Suggestions on NPAs true contents

[Watcher]

Ok if anyone has any ideas they would be appreciated.
2 secret ingredients in addition to the none content this goes for the edge to. So anyone my ideas are.

a1 - androstadinenone
couplins.

Ive received plenty of flack but if anyone has any other suggestions they would be appreciated.

[DrSmellThis]

I don\'t know, but I do think one of the extra ingredients is really crucial for a natural pheromone signature.

[MaxiMog]

Why don\'t they just say what the secret ingredients are? It at least could help us understand the effectiveness of NPA aside of the -none... I guess it\'s just a bit more tempting to buy it...

[DrSmellThis]

I understand part of the reason, if -- and this is a big if -- one of the secret ingredients is A1. They couldn\'t reveal that one, legally.

However, with arts that stand to benefit humankind as much as pheromonology does, researchers have a responsibility to their art, and not just their pocketbooks. What LaCroy does is similar to drug companies not releasing some \"secret ingredients\" that cure cancer. The same goes for Erox and their stupid patent on the mixing of A1. You shouldn\'t be able to patent human biology.

What? \"This is ridiculous\", you say? \"You can\'t compare the two situations\", you say? I\'m \"insensitive to cancer victims and their families\", you say?

Well, yes I can, and I\'m not insensitive. I\'ve had cancer in my family, and I hope to not have any more. Cancer is an outrageously important topic to humanity during a brief portion of many of our lives. On the other hand, having a good romanic and sex life is very, very important to humanity, during most of all of our lives.

Which issue is more significant overall? If you lack health, little else matters until you get your health back. If you have health, however, health matters little compared to sex and romance, for most of us poor sobs: \"Prostate? What prostate? What\'s a prostate?\"

LaCroy has a responsibility to tell us what\'s in there! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

[Irish]

LaCroy doesn\'t have a resposibility to reveal their proprietary formula, any more than Coca-Cola does. They aren\'t a public research arm or a gov\'t agency - they make pheros for sale for crying out loud.

Any agency or lab with the money can research phero effects, and many do. If you want to further the science of pheros I\'m sure any of those labs would accept a donation check. Research papers on human phero effects are available in abundance right off the web (typically for a FEE).

EROX has most of the potentially legitimate human pheros tied up with patents. Anyone found using those pheros in cologne will not be forced to give their formulas to science - they will be FORCED TO CEASE making the product, and possibly forced out of business by EROX lawyers.

If we keep hounding our fine suppliers we may wind up with fewer products to use.

[DrSmellThis]

Irish, I agree it would be a shame if we had fewer products to use. I hope we do not really hound anyone by helping them to do the best things for their customers\' needs, such as disclosure. I appreciate what LaCroy has done. Thanks for reminding us to think of that.

I love all things Irish. However, my point wasn\'t that just public researchers have a public responsibility, it was that all researchers do. And everyone on this board already does their part by paying for the products, field testing them, and publishing their results on this site. Bruce gives us a token of his appreciation by offering us special deals on his products. And if someone is using \"corporate patented human biology\", I guess they wouldn\'t reveal that, regardless of how much they were \"hounded\". And we aren\'t suggesting anything to \"anyone\" that \"anyone\" hasn\'t already thought of.

I must admit I think what Erox is doing is a bit unethical, as it prevents competition from occuring; as Erox didn\'t invent any pheromones, since pheros are basic human biological compounds; and, as they probably didn\'t invent any groundbreaking laboratory pheromone synthesis processes. What they are doing is like if Coca-cola would patent the use of lime, orange, lemon, vanilla, neroli, cinnamon, cola nut, caffeine, or corn syrup (incidentally if you mix some of these secret ingredients with natural amber and pheromones you get a lovely aphrodisiac cologne that smells like Coke [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] ) in anything that could be loosely considered a drink. What they did do is like when settlers staked a claim on Native American land just because they found it before other setlers, even though the Native Americans didn\'t leave it anywhere. We\'re always trying to claim we own things we can never own. Parents in the West even think they own their kids.

Currently Erox isn\'t offering jack squat to run of the mill pheromone users like ourselves, even though their website brags about all the wonderful things they are doing for humanity. I hope LaCroy and Stone have good lawyers too, and can challenge what Erox is trying to do. Humanity does stand to benefit in myriad ways by pheromone science, and Erox shouldn\'t be entrusted with the whole task.

But then again I like Ralph Nader [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] .

[Irish]

In a utopia everyone would work for the common good, share fairly, be completely democratic, etc. Unfortunately, we are all grredy and have come up with \'civilization\' to control and limit our individual greed for the common good. It\'s imperfect, but it\'s what we have and it\'s not so bad really.

No company is in business for altruistic reasons. They have to make money. The employees have to be paid, so they can feed their families. To give away company secrets, paid for by corporate resources and employee labor, is business suicide. Sure, it may serve customer \'needs\' (in this case what, curiosity?), but that\'s not why they\'re in business. They work to maximize income for their corporate family of citizens. They offer customers products they can\'t easily make for themself and are willing to pay for. If they teach others their hardwon secrets or give away their products they will cease to exist as a company. It\'s the first rule of survival.

The patent system is in place to protect those who go to the huge expense of developing products - those that do the work shall reap the benefits. Sure it\'s imperfect, but the basic idea is right - why should scientists devote years of labor to product development and give it away free? Who will pay the rent for lab employees that develop this stuff? Will people work for nothing for years to give away the fruits of their labor to people who want it for nothing? Sorry, I just don\'t get it...

I agree Erox isn\'t serving the needs of their customers by their product line. But they played by the rules and they can do what they want with the fruits of their labor. Why should companies challenge them and fight to the death for no good reason? Every company has trade secrets, and they have the legal right to protect them. Infringers are breaking the law and risking the livlihood of their own employees. Even companies that develop miracle drugs patent them and recover the development cost by selling the drugs. Everything must be paid for, including the salaries of lab emplyees who work to develop products.

Rather than tell others to give away their work for nothing, the answer is really simple. Develop these products yourself - raise the funds, hire the experts, build the facilities, etc. Then give the products away for the greater good of all. Or donate your own salary to a young scientist interested in pheros, so he can feed his family while he works on the Free-Phero project.

It\'s always easy to tell others what to do with their assets/money. The test is if you are willing to help the effort with your own pocketbook...

[DrSmellThis]

You do great justice to the dignified tradition of Irish fiestiness. Too many people imagine ethics are based upon rights: If I have a legal right to do so-and-so, it is therefore ethical, because it\'s a free country. I could do many horrendous, but perfectly legal things, however.

I\'m certainly not suggesting pheromone corporations shouldn\'t make money or have patents; shouldn\'t pay their workers, or should give away their products. But maximizing shareholder wealth is not a sacred moral law in my book. In a competetive marketplace, sometimes corporations fold and workers need to find other jobs. You mentioned in passing the patent system isn\'t perfect. Maybe that\'s worth looking at with more than a passing glance (not to mention the pharmaceuticals industry. Sure, it\'s your right: feel free to patent those HIV drugs, and keep them from 90% of the positive folks...) I admit I\'m not a patent attorney and haven\'t studied the Erox situation. I\'m only expressing an amateur opinion about something that isn\'t currently that big of a deal in the scheme of things.

Nonetheless, pheromone customers\' needs are perhaps not so trivial as our sexual-shame infused culture would have us believe. We have a legitimate need to be more romantically and sexually empowered. Our culture has become in the past 100 years more and more infused with isolation and mistrust, which inhibits the cohesion and formation of families and communities. Pheromones can help balance that out a bit. It would be nice for people to have access the existing info. Still, there are obviously more important things than pheromones to argue about. But I\'m not sure it\'s fair to tell us we need to start talking with our pocketbooks when most of us are contributing to the cause as much as we can afford to.

I myself am so busy pontificating I forgot what the topic was. Peace, out, as they say.

[Watcher]

If erox have these patents one would think that they would actually produce good products to cash in on the pheromone market but they do very little obviously someone in that company has no profit motive or is just plain stupid. If they had good products they could be sold on this website and make the erox company quite a bit of money but what do we get - nothing or very little so i guess its wasted opportunity. Which just leads to the competition getting a leg up and make money simple. I certainly dont care what they do but it does seem quite stupid.

[MaxiMog]

I\'m going to be strict on this: when I pay for something, no matter what, I want to know what\'s in it. Being it Coca Cola, or NPA, I\'d rather know what I drink or wear. They owe me!!!

[Whitehall]

Knowledge is power and power is money.

[DrSmellThis]

So money must be knowledge. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

[Whitehall]

Sophist!