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  1. #1
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    Default Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    visit-red-300x50PNG
    Just wondering if the solvent has an effect to the efficacy of the Pheros. I read from the advertisement of APC that \"even minutes amount of alcohol destroys pheros\". I also read an article that when ethanol is used as solvent for Androstenone, the female response to Androstenone decreases, due to the fact the the A-None will smell bad if dissolved in Ethanol.

    From Chemistry, Androstenone is a very stable compound that Alcohol cannot destroy the A-None and Sigma-Aldrich can attest to this.

    In practice PI uses Ethanol as well as the Stone Labs products like the Chem Set uses at least 50% ethanol solvent.

    How bout you guys what did you observe when using an alcohol and oil based phero products?

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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    alcohol based colognes evaporate faster than the oil based. alcohol does not kill the phero\'s. many of the alcohol based products on this site are very good products and the people who use them know that they work.


    i read that an alcohol base kills phero\'s quite awhile ago at e-bay from that guy who sells APC he\'s just trying to get more buisness telling everone that half the other phero products don\'t work. trying to make his product seam a safe bet.


    one of the recent posts on the board talked about this too

    all your base are belong to us -god-

  3. #3
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    Default Check the stone labs site

    Check this website because it has the details that to produce the pheromones alcohol is actually used in the purfication process so therefore they do not destroy pheromones and most of the products i have used and found to have worked. List below

    andro 4.2
    attraction
    the edge
    NPA
    P10
    Lure
    Yes
    APC i think

    Now that is a far whack plus the majority of the stone labs and others products ie PCC
    and some of the others ie AFA so forget that whole bullshit selling scam site.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    This *MAY* belong on the other forum, but since it got its start here, I\'ll ask / speculate:

    I\'m assuming that the pheros we\'re buying are synthetic, that is, a chemical compound identical to the natural ones, though NOT actually natural. I would think that *NATURAL* ones would be \"killed,\" -for lack of a better term- by alcohol, but not synthetics.

    Just something I\'ve been thinking about for a while... And no, when I\'m at work, I actually DON\'T have anything \"better\" to think about! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    Phero\'s aren\'t alive. Natural or synthetic. They are organic molecules, not living cells. They can\'t be \"killed.\" In general, the difference between natural and synthetic preparations is the composition of impurities. The things that \"accompany\" natural production and isolation of _lots_ of things - perfumes, flavorings - are usually different from the things that accompany synthetic production of the same compounds. It\'s definately possible that alcohol could _affect_ natural pheros differently than synthetic - because of soluability differences of the impurities of the natural vs the synthetic preparations. But the sites that warn of alcohol _killing_ pheros are just spewing hype...

    The article that referred to pheros in alcohol smelling bad has already been discussed in this forum. It was a flawed experimental design. Phero\'s plus alcohol were placed under a subject\'s nose. That doesn\'t happen in practice, unless you\'re having your target sniff it out of the bottle - the alcohol normally evaporates.

    Considering the subtleness of perfume drydown, it wouldn\'t surprise me if phero\'s in alcohol behaved very differently over time than the same phero\'s in oil / di-glycols. Especially in the presence of complex masking perfumes. But that\'s a very different topic than that of alcohol \"destroying\" the pheros.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    BassMan...

    What do believe the best base would be as a carrier for pheromones? Are there any advantages to one over the other or is it more an issue of preference? Will one allow the pheros to last longer on the skin over some of the others?

    Anyway just curious, especially if I decide to purchase one of the Phero Chem Sets.

    Thanks,
    Blues_Man

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    Good question. There\'s been lots of discussion on that topic in the past, take a look through the archives. And I\'m sure others will respond.

    The pheros in the chem set are dissolved in ethyl alcohol (EtOH). I make up mixes using both alcohol-based colognes and grain alcohol when I play with the chem set stuff. I think if you buy the set (I bought them individually, so I have the big bottles [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ) you get a bottle of 50% EtOH to dilute them. Vodka is basically 50% EtOH, although less pure than the reagent stuff.

    SOE, RM, AE, PF, APC, and a bunch of others are dissolved in various glycols. Glycols are also types of alcohols. So you can, for example, add chem set none to SOE and everything will mix just fine.

    A few things, most notably PI, currently come in an oil base. The new PI appears to be made up in mineral oil. I use olive oil dosed with an anti-oxidant (Vit. E) to thin PI. You can use about any vegetable oil you like. If you try to add PI to cologne, it settles to the bottom in little globules.

    There\'s no real easy way to say which carrier is best. There\'s been debate as to whether oil based mixes last longer than alcohol based, again, you can find it in the archives. There\'s currently some talk of the fixatives in the colognes that we mix with affecting the disbursal of the pheros. Makes sense to me. That theory could explain why certain colognes work particularly well.

    My own experience is that pheros behave very similarly to other fragrances - different components of a mix seem to disburse at different rates, causing the scent to change over time, along with the hits. I do have a theory that this is why one sometimes has to play with a mix for days/weeks before getting optimal response - some mixes seem to take a while to reach equilibrium between the amount put on, the amount showered off, and all the complicated stuff happening on your skin.

    All that said, DrSmellThis is our resident perfumer, and has worked with scent at levels far beyond my limited knowledge. What you think of all this, doc?

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    BassMan,

    Appreciate all the great info! It\'s obvious you\'ve worked with pheros for some time and know the subject well.

    When you brought up the idea of fixatives in colognes affecting the disbursal of the pheros, were you speaking here of when pheromones are actually mixed into a specific cologne or also including when a cologne is sprayed over and existing application of pheros?

    I also read in another post where you mentioned the similarity phero\'s might have to the subtleness of perfume dry down. If phero\'s in alcohol really do behaved differently over time than the same phero\'s in oil/di-glycol bases do you think it\'s a beneficial trait? In other words would alcohol/ethanol create a more conducive environment for the pheros to blend with your skin and natural chemistry?

    At this point, I think I might go ahead and order a Chem Set and mix up each phero (NONE, NOL, RONE) in separate mixes. This way I can experiment with applying them in different amounts to see what ratio or relationship to one another would work the best for me personally. This also allows me to cover them with any cologne or scent I choose. Do you think this is a practical approach or will I have problems masking the smell of pure pheromones when used alone in an ethanol base?

    The good DrSmellThis unfortunately has been on hiatus concerning this topic or more directly this post.

    PS - Don\'t mean to become a bother but can you also offer any advise on this related post of mine: http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB5&Number=21402& amp;page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&amp ;fpart=

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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    Well, I might as well chime in on this. EtOH vs Oil. The oil application will be in a very small area and quite potent. The booze application is much more likely to cover a larger area because is flows so well. The carriers should not effect the pheros at all. The release rates of the pheros should not be to different between the carriers. Your skin is full of oil, and the pheros reside there. Reasons I like EtOH better than oil, it is easier to manipulate. I like to put my mix in an atomizer and spray the pheros to the desired spot. It won\'t sterilize you skin either, trust me on that one. I also like to spray on the pheros and then follow with an aroma cover. The two step process allows freedom to use different mixes/aromas. The chem kit has served me well, and it is always fun to holler, \"Igor hold my calls, I\'ll be in the Lab!!!\"

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    The chemset is fun and allows you to simulate many of the brand names. You can mix small batches and try out different cologne/phero mix combos. The only \'problem\' is you need to be somewhat organized to learn anything, other wise you just start mixing stuff wild and don\'t really know what you\'ve got. There\'s also the tendency to mix up stuff that\'s too strong, since these reagents are pretty potent compared to what you buy in the brand name products. It\'s good to begin with the formulas of the brand name products (available in a handy spreadheet somewhere on this site) and use those mixtures as starting points for your experiments.

    I\'d recommend the following:

    Little vials for mixing and storing small trials: try http://www.sunburstbottle.com/ they sell great glass vials and their service is great - no minimums

    Labels for the vials, and a good notebook to keep track of what the mixes are and how they\'re working for you

    A bunch of eyedroppers, cheap from the drugstore. Dedicate a dropper to different chems so you don\'t cross-contaminate or have to wash droppers all the time.

    Little plastic medicine cups from the drugstore - handy for mixing with cologne or cleaning up.

    Bottle of Everclear from the liquor store if available in your state. Great for diluting mixes, cleaning up, and mixing in your lemonade (I do that, but don\'t recommend it). I like ethanol as a carrier cause it\'s so easy to mix, and it evaporates quickly leaving a an invisible phero film on your skin. Since colognes typically use ethanol as a carrier I figure they know what they\'re doing. I usually apply cologne first, let dry, they apply phero mix (spray or dab) on top, so the phero doesn\'t get \'sealed in\' under the cologne film.

  11. #11
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    I just lost 2 drafts of posts, so these are just some notes.

    IMO oil is better. Time release. denatured palm oil (best. never spoils, stays on skin surface) or jojoba (absorbs, eventually spoils). ethanol makes you lose $ to evaporation. IMO ethanol base only good for mixing with oil based perfumes, spraying on clothes/hair, manufacturing to dissolve reagent. If you want rapid dispersal like chem warfare, fine. OD anyone?

    It\'s personal preference.

    I have chem set. I make up small batches and dilute with jojoba, as I\'m out of DNPO. gets cloudy but OK.

    More later.

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    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    I just lost 2 drafts of posts, so these are just some notes.

    IMO oil is better. Time release. denatured palm oil (best. never spoils, stays on skin surface) or jojoba (absorbs, eventually spoils). Ethanol makes you lose $ to evaporation. IMO ethanol base only good for general perfumery, mixing with oil based perfumes, spraying on clothes/hair, manufacturing to dissolve reagent. If you want rapid dispersal like chem warfare, fine. OD anyone? Oil base better for pheromones. Easier to handle. Add essential oil fixative if you wish. Helps very much, especially with Edge.

    It\'s personal preference.

    I have chem set. I make up small batches and dilute with jojoba, as I\'m out of DNPO. gets cloudy but OK.

    More later.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    But the sollubility of pheros are not that good for oil. The manufacturer suggest us to use ethanol or glycol solvents for the pheros. Did you observe this also?

    It took me 24 hrs to dissolve Androstenone in ethanol and i think that it will take longer if i used an oil solvent.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    Man I HATE losing posts or anything else I spend the time to write, an unfortunate all to common occurrence with me when using computers!

    So what\'s the basic diff between denatured palm oil and natural palm oil... will the latter work just as well? A denatured alcohol, I believe is made non consumable by mixing a percentage of something else along with adding a displeasing smell so people will know not to ingest it. Is this a similar process to what they would do to denature an oil?

    I use Jojoba Oil for mixing up essential oils and although I like it\'s texture, I find it penetrates the skin very rapidly. I\'m wondering if it\'s quick absorption characteristics might cause problems with the dispersal of the phero\'s when used as a base?

    I\'ve read where others on the board have used Vegetable Glycerine. However, it\'s a very thick and sticky substance that easily acts as a humectant or moisture equalizer, which again might interfere with the pheros depending on the climate or environment you\'re wearing them in.

    I\'m actually considering trying Fractionated (refined) Coconut oil which is said to be the closest substance to human subcutaneous fat. Do you have any experience with this type of oil? It\'s more compatible with skin than vegetable oils and has a virtually unlimited shelf life, since it cannot turn rancid.

    I think using a refined, sterilized carrier like this, which has a nice light texture that washes out of clothing very easily and will not clog pores, might have some benefits as a base. Although I\'m not sure of it\'s absorption rate once on the skin.

    BTW - I\'m looking for a thread that contained info, including a link, for the percentage ratio\'s of ethanol based colognes made from e-oils... my searches have been fruitless thus far.

  15. #15
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    Ethanol:essential oils depends on strength of the ethanol and what you\'re going for. I often use 200 proof ethanol, 2 parts to oils, one part, for a strong perfume. colognes are more dilute, and aftershaves are more dilute still, and often contain water and sometimes witch hazel.

    DNPO is what the pros use. The denaturant might prevent it from spoiling, I forget. I\'m in the process of experimenting with regular palm oil.

    Actually, with chem set pheros, I\'d add strong ethanol first, as the 50/50 ratio is too weak to be able to mix it with other oils. You need at least 150 proof to be able to mix it with oils. Then take that mix and dilute further with carrier oil.

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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    \"I\'m actually considering trying Fractionated (refined) Coconut oil\"
    I had a look on the net about coconut oil. Yeah, it seems to be ok for the skin - the point is that it seems to penetrate the skin rather quickly, so the question would be : what kind of smell will stay if oil gets into the skin ? (considering that EW stinks, which a lot of people are saying).
    But, this taken apart, coconut oil is a component of monoi - and it\'s really a very, very nice fragrance ! Being a woman, I really like it.

    The other question is : where can one get pure coconut oil ? in asian foodstores ? or bio & natural shops ? I live in Europe and I\'ve no idea.

    I have another question : some of you are talking about EtOH, which is ethanol if I\'m not wrong. Where do you get it ?

    Frenchie :-)

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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    Hi, Frenchie! Do a search on monoi tiari tahiti. You can buy it online for not much. I tried all the scented ones and the sandalwood is scrumptious, but as I recall, they sell it unscented too. It feels good all over for after bath and makes your hair like silk when you use it as a hot oil treatment.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    thanks FullTiltRedhead, I will have a look.
    I also left a post on the women forum so that people react.

    Frenchie

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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    -------BTW - I\'m looking for a thread that contained info, including a link, for the percentage ratio\'s of ethanol based colognes made from e-oils... my searches have been fruitless thus far


    Were you looking for general oil/carrier ratios? I don\'t have a link, but from my notes:

    Perfume 15-30%
    Eau de Perfume 8-20%
    EDT 4-8%
    ED Cologne 2-5%
    Splash cologne (aftershave?) 1-3%

    Random data - don\'t know source - experts may dispute. I understand the carrier is typically grain alcohol/water mix of unknown (to me!) proportions.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    Where can you get the 200 proof ethanol?

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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    You haven\'t really asked ....

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    Doc...

    OK, you hit on some things I should have realized, naturally they seem obvious now after you\'ve pointed them out. I\'m still a newbie in the area of using e-oils, though I have successfully created some nice mixes using jojoba oil. I\'m basically looking to take one or two of these mixes and change them into an EDT spray for further experimentation with pheros.

    I\'m sure I can find Everclear grain alcohol where I live but what about the 99-100% pure stuff? Where can I also find DNPO? Is it available anywhere on-line?

    Hey, have you ever heard of using Polysorbate 20 (sometimes known as TWEEN20) o dissolve essential oils into distilled water without adding alcohol. You add equal parts of your essential oil and Polysorbate 20, then slowly add distilled water up to 3 parts to 1 part essential oil if needed.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    Irish...

    Actually was looking for the precentage/ratio breakdown of components within a spray cologne which would include, the scented oils, the carrier (ethanol), and distilled water. Those numbers are a definite help though.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Alcohol based Vs. Oil based Pheros.

    BassMan...

    Great links, gracias.

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