What do Women Want?

[a.k.a.]

FTR,
“Creating a persona” is an excellent description of what we do.

A persona is a fictional character. Not necessarily an ingenuine person. Not necessarily a lie. Just somebody that exists only in the imagination.
Persons are real. Personas are imaginary (not necessarily false). But there’s a connection. We wouldn’t be much if we didn’t imagine ourselves to be something.

Last year about this time I interviewed for my current job. My first managerial position. Among other things, I projected myself as someone that was almost anal about organization. Yet nothing in my life is organized: my kitchen cupboards, my bills, car maintenance, yoga... I wake up when my alarm goes off and that’s the extent of my organization.
So did I lie? Well... I just had an evaluation that says I didn’t. I can account for productivity down to 15 minute blocks, expenses down to coffee filters, software updates, conference room schedules, etc..
The point is I had an image of the ideal manager for the job. I sold it to my interviewers and then I played it out.

We grow up with images of the good child, the smart student, cool teenager, sexy college student, realistic adult... whatever. We play these images out. Modeling, imagery, and symbolism are the basis of personality development. We always forever create, and recreate, ourselves, but sometimes we forget (or deny) that it\'s a process. Often we grow attached to a particular image and are scared of letting it go.

Never saw “Swingers”, but I can agree that fastseduction won’t make me a happy man. But what is this “real me” that some woman might appreciate. Do I have to outline my life from childhood to now? List my feelings and perceptions?
No. I just have to project something that captures her imagination. (“Sweet smile. I bet he’s a nice guy.” “Funny story. Bet he’d be fun to hang out with.”) If I imagine myself to be the fun person that I want her to “see” me as, is that ingenuine? It certainly isn’t “exhausting and fruitless”. Playing off an image in my mind is much easier than memorizing pick-up techniques and a lot more fruitful than trying to get people to understand the depth of my character. Because there’s no bottom.

Your assumption is that there’s something hidden beneath the persona. Yes there are real feelings, real knowledge, real intelligence, real history, real trauma, habitual behavior, linguistic patterns, etc.. Maybe these are hidden, maybe not. But there\'s no \"real me\" or \"real you\" waiting to be revealed. We always forever have to make ourselves. As Sartre used to say, “existence precedes essence”. We don’t know the person we are until we become it, and at that point we could be something else.
“Subjectivity is the abyss of freedom”. If we were all like Popeye (“I am what I am, and that’s all I am.”) ethics would be pointless.
From an existential point of view, the ingenuine person is the one that says, “I can’t even keep my sox in order. There’s no way I could be a good office manager.” “I’m a pedantic little bookworm. There’s no way that party girl would enjoy hanging out with me.”

We all want to be loved for “what we are”. But, in relationships, “what we are” is in the eye of the beholder.
My last girlfriend dumped me shortly after I quit my last job. Her first reaction was, “What’s gotten into you? How can you just quit a job without any other prospects in sight.”
I can appreciate the shock. She thought she knew me, then suddenly she thought she didn’t. Yet, in my mind, I was being totally consistent. “You know how much I hate that place. Did you think I was going to spend the rest of my life there?”

You say confidence is more important than good looks. Maybe you would say that love is even more important. I’m not negating that.
But I believe that what we crave more than any of those things is something ineffable. Something that we don’t quite have a clear picture of until we \"see\" it. Then we’ll know it’s what we’ve been yearning for all along.
Have you never fallen for a guy that you didn’t expect to, then promptly figured out what made him so irresistible? (If it\'s so obvious, why didn\'t you see it coming?)

Most people don’t realize that there’s a fundamental lack at the heart of all desire. Paradoxically, the more they don’t realize it, the more they are driven by it. To manipulate them you simply inscribe some meaning to that lack. (ie. “Beef. It’s what’s for dinner.” “Attack Iraq. Then the world will be safer.”)
To avoid being manipulated, it does no good to be suspicious of other people’s motives. The point is to understand our own motives. (ie. “I sure am tired of processed foods.” “I sure miss the days when Americans were welcomed.”)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\"I don\'t give a damn about his looks. I just like him. \"

Yes but that\'s not getting him laid...

[sophie]

what an interesting discussion evolved on this thread!!! I must admit my original post was mostly from boredom, and I apologize if it made life/relationships seem too simplistic (I hate that so called word simplistic but it seems to fit here). But what a treasure of sincere and true thoughts have been put down here. And I feel I should add also, that I certainly have no prejudice against good looking people!!! Just that many of the most special people I know are not necessarily beautiful or handsome, but inner beauty is something I value.
On the other hand, inner ugliness is something I detest.
Beauty definitely is in the eye of the beholder (trite and very true).

I agree with the theory that if you work on your self/body to please yourself, that is a positive thing. It took me many years to realize that improving myself for my own sake, and not to please others, was the way to go. It makes all the difference in the world.

Example:

Story of two women:

one:age 17 Went to model in California at age 15. Came back as a freakish looking 16 year old with heavy pancake makeup, dyed dark hair, wears blond wigs a la Britney Spears, look like she had facial surgery to give her slanted/almond eyes. Impossible to talk to (no personality), she has to run to the bathroom every 15 minutes to check her makeup and hair, really sad.

Two: age 40:

Was a pleasantly attractive 37year old whose husband wanted her to have a boob job. Now at age 40 it\'s obvious she got carried away and has had facial tucks (more than one, and she looked fine before), is anorexic ( looks odd with giant boobs), has a strange looking salon tan, and looks like a caricature of a human being. I am not condemning any of this \"improvement\" on its own merits, but she is trying to mold herself into some kind of super Barbie doll (which is what she looks like, not like a human being) and there is evidence she is doing it all only for someone else, and not for herself. Sad story.

Please someone tell me if I\'m being overly judgmental, but these two women make me very sad because it\'s obvious they don\'t value themselves for WHO they are, beyond their looks.

Everyone\'s reality is different, and people do see us somewhat as they want to see us. I have a friend who is convinced I should be a politician, which is the furthest thing in the world from who I really am. I think what she means is I am diplomatic and can see both sides of an issue. But politician, NO. (and don\'t forget to vote Nov 5!!).

well, I have a lot of thoughts on this topic, but GG for now!!

see ya tomorrow, same Bat time, same Bat channel....

Exit, write us another poem, loved the ones from Saturday late (Sunday AM).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok maybe threads like this need seperating into guys that women \"like\" and guys that women end up \"getting laid with\"

I think further classification needs to happen and then therefore see what sort of responses, any guy can be liked and attractive to a woman (me included) but its the ones that get laid often that im interested in

Are they attractive or less attractive in the body sense (muscles well endowed symetrical) or are they funny and butt ugly but remember the fat italians with the gold chains that get laid all the time (lots of hair but ugly fat but they pump out so much sweat - pheromones) that women get laid with them and often.

[sophie]

OK, since you asked, and I\'ve had a drink, I\'ll tell you what I think. I work with sweaty, (some) hairy guys (they work outside, I work inside) and pheromones RULE. I have learned to smell natural pheros now, and believe me, they are real, and they work for making women horny. (I might delete this post later, so read now).

also, I take back what I said about grooming; met the most scruffy, beautiful young man today, picture a dark haired Brad Pitt with Jesus beard and long hair, gorgeous amber eyes (and sweet behaviour too). He\'d been sitting in a manhole (utility hole for the PC) all day, so wasn\'t so clean but MAN! He had dirt on his cheek and I just wanted to, you know, give him a bath, Um, whatever....like I said, read this now....I\'ll probably delete....and to answer invalididea, I don\'t even look at muscles, it\'s the package....and I\'ve always liked a soft rubbable hairy tummy as opposed to a six pack.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

To quote sophie so that this thread isnt deleted later and everyone can read in its full glory.
Something for when she sobers up.

\"OK, since you asked, and I\'ve had a drink, I\'ll tell you what I think. I work with sweaty, (some) hairy guys (they work outside, I work inside) and pheromones RULE. I have learned to smell natural pheros now, and believe me, they are real, and they work for making women horny. (I might delete this post later, so read now).

also, I take back what I said about grooming; met the most scruffy, beautiful young man today, picture a dark haired Brad Pitt with Jesus beard and long hair, gorgeous amber eyes (and sweet behaviour too). He\'d been sitting in a manhole (utility hole for the PC) all day, so wasn\'t so clean but MAN! He had dirt on his cheek and I just wanted to, you know, give him a bath, Um, whatever....like I said, read this now....I\'ll probably delete....and to answer invalididea, I don\'t even look at muscles, it\'s the package....and I\'ve always liked a soft rubbable hairy tummy as opposed to a six pack. \"

End quote.

[sophie]

Haha...OK, now I can\'t reneg, well, OK, I\'ve been wanting to \"come out\" and admit my lust anyway. It\'s just so difficult working around sweaty men all day. I\'ve finally understood how 18 year old guys feel, it\'s torment, but I try to stay civilized and \"keep it in my pants\".

Am I a slut if I have \"lust in my heart?\" I don\'t act on it, but I sure do think about it!

[upsidedown]

Hey Sophie!

Have you been around any of the artificial men\'s pheromones that we all talk about on here to give us any insight as to which of them provides the closest match to the real thing?

It would be great if you could sample them all for us and tell us which gives you the best overall buzz. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t play where I work, so the guy who amuses me so much is out of the question -- that\'s why he\'s not getting laid. If we didn\'t work together, I would ask him out.

What makes the difference between who gets laid and who doesn\'t is this (are you ready?): the one who makes the move is the one who gets laid. You can chit and chat all night long and have a perfectly lovely evening if that\'s what you want .... or you can give her a goodbye kiss that will make her head spin and see if she invites you in for \"coffee.\" The more direct the move, usually the better well received. Let her know by physical actions that you want her. To quote Exit: shut up and kiss her.

That generally works.

[sophie]

I wish I knew....just today I got H&H (hypnotized and horny) as in DIHL, from smelling some guy. It is so strange how knowing about pheros really makes them evident. This guy doesn\'t always bathe or launder regularly (I know him pretty well). But oh, the smell made me faint. It was just a man smell (not the Brad Pitt guy). You see my quandary, I\'m surrounded by natural pheros, it\'s too much.

I should probably order something with -rone in it to see how that smells. That\'s one I\'m not too familiar with. I just smell \"natural man\" and I\'m a goner now.

Damn those pheros!!! Maybe all you guys should just acclimate your females to ALL phero smells and they\'ll be as lustful as I am.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My boss was standing in front of me giving me detailed instruction about a case and I was looking at him, paying close attention, and feeling like I must be drooling ... mesmerized ... he had on this beautiful denim shirt, very soft, perfect color with his eyes, but the texture of that shirt that he was wearing with the collar open ... whew. All I could think about was what it would feel like to slip my hand inside his shirt and touch his chest, damn near drove me crazy. Sometimes at work it\'s like ... white knuckled and gritting your teeth, the men can make you feel so wild.

What\'s a poor girl to do.

[EXIT63]

...I don\'t play where I work, so the guy who amuses me so much is out of the question -- that\'s why he\'s not getting laid. If we didn\'t work together, I would ask him out...

I bet if you told him that, He would resign today. lol

[EXIT63]

...Am I a slut if I have \"lust in my heart?\" I don\'t act on it, but I sure do think about it!...

You\'re not a slut until you spread your legs. Dream on sweetie...Dream on.

Sophie my Dear, I know it\'s a long shot. But do you know any single ladies that are exactly like you. Because I certainly would like to meet one. Then my life would be complete.

Now who\'s dreaming.

[proteus]

>>>>>>Invalidide wrote: Ok maybe threads like this need seperating into guys that women \"like\" and guys that women end up \"getting laid with\"

I think further classification needs to happen and then therefore see what sort of responses, any guy can be liked and attractive to a woman (me included) but its the ones that get laid often that im interested in >>>>>END QUOTE>>>>>

Exactly. As the old saying goes, \" look at what women do, not what they say \" when it comes to the guys they date/have sex with. And you can \"make a move\" all you want and will still get nowhere if you are in the category of \"nice guy\". As for all this advice about be who you really are - does anyone really know the answer to this?? Who or what is the real you?? I believe in constantly evolving, improving myself, eliminating behaviour, attitudes, beliefs etc that do not serve me, and adding those that do and so read constantly, everything, the stuff at fastseduction, layguide, askmen, philosophy/metaphysics, etcetc. using what I find useful, discarding what I don\'t. I\'ve found that what works with women is being \"alpha\" - not being an a**hole/jerk per se, but being alpha. Sure some nice guys get laid etc. but the amount of bs they have to go through and effort they have to exert I just don\'t have time for - so I use pheros, use the stuff I learn, and be the alpha and I date/get laid as often as \" I choose \" by doing the things that women want from the guys they generally end up dating/having sex with. Now I know I\'m not being pc but I really don\'t care - this is what I have learnt from the so-called \"dating scene\". Anyway, very interesting thread and always interesting to read what the ladies have to say even though I may disagree with y\'all completely :-)

[EXIT63]

... Now I know I\'m not being pc but I really don\'t care...

Being PC is for a%sholes.
Whatever you do. Don\'t be PC. and you\'ll be better off.

IMHO...It\'s the PC crowd that is destroying this nation.
Excuse me now...I have to run out and vote for Al Gore. After all, he did invent the internet..

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\"don\'t be PC and you\'ll be better off\"that\'s what I\'m talking about. Be yourself. Don\'t pretend to think things you don\'t or like things you don\'t because you think that it what someone wants to hear or what someone wants you to be like. I understand that your \"self\" is constantly evolving. But by \"be yourself,\" I mean react genuinely from your heart/gut, that\'s all. Which is at the core of being alpha. An alpha guy gives the message \"This is who I am, what I do, how I feel -- it\'s all right if you love me, and it\'s all right if you don\'t.\" Not something he has to be belligerent about. Just that he presents an integrated whole, and won\'t be jerked around, and won\'t jerk other people around.Could be you don\'t know who you are if you\'ve spent your life trying to be what everybody wants you to be, in which case the advice to \"be yourself\" would give you a problem, for sure.And generally the guy who makes his move is not stuck in LJBF. He\'s found out whether he\'s going to be accepted or rejected sexually, and if rejected, has moved on.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

FTR - good point. That\'s the attitude that has always worked for me. Be like the Fonz eyyyyyyy. If you aren\'t afraid of rejection, you won\'t be rejected as often. I dated a girls for a few weeks. I told her I was happy just dating, and she wasn\'t the only one I was seeing. As soon as I started thinking about being exclusive and worrying if she felt the same way, the whole thing fell apart. Why? Because I went from being alpha (\"if it works great, if not no biggy\") to a worried little boy who wanted her to like me. She lost interest. I saw her over the weekend while out with friends, and I was getting hits all over the place from other women - well now she\'s jealous, and interested again.

[proteus]

That\'s exactly what puzzles me about women. If they responded positively to the non-alpha type guy maybe things would be much simpler and all this \"gaming\" by guys would stop, but in general this is not the case. Every time I\'ve ever tried to play it straight the end result is loss of interest by her, backing off/flaking out, taking you for granted, not giving you her \"time\" etc. whereas if I do the opposite (i.e. be an alpha, a challenge) then she is pursuing me like crazy. And guys tell women this all the time and some of the ladies learn and look at what they do/make some changes, but most will \"say\" one thing, and then keep on again and again dating/having sex with the guy they \"say\" they would never give the time of day too..Anyway, if ya love women as much as I do you just gotta accept that :-)

[CptKipling]

Damnit! I missed this thread!

Picking up from FTR\'s points:

Women want and appriciate a secure man. Hell everyone values security. But most people dont understand what this means. Just as FTR said, you need to establish your own beliefs and ideals away from the crowd, thus setting you apart and making you seem to be your own man, something my dad is very adiment about. This is confidence, in your self, and in your social standing (but at the same time not caring what your \"status\" is, you know who you are, and that you are to be valued for you). But then this is only half the battle, you have to live by your values, and not sell out on them. If you talk to a woman and she disagrees with something you said, a very typical reaction is to back track and renounce your statment. Now is that confidence? Is that being your own man? In fact if this is you, then you are no man. Confidence is not something you are born with, you \"earn it\", just like respect. They are pretty much paralell, in that you want (and realistically need, if you want any success) the respect of women. Its also a sefl perpetuating cycle, you act with more confidence, you get more respect, you get more confident. Also, the more people who see you being respected and valued, the more you will people (male and female) will want to be around you.

Another thing;
What do you think women mean when they say they want a good personality in a man, but most of all, a sense of humour. Guys think about this before you read, and ladies correct me if I\'m wrong.
Yes, obviously that means they want to laugh, have fun, be excited, distracted from the general miseries of life, and they want this fom their man. I\'m hoping most of you knew that. But then, how do you do this? Being able to tell the odd joke does not equate to having a desirable personality, just as being the typical nice guy doesnt. Being able to brighten up the room with your presence, and make the whole atmosphere boyant, thats what you have to do. The worst thing that you can be is boring. Well duh! i hear you say. But let me tell you, the most common reason for men being dumped is because the woman has become bored. Do you think this can be solved will a joke? Er...no. The main problem is most people have no idea how to be interesting, which leads to desirability, which leads to value. The key is....
...(wait for it)...

...VARIETY

Simple as that. Never get stuck into a routine, even if at first it got the attention of your woman (this applies almsot universally), because I can guarentee it will become boring. If you stay interesting, then she (or they [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] ) will stay interested. Getting stuck into a routine is too reminisant of the guy who tries to hard to please his woman, and gets the woman thinking that she can do better. She will sense that you are doing this souly to please her, and not to have fun and enjoy yourself. Again, being your own man is important. If you are not having fun, say so and/or do something else. If you dissagree or are not happy with something, say so, don\'t just get walked on. But then dont be a jerk, after all you do actually want her to be happy, but just not at your expense.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

YAY!! Standing cheering crowds, brass bands, balloons, confetti for CptKipling!

[proteus]

CptKipling: Lots of interesting things you said but the general impression I get is that from your perspective a guy has to be this Mr.Superman/James Bond/Woody Allen kinda guy - that\'s too much work - also there are lots of guys who by any measure are confident, charming, funny, have a personality etc. but are genuinely \"nice\" to people, believe that you don\'t always have to get your own way, that you can turn the other cheek when someone disses you or she disrespects you without feeling the need to argue back etcetc, understanding her feelings, having concern for her even when she\'s maybe being a b**tch because you care for her etc.. But this comes off as wussy, he\'s too nice, he\'s boring etcetc. - I\'m in my early thirties and dated enough, seen enough, had enough gfs to know that at least somewhere like here in NY, if you are \"nice\" in this way, you are going to have a very hard time getting a gf.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

a.k.a.,

thanks for a thoughtful response. I think you and I are talking about slightly different things, which has maybe become more clear as this thread has evolved.

What I mean is it\'s better as much as possible not to be contrived and self-conscious in your intimate interactions.

Not that it\'s wrong to set goals for yourself that involve changing behaviors you don\'t like -- As long as you change to please your own idea of what you should be, or should become -- and not out of need to be liked.

I\'m not an existentialist so perhaps we\'ll never agree about whether there is a real \"self\" waiting to be uncovered.

But I do know there are people who put up fronts or who lie almost as reflex about how they feel or what they think because they believe they\'re essentially unlovable and they have to work hard to gain approval - or that love (sexual or nonsexual) is conditional on agreeing with each other\'s every point of view. They make themselves a walking lie and no one respects them.

I would rather be with someone who I disagree with on most every topic as long as I know when I ask him something, he\'ll tell me the truth as he sees it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Proteus, two questions, then. 1. What is your method?
2. Is it working for you?

[proteus]

FTR wrote: >>>Proteus, two questions, then. 1. What is your method?
2. Is it working for you?<<<<<<<<<

Well FTR to answer your first question, my method is a compilation of so many things that it\'s hard to put into words. I could say, being \"alpha\" but that wouldn\'t be sufficient and even the term \"alpha\" has many different intepretations but it\'s along these lines with some variations/things I\'ve picked up along the way, a lot of which I\'d prefer not to say.

To answer your second question, does it work? It depends what you mean - I\'ll answer this way. If I want to get laid I can easily find an attractive woman and seduce her without too much work. But from the perspective of finding someone who I can envision something long-term with it gets complicated. Lets just say I\'m still looking for the \"one\" and very open to this, but it\'s hard to find a woman that you feel you can let your guard down with completely - being alpha also means being very cautious/wary of what she says/does and calling her on her bs when she tests you so you can never truly relax in the relationship because then the boredom sets in for her, or on the flip side you reach a point where the sex becomes dull or you get tired/bored with her (as happened with my last gf) and you decide you want out and date again in hopes of finding that someone who you do feel a real connection with. So perhaps when you talk about \"be yourself\" there is some truth to the fact that ultimately we are all trying to find that one person who we can let our guards down with and be ourselves and still be accepted. But maybe this is just a myth too as in the real world I have yet to experience this but remain hopeful :-)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It does exist.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It does exist, but it ain\'t easy finding it. I think it\'s just as hard to find a woman who keeps me interested as vise-versa. Almost anyone can go out and find a lay for the night, but Muffy the cocktail waitress with no real personality can end up being about as much fun as a bag of nails in the long term. Is this heading towards the \"What is love?\" thread, or is it just me.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Gawd, I hope not. I can do without \"what is love.\"

[CptKipling]

The things I said arn\'t hard to do. It comes pretty much naturally if thats how you choose to lead your life.

But it is more focussed on the LTR type, not just for going out and getting laid.

I also think it exists, its just a matter of sifting through the masses, but thats even more of a reason to be the guy women want to stay with.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\"Swingers\" is not a good movie for a guy to model himself after, nor these fastseduction, etc. sites.

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You, for saying something about the fastsuduction site and sites like them. I\'ve been wanting to say something about that site for awhile now. So many people have talked about this site on this forum, I figured I\'d get flamed if I said anything negative about it. It seems to me, if you need guidlines set down by a website to get a woman, you are in for real problems. Some of the crap that they suggest you do on these sites are going to get you in a lot of hot water with a woman. They must think women are complete idiots.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh, there\'s no question - there are men on the forum who are convinced beyond the shadow of any doubt that women are idiots.