Anyone know what NPA SEcret ingredients R?

[DrSmellThis]

Yes. Anyhing we can to to help Phil Stone would be good for everyone.

[Watcher]

He actually does a great job at what he does though all that research and product testing has helped us immensley get better pheromones.

http://www.theentertainmentcompany.nl/divas/index-en.html

[Walter]

Yes Phil is a great guy. On par with Bruce even lol.
He makes great products and he used to even make custom products for me.
I just wish Erox would let him experiment and use some more of the pheromones so we would have a more rounded product.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, if we find that Erox\'s pheromones patented to affect the wearer can also attract the opposite, can\'t somebody patent it again for that purpose?!

[Naughtymonkey]

The main Erox patent is subject to opposition in the European Patent office. The Oral Hearing is scheduled for next march. The Opponent? The guy who makes PF.(or not now!)

NM

[**DONOTDELETE**]

!! Who\'s prosecuting the Erox patent? have you looked at their patents? They\'re really well written.

Hope you\'ll keep us posted.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Probably not much in the way of repeat business on erox products as it is, since many people don\'t care much for them and are gender reversed. Some pressure could be put on erox by boycotting them. If they aren\'t making any money in the retail pheromone business they might choose to abandon it, or to release more of the pheromones they are holding onto, or possibly licensing them to other companies who would put them to better use. I mean why support a company that you don\'t agree with when you don\'t have to, if you do you just keep reinforcing them to keep doing the same thing.

[Naughtymonkey]

Not me!! I know Erox\'s European attorney quite well. Haven\'t inspected the EP file, so have no idea how strong the opposition is. The patent has lapsed in various European Countries, but not in any of the big 4 (GB,DE,IT, FR).
NM
(on yes, if you haven\'t guessed, I\'m a patent attorney)

[Walter]

I forgot that Dr Dodd, PF\'s maker, claims that it has 20 some odd pheromones in it.
If that is true there may be some overlap in the pheros in the patents and the ones he has been using.
Or maybe he just wants to use them.
Who knows.
EDIT
I dug up an old post and it says \"20 distint pheromones\" and that Dr. Dodd is in court with Erox over the A-1 patent.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

NaughtyMonkey, they filed US first and then went PCT, right? So even if some of the Euro patents have expired, if the US parent is still in effect, would anyone originally filing in an EPO country still have to defer to the US parent and do a write-around? or does the priority issue cease to exist once the foreign-filed patent expires? Some of the Erox patents have complicated lineages - continuations of continuations - so if the first-filed of these continuations should be invalidated (or any of the continuations or divisionals, for that matter), would that also render invalid all its descendants? Because I so admire the patents themselves, could you PM me what US law firm wrote the Erox patents? I could order a file wrapper but hate to spend the money if I can get the info for free. If, god forbid, I should find myself looking for a job, I\'d like to know where such nice work is being produced.Thanks! So cool you\'re in IP.

[Naughtymonkey]

FTR

The US patent numbers are 5,278,141 and 5,272,134, firm is an outfit called Morrison & Foerster . The EP number is 562843, opposed by Kiotech. Dr. Dodd has apparently pulled out of the human pheromone market and his company kiotech is in the business of ...................fish bait, yes apparently he noticed that ovulating women catch more fish when fishing (and I am not kidding you!) - he has a number of patent filings himself. So its possible he is just trying to restrict the scope of Erox\'s patent to enable him to market his fish bait. http://www.cefas.co.uk/news/news250501.htm.

When I\'m back in the office I\'ll try and see what more I can find out. FTR, be careful around fish tanks!
NM

[Naughtymonkey]

Kiotech\'s PCT application abstract:

The invention provides compositions formulated to attract fish, comprising at least one human female pheromone such as trimethylamine, pyrroline and salts thereof, steroids of the androstene family such as 5-alpha-androst-16-en-3- alpha -ol, heterocyclic compounds such as indole and skatole and alkanoic acid compounds such as 4-methyloctanoic acid. Compositions can be formulated as liquids for direct application to bait, hooks or flies. Plastic bait can be manufactured including the composition. The composition can be used to attract fish by fishermen and anglers or to guide fish into paths to enable them to cross dams.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

MAN! See, they all said I was crazy but I *knew* that goldfish was flirting with me!

OMG, so ... if Dr.Dodd has thrown in the towel on human pheromones and has been reduced to fish bait, I guess we can assume that Erox rules supreme in the market and will continue to for the foreseeable future, since he\'s having to sue for even this far-flung a use.

Morrison & Foerster\'s DC office is within walking distance of where I work now. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I\'ll save this for my resume/interview file. Thanks!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Irish, it just occurred to me that they DO market their colognes as sexual attractants. They used to have an infomercial for Realm with this sultry voiced long-haired/legged blonde knockout in a red dress explaining about the discovery of the vmo, etc., and the power of Realm colognes.

Do you think it would do any good/not do any harm to bombard them with product requests?

[Naughtymonkey]

What I would like to know is how he found this out - \"excuse me Madam, I couldn\'t help but notice you have caught a rather nice salmon. Are you ovulating?\" Monty Python couldn\'t come up with better...............

I am not aware Erox are actually suing kiotech. Kiotech are simply opposing the grant of the patent to restrict its scope. As far as Erox\'s US patents are concerned, the problem with US patents are that when granted they have a presumption of validity and can only be revoked in court on the basis of \"clear and compelling\" evidence (being the standard of proof needed). Unfortunately, the US system has no effective means more knocking out granted patents - a permanent bane of my working life. I have had a conversation with Bruce about things but for obvious reasons won\'t repeat that here.

NM

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Further evidence that p*ssy rules the world...fish will cross dams for it! Wonder if it\'s only male fish. And yeah, I\'d give anything to know how he find that out!

The quickest, cheapest way I know to litigate a patent matter across country lines is through the ITC, no? Because the time limit is restricted. Although even the ITC litigation I\'ve been involved with has been billed at 5 million for one case and that wasn\'t considered excessive (my eyes popped when I edited the bill). But otherwise you\'ll just bleed out of money in civil court.

[Naughtymonkey]

What will be worth doing is checking that the maintenance fees have been paid to keep their US patents in force. Also its possible that prior art has come up in the European Proceedings that knocks out the US patent, if you went to court. As you say, in the US, its money that talks - Without giving anything away, we have just spent $15million on some patent litigation (and lost), not the sort of money I should think Bruce has lying around the place!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'ll check, but there\'s no way they\'ve missed a maintenance fee by acccident -- that\'s malpractice actionable on the face of it and a firm like M&F wouldn\'t make that kind of mistake - and the way Erox has those patents all convoluted into each other with continuations of continuations of continuations, I read as little more than a strategy to extend term life. And their prior art disclosed is extensive. The patent work is really beautiful, I think.

I\'ll look when I go to work on Monday.

Yeah. Mum should be the word about the stuff we\'re using. I was wrong to shoot off my mouth before doing any research. Thanks, Irish.

Thanks NM for all the info.

[Watcher]

There are other players in the pheromone market.

Being PI makers, the makers of attraction and andro 4.2 and phil stone and james kohl and many others. The research is going strong and im sure this forum is having a major impact on a lot of parties therefore accidental skirmishes are sure to happen, if we keep pushing those compounds we can get our hands on legally (androsteRONE is not patented as phil stone was using it - james kohl was going to but those two work together quite closley and there is room in the market for both) also both suppliers and contributors via bruce or directly straight into the pheromone forum. Ie SOE vs AE.

Erox is useless with no real pheromone products and im sure i could have a major OD with 20 or 30 pheromone compounds that would be great. But without legal clearence i doubt getting ones hands on the information first and then the compounds second is going to be hard therefore we push Rone nol and none a1 and couplins and have fun with those for NOW ???

http://www.theentertainmentcompany.nl/divas/index-en.html

[Teak]

Just to add something...back in April, I asked LaCroy if they had any plans to release new products with other pheros, other than -none, suggesting the likes of using -nol, -rone, a1, etc. The reply I got basically said they already use 3 different pheros in their products, 2 of which target the VNO senses, which are supposedly unique to most other competing brands. They didn\'t state what 3 different pheros they use, of course.

[Watcher]

Most other competing brands - ok so what do the other competing brands use that target the VNO and actually disclose. If you look at the competing brands you may find some answers.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, if competing brands are anything but Erox, and Erox has two pheros that target the VNO...

[Watcher]

Then what do the competing brands have in it that contain pheros that target the VNO - think realm etc here.

[xvs]

This article has been posted before, I believe, but it\'s still interesting reading:

http://www.naturalattraction.com/NEW/s/6.html

Note that androstenone does NOT have a particular affinity for the VNO, yet many people here find it to be quite effective.

So VNO affinity may not be the be-all and end-all that some have said it is.

[Irish]

I dunno. I just look at all this from a consumer viewpoint, and my interest is only in continuing to get as many pheros as possible. It may sound silly, but pheros are really a big part of my life now, and I\'d hate to lose out on my supply.

As I see the marketplace, we have a very few suppliers. The one supplier holding all the legal cards (EROX) is unfortunately not providing the products we want. Nor do I think they will in the future. We are saved by the other suppliers filling in the niche. We have apparently lost one of those suppliers (Kiotech) after they tangled with EROX. I don\'t know the legal details of that, nor do I care, since I can\'t do anything about it. All I know is we have one less product (PF), which is a pity because Dodd was a pioneer and has some scientific credibility. Whatever we were getting in PF is lost to us now…hope everyone stocked up (I have my two little bottles!).

This is a weird little niche market, so the normal consumer/provider rules don\'t necessarily apply. Erox has shown the ability to knock one of our suppliers out of the market place. But Erox also doesn\'t seem all that interested in our business - which is good in this case since I don\'t think they will ever provide the products I want anyway. I think it\'s a case of letting the giant alone to tend what interests him (pharmaceuticals) .. cause when he gets bugged he seems to turn around and smash someone I care about.

All the legal details about the patents and what could done is irrelevant unless someone is really going into the business and trying to expand the marketplace. If not, its all just talk, and talk that might be counterproductive in my paranoid opinion. All I know is PF had to close down, and I don\'t want to lose any more options.

[Whitehall]

That bunch of lawyers - \"Morrison & Foerster\" - is known in the trade as MoFo. They\'re one of the biggest intellectual property law firms in the world.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sorry, Irish. It\'s so rare I get to talk shop, I got carried away.

[Tom]

I read that:
J. Le Magnen, French scientist, found that exaltolide on man body can attract women sexually.
and also perfume producer using musky oil

And on May and October the serotonin hormone is very high on brain, this hormone reduce/block the sexual reactions.

[Naughtymonkey]

Irish

What a curious post. I never knew pheros could actually mean that much to someone! I was just kicking around some of the bigger issues with FTR. Can\'t see how it could be counterproductive. Believe me I know what to post when it comes to IPR and what not to! I think Kiotech simply decided to change businness direction rather than any fight with Erox, unless anyone else knows any different?

[Irish]

I\'m probably too paranoid. Not commenting on anyone\'s post - just the general topic of this thread.

The original subject of this thread surfaces periodically - a demand for the manufacturers to reveal their \'secret\' phero ingredients. I can think of a couple of reasons why they might want to keep their ingredients secret, can\'t you? PF never listed theirs either to my knowledge. My point being, why should we alarm Erox by drawing attention to producers using secret ingredients? Erox seems able to use legal muscle to protect their patents, and the result seems to be fewer products for us to use. I\'m no legal eagle, but I know when something disappears from the market.

Yes, life would go on if Erox reduced the market to nol and none. We could always get those from the pig-breeder suppliers (BoarMate anyone?). We could spice that up with Realm. I just want to keep other options open if possible. And I don\'t want to do Erox\'s dirty work for them.