly repulsed by those who perpetrate it (and/or defend it). GC has some real sick needs that have absolutely nothing to do with sex. It actually scares me as much as it sickens me and I don\'t scare easily. There\'s nothing I can think of more dangerous to women than men who hate them.

But of course I\'m probably being too \"hard\" or too \"judgemental\" or too \"morally\" grounded where GC is concerned; and maybe all of us women (and the men who truly like, love and appreciate us) should just give GC a shrug and blow off all the deviant implications of his behavior. Well, not THIS woman.......not in THIS lifetime.

Peace, love and good karma to y\'all,
CC

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I see the same things and I get sick over them for the same reasons, and sickened by the folks who would defend him.

[Pet]

A little late (I was asleep on this end) but thank you Proteus for explaining so correctly what I had in mind when I wrote that little comment. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
Pet

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My time here is all but threw, Adventure await me and so I shall soon slip down life\'s rabbit hole for whatever may come.

It is interesting to read the many posts brought on by such few words.

I am not sure why but A.K.A.\'s words had a nice ring to them. Maybe he is some sort of Grandpa Walton blown back as a New Age Type..... And I think we all know who would play Mary Ellen so very well, however did she have red hair ?

Don\'t Worry ......... Be Happy

I Shall Return

~Ghostclown~

[proteus]

you\'re welcome and glad I understood you correctly :-)

[krtel]

You shall return? Noooo please don\'t, lets make it easy for us all. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

- Krish

[Elana]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] As long as he has his one fan, he will continue to grace us with his classy presence.

[DrSmellThis]

I am very angry right now, unfortunately. FTR, you spew about how \"people\" (me) who \"defend\" G \"sicken\" you, arguing that I am a coward because I don\'t stand up for Right, when my posts NEVER had anything to do with those issues! Though I am speaking the truth, it\'s a waste to even try to clarify it to you. You really, really don\'t get it. You are acting arrogant about precisely your ignorance. (What you accuse that guy of).

I am not condemning people, because I just don\'t. I am defending no one\'s actions, and I said that. It is not OK for you to say again that I am. Frankly, I do and have reacted negatively to some things G has said. If you think my \"failing\" to judge a person as a bad person or condone their ongoing flogging in our forum = \"not standing up\" for good things, you are being ignorant. You are acting in a really insulting manner. The \"Judge not\" thing has nothing to do with judging what is wise/unwise to do. You know that unless you are brain dead.

Proving G did something \"wrong,\" however wrong it was, does not give you the right to judge them, call them \"pig,\' pull together a vicious public mocking, and all that other stuff. You think doing that makes you virtuous?

Most arguments in favor of this judgement have been of the form, \"If he was only doing x that would be understandable, but he did x + y which really IS wrong. So we are right to publically mock him and/or to say he is a bad person.\"

Great logic! Whatever. Have your feeding frenzy. Get yourself off.

If they bragged about their mistakes, that changes nothing, except perhaps that they have made another mistake by bragging. If the fact that someone\'s bragging about their unwise actions pubically annoys you, say that! But I\'m bothered by your public judgements of persons and feeding frenzies in a forum where I spend so much time trying to contribute something.

Who elected you public flogger? You\'ve done this more than once before.

That\'s not standing up in my book, and that doesn\'t impress me as being particularly virtuous. It\'s shallow BS to say you were just being angry, and that I don\'t want you to have feelings. Moralistic wrath by humans is BS. It\'s just arrogance getting off on finding somebody you can get away with abusing. People go along with it. It helps nothing. Refraining from public ridicule does not = good men doing nothing.

That is really lame to have said that about me. I will not put up with that any more. I have recently been exhausted from helping suicidal people, abused women and children most every day and I am in no mood for your BS about me. I stand up for what I believe in; and protect people every day. That doesn\'t make me special, but, who do you think you are? Your incessant narcissistic attempts to dominate the whole forum, putting others down constantly in subtle and nt-so-subtle ways, are annoying. Get a hobby, Ms Queen of every situation! I really don\'t care if I never read another post by you.

I may well leave this forum myself. It\'s not as interesting or fun as it was. I sincerely apologize to everyone else having to read this ugliness. I will try harder to avoid such situations.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, that would be a shame. Your knowledge of pheromones and perfumery is valued. Sorry you\'re so upset. I hope you feel better.

[Elana]

Just curious as to why that post was addressed to FTR, when you see that many people feel the same way she does about GC, like myself?

[CptKipling]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

I may well leave this forum myself. It\'s not as interesting or fun as it was. I sincerely apologize to everyone else having to read this ugliness. I will try harder to avoid such situations.

<hr></blockquote>

This has got about stupid enough. There have been so many stupid, repetitive, boring, ignorent threads recently. Doc, you have my respect for standing up for yourself like that. People are entitled to their oppinion, and may go about freely with these beliefs, but the minute they act on these beliefs to other people (predjudice comes to mind), they bring themselves into question. Personal attacks are wrong, but most people are guilty, me included. Repeated attacks and mob mentality are even worse.

I for one am tiring of this increasingly repetive and ignorent forum, and I don\'t particularly care if this kicks up no fuss at all.