Phero Conversions (JVK contribution is welcome!)

[DrSmellThis]

I suspect there is progress to be made if we can learn to get a grip on, and control the different phero conversions -- most prominently -nol to -none -- that may be happening on our body. Concepts such as \"parent, child, sister, and cousin pheromones\" might become needed. Of course, JVKohl cited -nol conversion as a reason for omitting -none entirely from his SOE formula. Is there a middle path?

The most basic idea, which is not new, is to start off with more -nol, knowing that over time you\'ll have less -nol and more -none; and shooting for some average desirable level -- or even a time effect. By time effect I mean that socializing happens before seduction as -nol happens before converted -none. This also suggests a strategy of varying application points according to how much/what kind of bacteria, fatty acids, salts, and enzymes we want to expose the pheros to -- perhaps shooting for some heavy microorganism exposure as well as protected application points, such as clothes or the surface of the hair. Perhaps we could prevent OD by experimenting with such combinations, and even create a broader spectrum of pheromones through modulating the natural conversion processes.

All of this suggests some possible reasons why mixes such as \"DD lite\" have grown in popularity of late.

Some salient issues for discussion:

* Are pheros activated by bacteria, or bio-psychologically effective as is?

*None that converts from -nol smells more urinous to me than either the NPA or Stone -none. Does anyone else have this experience? How \'bout compared to PI?

*I suspect there are other conversions happening, but I could be wrong. Does -nol convert to other things? Does -none? For instance, I sometimes get a smelly feet/homeless person scent after a while, and I have speculated that might be a conversion from -none. When I go phero heavy in my pits, I smell new things -- not all of it pleasant. My pits never stank before, and I\'ve never needed to wear deodorant.

* DHEA starts off as predominantly -rone in the body, as JVK noted; but also is convered to all the andro-mones, via testosterone, if I have it correct. This suggests the question of whether -rone converts on the skin to other things.

*What have people noticed different about \"next day without having showered\" -mones? I might be different here, because I tend to like the mone smell the next day without showering if I am otherwise clean and wore essential oils the previous day to inhibit bacterial growth. I typically then add less on top of it when I reapply the next day. I then fancy I might have a broader spectrum of active -mones on my skin.
* This is just speculation, but I have wondered whether NPA has some standard pherochemical \"close cousins\" in it, that might result anyway from skin conversion of -nol, -none, or A1. Of course I understand if no one wants to speak about this one.

*Might the over-use of anti-bacterial soaps and deodorants reduce the potential number of active pheromones on our bodies?

*Might supplementation with certain probiotics (lactobacilli, etc) and fatty acids (e.g. butyric acid, evening primrose, flax?) assist in such conversion processes, if desirable?

* If -nol is the only one that converts, should we apply more nol throughout the day?

* Why is there so little publically available information on the various \"parent\" pheromones their offspring resulting from conversion, and their concentrations?

I know this is a heavy thread on which knowledge is limited, but I did want to call for discussion anyway. Mr. Kohl\'s contributions would be especially appreciated here, to keep us out of blind alleys. I\'d also like to hear from anyone else. Speculation is fine, as we can always experiment later.

[Thanks, Maxi, for the editorial help below! I made the change.]

[MaxiMog]

I haven\'t read all of it yet, but it should be \"-nol to -none\" in the beginning. I don\'t want to sound like a know-it-all, but I think some people have yet to hear about conversions, and that\'s why the information should be correct.

Once again, dont be offended or so by this. Glad to have a topic on this!

[Watcher]

Nol does in fact break down into many things. Rone however is one of the granddaddys so to speak as it breaks down into nol and none.
There are thousands of compounds in huamn sweat therefore other phero types must exists. James kohl can help but with NPA utilising two different types and of course erox with realm having 20-30 patents and dr dodd having used 30 types in datemate who knows but i guess 50 relating directly to pheromones would be a good place to start.


http://www.anitadoth.myby.co.uk/anita%20doth_2%20u%20downloads.htm

[jvkohl]

Wish I could contribute more to this, but my steroid hormone biochemistry background leaves much to be desired. Watcher has a good handle on things. Still a lot of factors to consider, overall. The metabolism of added pheromones by skin bacteria shouldn\'t present any immediate problem if one starts off clean. With or without the additional pheromones, it still takes a while for bacteria to break things down into nasty smelling compounds. -nol metabolizes to -none, but I haven\'t seen info that -rone metabolized to -none, which makes -rone safe--for now. And -rone comes from a somewhat different testosterone affected chemical conversion also (though I don\'t know much about C-17 steroids versus C-19 steroids. My approach was to see how people responded to -rone, by itself. Combining with -nol was mostly due to Bruce\'s input, though leaving out the -none was my dictate. Then, in all honesty, it\'s up to the perfumer, who did a great job giving Bruce and I samples of likely good combinations. Wish I could claim credit for more exact science, but that\'s not the case. Sometimes, after all is said and done, you just have to get lucky.

[DrSmellThis]

So here we are! Still, I bet these practical questions have interesting and substantive answers. Someone might be lurking that can shed some light...

Thanks JVK and watcher.

[DrSmellThis]

bump.

[CptKipling]

Have not really got much to offer, apart from to say that when SOE goes rancid, it goes REALLY rancid. Worse that NPA. AE does the same thing actually.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah, I can\'t wear SOE, because it just goes rancid on me. It might be the -rone, or -rone conversion to something.

[DrSmellThis]

yes...interesting.

unknown conversions?

[Bruce]

I\'ve always been under the impression that it was the RONE that converted to NONE, not NOL. I first noticed it with a sample of pure RONE. I wouldn\'t call it \"rancid\", but I have noticed what I call a \"ripening\" of both SOE and AE as the fragrance fades. Back before there was an SOE and I often used AE, it didn\'t occur to me that there was a chemical conversion going on at all. I just thought the AE fragrance was fading letting the NONE smell ermerge. Then after my experience of the relatively odorless RONE getting very musky when exposed to the elements (heat? bacteria? air?); becoming similar in smell to NONE, I knew something was up. As I remember, even before experimenting with the first samples of SOE, I was expecting this RONE-NONE conversion to occur, and it does seem to transform after application.

I guess the next big question is: have users of PI/women noticed this NONE-type muskiness developing after application? OR any home made chem-set preperations containing NOL only???

Bruce

[DrSmellThis]

Very thoughtful, Mr. phero guru. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

So I agree, Bruce, that the next logical step is to experiment with single chem set -mones and notice time effects.

So my next purchase is a large bottle of -nol, in case you\'re waiting for that perfect time to run a special on it...[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Perhaps an advantage of using mones that are further down the conversion chain (near the bottom of the phero family tree), is that you have more control over which mones you\'ll end up with. For instance, perhaps none and the two anonymous mones in NPA are more robust to skin bacteria, and can convert to relatively fewer things.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It happens to me with PI/w -- also Sophie mentioned that it becomes \"musky\" after awhile -- it happens to me with SOE, definitely, every time I put it on. Which is why I\'ve been asking for an unscented SOE. I thought the fragrance was turning on me.

[a.k.a.]

I wear SOE to work a lot. Now I’m convinced that the conversion is somehow effected by my moods. I don’t get the rancid smell unless I’m stressed or frustrated. I usually get a nice sort of (almost sweet) muskiness.

I don’t think it has to do with how much I perspire because the AC in my office had gone out for a couple of days and all I observed was a natural perspiration smell.

So I’m thinking it might have to do with how many “stress and anger pheromones” (if there is such a thing) I produce during the day.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s possible it reacts differently on women. But if your theory is correct and it turns because of bad vibes, I should just throw mine out...lol

[DrSmellThis]

Cool... we\'re getting somewhere.

OK, you PI and RM users, what have you noticed with pure -none? Does the smell change with time, or not? If so, how?

Bruce, it\'s interesting to look at the first chem set threads, in which early users were puzzled, thinking the rone must be \"double strength,\" as it got stronger and lingered relatively more with time. Perhaps this was just a conversion effect. And JVK, when you were experimenting with -rone, did you notice the smell evolving?

So perhaps from now on we should view phero mixing and application as setting in motion a dynamic process, rather than a static, \"I have x amounts of a, b, c\" view.

The probiotics angle is interesting for it\'s potential to steer conversion of all the mones in a \"pleasant\" direction.

Why? Because probiotic supplements are healthy bacteria. Strains such as lactobacillus acidophilus, bifidus bifida, b. breve are present in the birth canal and in mother\'s milk, so they end up being prevalent on a baby\'s skin as well. And guess what smell women can\'t resist? Perhaps it\'s not the baby powder per se, but is rather the pheromones they associate by olfactory memory to the powder.

The sugar FOS also has potential, as it is most appealing as food to healthier strains, and might be simpler to apply topically. In any case, either could be dissolved in water (just empty the capsules) and used in an atomizer. The FOS would survive an alcohol base, on the other hand, and could be added to edge, etc.

And I hate to say it, but all this might revive the Athena idea of DHEA, but I won\'t go down that controversial path more here.

And it also might suggest the wisdom of applying essential oils first(e.g., patchoili), to prepare the skin, since they tend to inhibit nasty epidermal microorganism proliferation. (Why can\'t this DrSmell use normal words? [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img])

[a.k.a.]

The None smell diminishes over time.

[jvkohl]

I experimented with -rone only 1mg/ml; have had several different containers for more than a year and have had no conversion (that I\'m aware of). Trouble is, I can\'t smell -rone, and can only smell -none when it is many times above the threshold of most others. So, on the one hand, I\'m not the best judge--on the other, I don\'t think that -rone is likely to convert to -none, but know that -nol does.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So what does that conversion mean? You put one thing on and in a couple of hours, you\'re really wearing something else. What behaviors should change when your \'mones morph?

Seems to me I\'ve heard that to reapply is the way to counteract the effect, so it\'s fresh again and has not had time to convert....So over an 8 hour period, I wonder how many times you would have to freshen it.

[CptKipling]

With RM I dont notice any change, but then the cover scent seems slightly over the top so if there was a change I doubt if I would notice anyway.

Going back to the advice I gave FTR RE: SOE going rancid, the conversion is diminished and almost none existant when applied to \"softer\" skin, i.e not hairy (and so less sweaty), such as inner forearms.

[DrSmellThis]

In general I\'ve noticed conversion effects are less pleasant in the pits, and more pleasantly musky, if you will when applied at -- ahem -- various places below the waist. I vary amounts applied accordingly.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

On the inner forearms is where I have been putting it. I\'ll try lower down.

[CptKipling]

Doc Smell:

I haven\'t applied SOE to pits, but I sometimes spray TE there. After a while OD reactions become more apparent and I got BO, but that was after playing football. SOE smells very cat pissy on the more exposed areas of my arms in about 1 hour, sometimes less. Will have to experiment applying lower down aswell, have done that with JB-X with good results.

[bpg1]

I\'ve always put SoE behind my ears and on the side (away from hair) of my neck. In my experience, the smell pretty much fades completely after a few hours, or at least is hardly noticable...How long is nol --> none oxidation supposed to take in people\'s experience...How long does it take people to notice a -none style cat pissy smell when wearing SoE?

[CptKipling]

I think the rancid smell of SOE isnt just -none. It has to be something else aswell.

Like I said it takes about an hour in some place, but it doesnt seem to happen at all in others. Actually, tell a lie, I applied once in the morning, then when I woke up the next day with my arm next to my head I was like \"Aww wtf is that smell?!?! Oh its me!\"

[Irish]

When I looked into this I found the various conversion processes described to be complex and full of individual variables. In short, I quit worrying about it cause I found it too intricate to control/predict. So I just try to keep a clean body to which I add the pheros of interest to me. But here\'s a few things I might add to the discussion:

1. It is reported that the human axillary secretions (most of our phero products use these chemicals) undergo complex conversion reactions when they appear on the skin. This is mostly due to skin bacteria. In general, men and women have different types of bacteria colonies on the skin. Beyond that there are also individual differences in the types of bacteria a person may happen to have. The different types of bacteria metabolize the pheros differently, and the differing byproducts have a lot to do with your individual scent being different from someone else\'s. The conversions of pheros can even be two-way, back and forth from original phero to a metabolite and back again to the original compound. The general trend however is from less odorous to more odorous. At the end of this post is one study you can refer to on this - there are many others. Bottom line for me, there\'s too much going on here, with too many individual variables, for me to confidently predict what an applied phero on my skin might turn into (how will I know what bacteria live there? etc).

2) aka\'s point makes sense about stress changing the scent. Your apocrine glands are ennervated by the sympathetic nervous system - which controls certain \'automatic\' functions in times of stress, danger, etc. So it would be no surprise that in times of stress your apocrine glands were dumping your own natural pheros at an increased rate. Your own increased phero secretions could definitely change the reaction/conversions from what you notice in more calm periods.

3) I\'ve noticed nol-heavy pheros on me really change overnight into something more pungent. I\'ve been told I needed a bath by a woman the next day, and I had to agree with her. Something definitely happens on my skin - I just don\'t think I\'ll ever know enough to manipulate that conversion to my advantage. So I just note it in a general sense (nol overnight smells BAD on me) and try to work with that basic idea. Others may have better luck figuring this out or controlling it. I think generalizations won\'t work because of the many individual variables and the complexity of the conversions. But one could definitely experiment and at least look for unpleasant \'no-no\'s.

---------------reference--------------
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1994 Mar;48(4):409-18
Comparison of 16-androstene steroid concentrations in sterile apocrine sweat and axillary secretions: interconversions of 16-androstenes by the axillary microflora--a mechanism for axillary odour production in man?

[MadMaxx]

I don\'t have a problem with SOE; smells the same hours later. I like what a.k.a. said though, I know that when I have stress and/or anger my sweat smells worse. I don\'t know whether it actually makes the pheros I am wearing smell worse though. These days, I don\'t have the stress/hositlity problem since I use EW daily which keeps me in dreamland. Thus, that may explain why SOE stays the same for me all day. Also, contrary to what some are saying, location does not seem to matter for me; soft skin or on top of hairy foreams; no difference. I am not much of a sweater though.

[Whitehall]

I have noticed a definite difference in scent changes with SoE depending on site of application. When I apply to my neck or chest, no negative change. Apply to the back of my hands and it quickly changes into something pungent and disagreeable.

Haven\'t tried SoE to the armpits or genitals although NPA to the pubic hair is a nice technique.

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks irish. Great reference. Great post!!

Any further references, especially clickable, would be appreciated.

I don\'t think it\'s at all unreasonable to think we can funnel this process in a certain direction, as I\'ve suggested above. General information just requires general strategies.

I think it\'s unreasonable to think of stopping bacteria on your skin, and probably counterproductive as well. On the contrary I would suppose that fostering the healthiest possible epidermal colony, which would itself control unhealthy microbial outbreaks, as well as manage the conversions, is preferred. The simplest thing to try first is dissolving FOS in the mones. Things like managing your body\'s acidity, detoxification and diet (e.g., minimizing simple sugars) are also suggested. A little meditation before applying mones, perhaps?

This also suggests the wisdom of using those mones that make me feel good, as my pleasant emotional state will encourage the mones on my skin to evolve in a pleasant direction. It also suggests that certain mones are better for certain individuals, regardless of general considerations (age, height, etc.).

How \'Bout Dem Irish?

[DrSmellThis]

Incidentally, Irish, did your study suggest that all the -mones convert on the skin, or just -nol? Some more/less than others? Sounds like multiple -mones convert.

[DrSmellThis]

bump to compensate for unpopularity of \'more academic\' threads.