Anyone know what NPA SEcret ingredients R?

[Walter]

Mtnjim
I wasn\'t trying to insult you or anything. I totally forgot about that thread.
We aparantly posted at the same time and I just want you to know I didn\'t mean to piss you off or anything.
Also we should get back to topic you are right.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s ok. It was interesting to read. ccbythesea kicked his ass, so did a lot of you others, that was heartening. Watcher sure showed his style, too. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] But MAN, the coldheartedness of that guy. If I were in his wife\'s place and found out ANY of it, Lorena Bobbit would look like Miss Mary Sunshine...a.k.a.\'s post to him I thought was very impressive also.

[Mtnjim]

\"Mtnjim
I wasn\'t trying to insult you or anything. I totally forgot about that thread.\"

No problem~~wasn\'t insulted. AND I forgot about the thread YOU posted, oh well like I said (I think) old and senile...

[Watcher]

That guy trying to get hold of his sister in law with pheromones certainly set off some people around here.

Now back to the topic NPAs secret ingredients. Are they the same in NPA for women i have heard the difference is that instead of -none in the womens version it has -nol. (Pure rumour of course) But whatever they are they have the same effect so it must be a cross gender affecting compound. (drawing conclusions again here)

But just using some deductive logic to try and get peoples minds in the right direction.

[Tom]

Bruce: .... and I have a feeling there are going to be plenty more new pheromone ingredients surfacing in coming years

I hope we can contribute for better phero product in the future using this polling

http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB5&Number=28735& amp;page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&amp ;fpart=

[Irish]

There\'s an issue about commercial phero products we need to keep in mind. That is, EROX has most of the exciting pheros patented for use in scented products. Look up their patent - many, many pheros and potential pheros are listed - the ones we would love to get our hands on if we could.

Other manufacturers then have to be sensitive not only to outright infringement, but also to the APPEARANCE of infringement. Why? Cuase you can be completely innocent and still get sued out of existence. It\'s called running out of money for lawyers before you prove you are in the right. Happens all the time - facing off against team of opposing corporate lawyers is often the last episode of a company\'s existence.

So if our providers of phero products want to keep some things under their hat, give \'em a break. Maybe they\'re just being careful and avoiding even the \'appearance of evil\'. If we hound them too much for info they may get spooked out of the marketplace altogether. Don\'t look a gift horse in the mouth...

The sad thing is that EROX is unresponsive to the marketplace. They insist on locking their patented pheros into products for the \'wrong\' gender, from our standpoint (e.g., putting female pheros in the mens cologne and vice-versa). They apparently don\'t want to market cologne products viewed as sexual attractants (which is exactly what most of us want!). But they hold the patent and have a lock on the market from a strong legal position.

[Whitehall]

Irish,

I\'ve made this point several times in the past, albeit without your elegance of language.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Irish, sounds like you know your way around patent law a little...in which case you know that you can obtain a valid patent just by tweaking someone else\'s claims. It\'s true that you can also be sued out of existence for alleged infringement. But Erox has so polluted everything they make with scent that their products are unusable at least for me. It would seem to me that just the removal of the scent and isolation of one or more of the pheromones (a la chem set approach) would be enough as a start. Did you know that SOE is not patented? Stood my hair on end to realize that.

Rambling but I\'m trying to say that Erox\'s hold on certain \'mones is by no means unbreakable - a first year at our firm could probably bust out a completely defensible patent. Erox being so unresponsive, I wish someone would get their hands on the wheel and do the paperwork.

[Irish]

FTRH - I\'m sure you\'re right that a motivated group could challenge and maybe prevail against Pherin/Erox. I\'m just not sure our current phero providers are motivated/able to do so. And if they aren\'t, I don\'t want to add to their concerns in this marginal marketplace by doing what regularly gets called for in this forum: that is, demanding that LaCroy or whoever reveal secret ingredients. I don\'t want these good manufacters hounded and spooked by us, especially if we are getting some things from them we will never get from EROX, and not get at all if they leave the marketplace.

I also wish EROX would get real products out there, or someone else would replace them who was able to legitimately serve us. I just don\'t see that happening as a practical matter. And I want to stay on good terms with the few outfits now operating that supply us.

EROX is an arm of a larger conglomerate researching pheros for medical use. They say with pride how strong their patent position is, and I tend to believe them. The cologne market is apparently a sideline for them, and one they really don\'t seem to understand or else want to downplay. I\'m willing to bet none of our phero providers want to fight with them. And if our providers want to keep a few \'secrets\', well that\'s probably to the customer\'s advantage, if we would just think about it...

Anyway, no big deal - I just get annoyed at the self-righteos demands on this forum that all secrets must be revealed. These providers are probably doing us a favor, and trying to stay in business. We may shoot ourselves in the foot if we aren\'t careful....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Got it. Here\'s to keeping it on the DDL.

[upsidedown]

If Erox was smart, they\'d license out their patent to allow other phero users to use their patented products, and just get a small cut off of everything the other company\'s sell. This seems to be done all the time in other industries. But, they may not be motivated to do this.

Or, FTR, maybe you could put on a full compliment of phero products and then use your best charm and maybe talk your law firm into challenging the Erox patent pro bono for the benefit of all society. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I did email the heads of the biopharm and chemical divisions, and received read receipts, but had no replies. Which is not surprising, considering the status leap - those people don\'t even speak to me in the hall (give them vertigo to look down that far lol). But I have do have a more stealth plan - it\'s just that the attorney I think would listen and help is CRUSHED by work right now and it would be cruel to ask him for anything at the moment.

You in IP law?

[upsidedown]

\"You in IP law? \" FTR

Were you directing that question to me? If so, then answer is no, I just play an IP lawyer on television. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Seriously, I was only joking about you approaching your firm. I didn\'t realize you were actually being a bit farsighted by doing something. I\'m impressed.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Dude. I don\'t play. I quit school \'cause of recess.

[Whitehall]

The big money is is patentable prescription drugs and that is what Erox, their venture capitalists, and pharmaceutical partners are going after. Cosmetics are an open market without government barriers to competitors - patents and FDA approvals.

Realm just got them in the game and gave them a reputation for bringing a product to market - important credibility issues for a young company. However, I would think that maintaining their patent position would be important to them if only to show that they are scrappy enough to play with the big boys, not directly for the money off the products.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The whole concept of IP law is foresight - to protect against any and all infringement that might happen in the future, so Erox did good, and they\'re woofin\' real loud, but ... if it came right down to it, I\'m not sure how much publicity they want to draw to themselves, either, for the exact same reasons that we\'re speaking of re the DDL. See what I mean? So it would almost be good strategy to get some method claims out with the existing ingredients and let Erox send a cease and desist letter. That opens the door to assignment negotiations. Our side could woof, too. I\'m sure Erox would be happier to share the wealth than to bring down too much scrutiny on themselves re FDA and your buddy Ashcroft and who knows who else.

Do I have holes in my head (don\'t answer that!) or does this sound right?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sometimes customers need to let companies know they would like to be able to purchase new products from them. Then the company will know that there is a demand for new products. Companies don\'t automatically know what their customers want, otherwise they wouldn\'t do market research. Customers telling you what they want without you asking them, can be even more valuable than solicited information from people who might not even be potential customers. So I see nothing at all wrong with letting companies that you want to do business with what you would like to be able to buy from them. I\'m not saying you should demand a product from them, but if you let them know they are a lot more likely to do what you want than if no one ever asks them. In most everything you are more likely to get what you want if you ask than if never act on it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, I think Erox knows we what we want, they just don\'t want to associate their name with it. However, I believe Erox did allow their patented products to be used under another name. I don\'t know if anyone is using the N.A. products.

[Irish]

Do any of us on this forum actually plan on starting a lab/company to compete with EROX?? That\'s my point - I don\'t think any of us do. If we did, then of course we could develop sound legal strategies and go after them. But if we are just armchair quarterbacks on this issue, blaring it on the forum and in emails to manufacturers, I\'m afraid all we are likely to accomplish is to alarm EROX and/or our few suppliers, and make life difficult or impossible for \'our side\'. No telling who monitors this forum, as JVK wisely observed once.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Irish, who else is patenting pheromones, do you know? Thanks for encouraging me to read the patents.

I just skimmed through one of their patents and all the things I said about phero\'s effects on me, including the weight loss, are explicable in that patent.
Also, just the one that I read is one of the tightest patents I\'ve ever seen, both from the standpoint of the way it\'s written and from the amount of prior art disclosed. I\'d love to see a file wrapper and read the prosecution history.
I pulled up a hit list of 23 on the U.S. Patent and Trademark site. Anybody wants a list of Pherin patents with \"pheromone\" in the patent, I\'ll send it to you pm.

I\'m shutting the hell up on the subject and probably the rest of us should, too, Irish is right. (as if that were in question, but I had to check it out for myself).

[DrSmellThis]

I\'ve also made the same points in this forum. I agree wholeheartedly.

Erox is keeping most all of the potential pheromones away from consumers. They are the only reason we can\'t use them. Like most any corporation, they couldn\'t care less. Can they blame us for hating them?

Lack of public goodwill sometimes does come back to haunt you, however.

[DrSmellThis]

Post deleted by DrSmellThis

[Irish]

I realy only read in detail the patent related to phero use in perfumed products. I think their thrust concerns steroids that affect the VNO - they developed an instrument to detect electrical activity in the VNO region when exposed to test chemicals. Thats why pheros like nol and none are not included - their focus is really in obtaining effects via the VNO.

I\'m really only interested in the patent issue insofar as I know they have one, and that it\'s likely enough to scare some of our friendly phero producers. I realize there are many legal issues about how strong a particular patent might be, how it could be challenged, etc My only concern here is that I continue to get my pheros, and that I don\'t do anything to stir up trouble for the producers. EROX is probably hopeless as far as producing anything I want, so I\'d hate to see the boat get rocked for the few valid producers we have.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It could hurt a lot. I see now why I never got a response from the department heads I wrote to. We have a direct client conflict. Not Pherin itself but one of the companies they are affiliated with. There\'s no way an attorney in our firm would touch this issue - with a ten foot pole. Like, not even to the extent of writing me back to say no.

SH*T!

[DrSmellThis]

Oh well, good work, FTR.

Let us know (or don\'t?) if you hear any good news.

[Walter]

I still don\'t understand how a company can patent a chemical that EVERYONE makes on their body.
So I am guessing before long we will have to pay Erox for not stopping our bodies from making A-1 or other pheromones?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Walter, you can have a patent on an object or substance - e.g., a copy of a human pheromone. More importantly, you can then patent your METHOD of using that object or substance. So, somebody has a patent on vulcanized rubber. Rubber comes from rubber tree plants, too, right? but this is different. Someone else can come along and say, hey, that vulcanized rubber that Walter made? Well, we made it green, and we\'ve come up for an entirely new use for it. We\'re putting it into condoms for when he shags the girls, \'cause he needs something that won\'t wear out under extreme heat and friction. They can get a patent on that.
See what I mean? So for a substance - not only the substance itself, but all the methods of delivery (gel, atomizer, lotion, put it up your nose, wear it in your hair, powder it on your balls) all those things are methods, and methods are patentable. Not only that. Say you own the patent on the substance and a patent on all the conceivable methods of using that substance. Now someone is messing around with your stuff and they find out that not only does it do all the things you said it did, but also makes purple hair grow out your nose. They can get a patent on your stuff making purple hair grow out your nose. It\'s stuff that\'s already been patented, but now the focus is on the novelty of the effect of the patented substance.
Get it?
For example, the patent on a certain psychotropic used for depression/anxiety disorders was running out (you only get so many years on a patent). Instead of losing complete rights to it, the company that makes that drug made a new patent with the same drug, but asserting that that drug is effective for premenstrual disorder. They put the exact same drug in a package with flowers on it and distributed it as a PMS cure - thus ensuring another 20 years use of a patent worth 5 million dollars a day. Same drug. New use.

[Walter]

Well I guess that makes sense, but the human race has been using pheromones since our race has existed and I don\'t see how they can keep us from using them to attract the other sex.

[Watcher]

The good news is that by supporting those producers that are creative and do research using pheromone compounds that arent pateneted, ie Stones labs etc and james kohl and lecroy and olner (attraction and andro 4.2). Is that this boosts thier profit margins and keeps them in the market. There is plenty of good news coming out of stone labs at the moment so maybe we should get behind phil stone support his products.

He did bring us EW of course - so maybe he has other things up his sleeves. We just keep using NPA and maybe even start pushing realm (maybe erox might wake up - i doubt it but anyway) The market can be strengthened through those other means.

[Walter]

Yeah but imagine if you could use all the pheros that Erox has locked up.
You could have a 20 or 30 phero mix.

Imagine the OD you could pull with that Watcher.