Lots of articles on how good guys winning but...

[slatedrake]

Read the \"Heartless Bitches\" article at:

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

I pretty much agree with everything written there...hell, I\'d like to meet the woman that wrote it, she knows what she\'s talking about.

Too often, the \"nice guys\" I\'ve know have been exactly as described, insecure boys that can\'t relate to woman as other people and put them up on these pedistals. Guys that want to save woman are the worst too....give me a break!

I think that article made a ton of sense. Be yourself, love yourself, treat woman like you would treat a buddy of yours, stop bullshitting them and start listening.

I don\'t know, I haven\'t had all that much trouble finding cool girls.

Slate

[Watcher]

I just like to be conversial i hear this from friends of mine all the time im a nice guy why doesnt she go for me bla bla i still am like that a little but with so much bullshit going on latley its time to concentrate on self development (heck there being nothing wrong with looking after oneself first and taking a break from the dating game - it is actively encouraged by women so why not. They might not so much attention from me but hey go find another nice guy. All is fair in love and war. Especially with todays society aggressive attitude, take advantage of everyone around think of the self first i recon more people should do it actually and stop complaining about how nasty the world is - make it nastier.

[DrSmellThis]

Looking at it as \"nice versus jerks\" traps us men into an old self-defeating prison created by women who have stereotyped that men are either \"nice\" or jerks. I didn\'t say \"IMHO\" because we should never apologize for having an opinion. \"Alpha male\" means for me coming into my own as a male: I don\'t give a rat\'s *&^ what women or anyone else thinks. I know I\'m a great guy. I\'m certainly dominant compared to a woman. I like sharing power, but if women disrespect me by trying to dominate me they are going to lose. I\'m willing to act like an [censored] if that\'s what someone makes themselves into seeing out of me. It\'s not my responsibility to waste time trying to make Jerry Springer rejects understand me. If I decide I want something I will have it, including a woman. A woman can decide \"no,\", but most women will allow themselves to be owned and taken, because they are not fully conscious of their choices. That is one reason, but not the only reason, why \"nice\" guys feel unreasonably rejected. \"Nice\" guys, the way \"nice\" is typically happening, are just nice to get approval, not because that\'s who they are. Of course, there has to be some chemistry, sexiness and sweetness there for me to want it. Women do not have what men have physically, sexually, emotionally, and cognitively, and they sorely need it. God they are aching for it, and I might just have to give it to a few of them. We own the alpha male attitude. It is us. We are not altar boys. Deal.

[Whitehall]

ditto

[a.k.a.]

Great article!

With regards to being alpha... It’s all fine for work and career advancement, but the most I could feel for a submissive woman would be pity.

[DrSmellThis]

Nature is constant, so I like to go with it rather than fight it. Women seem to like a man to have some dominant qualites. Perhaps it makes them feel safe and stable. When all is said and done, we\'re all equals in the dance, but somebody has to lead to make it fun. We don\'t have to act fake, and neither do they. For men, most of us have insecurities, neediness and shame that makes us try to be artificially \"nice\", which is different from compassionate, caring, sensitive, and sweet. Nice is nutrasweet.

aka I agree with you if you mean a woman with no spine; no perspective she owns up to; no responsibility for what she wants and does. This is pitiful, just like the nutrasweet man.

[CptKipling]

From that heartless bitches website:

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after \"hard luck\" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are \"helpers\". A Nice Guy thinks that by \"helping\" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.


And yet this is another reason that some women go for jerks! (Ooh i just love picking open someone\'s argument!)

Anyone want to pick up on the psychological implications of this? To be honest, i cant pin them down, but there is something...

[rjm]

Yeah, I got the \"nice guy\" bit too, and some of it may have been from seeking approval... That\'s why I\'m still single.

ANYway, Watcher makes a good point in that you have to take care of yourself first. If you don\'t take care of yourself, you can\'t take care of others -- you know, the whole \"dead hero\" bit.

I don\'t feel pity anymore for those who are screwed up and don\'t do at least something to straighten themselves out. I don\'t mean the job; the clothes, or any of that; I mean look at what the influences were that brought you to where you are. If those influences are damaging, leave them behind! No, it won\'t be easy, but just as much as I have to deal with my upbringing, so does everyone else. I used to feel pity, but then, that\'s when I was psychic-vampire food; for better or worse, I actually feel contempt for a LOT of people who either are or were in my world; this is the whole bunch that just want to use me, and they\'ll use you too if you give them the chance.

I don\'t look for DST\'s \"hard luck\" cases; they seem to smell me out of a crowd, and this was BEFORE I found this place! These are the Psychic Vampires.


I printed the HB website article; will read it when I get home. BTW, how do you guys FIND all these cool sites; I wouldn\'t even think of looking for them! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Whitehall]

The end result is that alpha males get more and BETTER women. The \"nice guys\" have to hunt the dregs.

[Watcher]

As far as helping oneself get over those issues that hold them back well NLP is a extremely good technique once again and the MMA techniques also help (mind mapping association) before you ask what they are do a websearch and go find the stuff its to much to explain.
And make sure you are good, switch off the sex drive for a while and concentrate on youreself (women wont like it at all because you are not focusing on them but sometimes i say screw them anyway they waste so much time stroking our egos (feed youre own ego instead) and use a1 to improve the \"bitchy types\" mood or as has been said in the past \"attention whores\" - conterversial label designed to encourage some extreme views or attention seekers who are to lazy to actually follow through and are only after attention.
Hard luck cases in other words.

[franki]

What do you mean by switching the sex drive off? Should I stop masturbating, something that you talked about a lot but that is out of the question for me. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[CptKipling]

No that would make you more horny.

He means stop thinking with your penis, to use a womans term.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t believe that a woman has responded yet.

First off, I\'ll start by saying that this thread is incredibly long. Therefore, I\'ve read most of but not all of the replies. Feel free to say something if i ask a question that\'s already been answered. Although I think my job here is to answer, not ask...

All right, here I go. Everyone wants to know why nice guys don\'t get anything from girls. Where to start...

I know plenty of nice guys. For one, many of them just aren\'t attractive enough for me. I don\'t know if looking good goes to your head or what but finding a nice, goodlooking guy is HARD. And I can\'t speak for the rest of the female population, but I\'m one of those gals who refuse to settle for less.

I\'m saddened to read that many of you actively repress your inner nice-guy to get chicks. You think that if you\'re a jerk, you\'ll get more girls. That\'s partially true, but nowhere near the answer. The answer lies in not just the truth, but the WHOLE truth.

The whole truth is that, yes, sometimes girls are attracted to that whole dark thing. Yes, sometimes nice guys put us off. Usually, this is something that experiance cures. I know that the older women in my life, such as aunt\'s, older cousins, etc, all look back on ex-boyfriends and say \"god, why am I with such and so? I could have done so much better with any of the others. But i fell for his looks, charm, and body. Now I know that, above all, find someone who loves you, cares for you, and has a tenderness near his heart.\"

Not in so many words, of couse

But what about those less experienced women? Well, you really have to disect what it is about those jerks we love. Is it the fact that they treat women like crap? Come on, 98.999% can\'t be masochistic, can we?

The bottom line is they ooze confidence. The things I look for in guys are: good looks, intelligence, kindness, romance, sense of humor and wit, charm, and plenty of confidence. I can assure you that most women look for almost the same things.

You can easily be nice and still be confident. You can still buy her flowers, treat her nice, and do her favors. Just be clear that you are not doing this in an effort to be \"worthy\", cause that\'ll get old so fast. Also be sure to show that you\'re nobody\'s doormat. One thing I left out of my list, and perhaps the one thing I love the most, is an indomitable will. Strength of mind, boys, remember.

And if you feel like you have to show a little jerkiness, show it in front of her but to someone else. Don\'t do this too much, because a girl always gets suspicious if you come off two faced. However, it never hurts to show her she\'s special to you and deserves special treatment.

Hope this helps and I\'m glad to answer any more questions regarding our, ahem, \"warped?\" minds. <raises brow>

Sincerely,
someone

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I will agree with some/much of the stuff said here, but there are still some problems. You can be nice and confident, yes, buying a girl flowers and chocolates and doing favors when you haven\'t gotten anything yet is called supplicating (Thanks ASF!) and is basically rewarding her for doing nothing essentially. This is a good way to get nowhere fast. If you are in a relationship with a girl, then of course there is the mutual give-give on both parties end, ie:favor\'s, flowers, chocolates, but this comes off a desperate in trying to start a relationship. If you are confident, then there should be many females that should want you, are you going to buy them all something? This could get expensive, and contradicts the point that you are worth having, and should be fought over.

I am not exactly saying that you contradicted this, but this is just another point that should be factored into the equation. Also the consideration that men are the ones who initialize the contact, talk to the girl, call her for date, not the other way around. So when men are actually going up to a girl to start something, they want something back of course, so if the girl is only planning on using and abusing (like an overconfident female) then she deserves to have some neg-hits (Thanks ASF!) in order to realize you are worth it, so maybe this is a test on the female part to see if the male is actually worth it.

Regardless however, being a jerk doesnt\' get you anywhere, that is just plain rude (and spiteful). But letting a girl know that in your opinion she is not all that, if she is one of those alpha girls or whatever (I just made that one up, 9-10), then this can be acomplished without being rude, simply by making your observations clear to her. If this is considered being a jerk by the female then she has some serious ego problems.......

[rjm]

I gotta disagree with the bit about \"buying a girl flowers and chocolates and doing favors when you haven\'t gotten anything yet is called supplicating.\" I don\'t do these things just to get into her pants.

What has been my experience though, is this: I buy flowers, hold doors, pull out chairs, etc. I do this because I try to actually be a thoughtful gentleman - one of the few useful things in my upbringing. The responses I\'ve gotten were \"You try too hard,\" and (in ref to getting a car door) \"I\'m not a cripple.\"

(Uh, I was being thoughtful, but if that\'s how you want to play it, then fine; get your own door, and I can save you the effort of hunting for a vase. I would much prefer to do this stuff, but if you shoot me down about it, I can turn this bit off, much as I can shut down any other aspect of my personality.)

Someone:
I\'m kinda confused about there not being enough \"nice-looking guys.\" Are you admitting to being, as a female, as shallow as us guys? [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] What you\'ll find, and probably already have found, is that a good (?) percentage of the \"nice-looking guys\" are quite aware of their appearance, and are looking for fun only. Kinda sucks if you\'re more interested in something longer-term.
Now, having read what you said YOU look for, I\'ll admit to being about average-looking from what I see around me to compare. I may have lacked confidence initially in relationships, but as the comfort-level settles, that goes away. At the risk of sounding a bit overconfident, I\'d say I meet all of the other requirements you list, but still can\'t seem to find a female who not an abusive, or otherwise screwed up, (sorry, but here it comes -- ) bitch.

BTW, I do wish to thank you for being here to give us some info. Maybe if there were more people in general who would actually talk, and fewer who play the stupid games, we\'d all be a lot happier.

[CptKipling]

Good points well made.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i agree with you SOMEONE
but the biggest problem is this dependency on a super confident guy when the girl herself has all these issues and \"unsurities\"...and there are nice good looking guys...the ladies man...and frankly i think most girls are foolish to fall for the jerks...but yes, you don\'t have to be a jerk at all

[**DONOTDELETE**]

MOST people lack self confidence. Women waiting for men with self confidence are picking from a very small percentage of the whole. Since they rate confidence so highly, they are forced, then, to select men who are self-confident and jerks over men who are self-conscious but perfectly nice. The irony, of course, is that a large number of these women are looking for self-confident men precisely because they lack any real self-confidence themselves. They seek the most desireable mate even though, by their own standards, they are themselves undesireable.

Somebody \'splain this to me...

[Whitehall]

I think the 20/80 rule applies here: 20% of the guys (the confident ones) get 80% of the available women.

Women do want the best man they can get as their lover. No one is completely self-confident all the time in all situations but an inner strength does show through. Women are the weaker sex and should rightly prize physical and mental strength in a man. It is a tough, cruel world out there and a man\'s role as a protector and provider is an essential one. If he doesn\'t have the balls to strike up a conversation with a woman and risk rejection or to insist that his rights and boundaries be respected, how in Hell can she rely on him to battle for her and her offspring?

The hard fact is that both men and women have to compete for the best mates. Men do have to try a little harder since any woman who wants can have sex if she lowers her standards enough - many more men than women never get any.

The book to read is \"Sperm Wars\" if you want the inside scoop on just how we men compete and how women don\'t make it easy for us.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

it\'s easy for a woman to get laid
that is so true

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\"Women are the weaker sex and should rightly prize physical and mental strength in a man\"

I would disagree with this comment, Alexander the Great was a physically feeble scrawny and emaciated person, but still was condired a great leader. Empress Nicaula of the Epiopians had unsurpassing skills in politics, government, and sovereign justice, as well as Queen Fredegund of France. As with regards to physical strength, Quenn Semiramis as a woman of great strength at the time she was though to have been the sister of the great god Jupiter, and daughter of the ancient god Saturn, , who were believed to be gods of the earth and sea. Also the Amazons were often unequaled in strength...........

OK, enough history, other than point I agree most with what you said, mabye not ANY women who wants to have sex will get it, but any girl who tried the least maybe (IE:not fat slob) Also physical defects or sht like that. But yes, many more men than women never get any, which means a woman can put in a litle effort, don\'t order pizza all the time, and she can gfet sex. HOWEVER, whether she will be able to get GOOD sex is an entire different matter, and girls want to be pumped very well for sure, which is far more important that having a guy merely stick his dick in her.....

[Watcher]

When i say turn off to sex, i did mean stop thinking with yure dick and think with the brain it gets one a lot further.

[rjm]

Well, I not only think with the upper head (), but I seem to be the only male I know, at least in the physical world here, that can just shut off any interest at all. It serves its purpose.

cmorera:
I\'m curious -- where you said about buying a girl flowers and such is rewarding her for doing nothing -- if two people are together in this relationship, then shouldn\'t they want to be together in all ways?
It kind of seems to me that the point you made is that we\'re \"buying\" sex, which to some extent may be true on both sides of the relationship, but it just seems as though you\'re saying \"if you me, then you have to buy me stuff.\" It certainly has the feel of the discussion about the guys being jerks... (\"If you want me around, you\'re gonna spread \'em.\")

Somehow, both seem like dead relationships to me.

BTW, in general:
It would be nice to know who\'s male and who\'s female around here... Obviously, I\'m a male, Oscar is, and I think Watcher is [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]... Some of the others, too, but I gotta admit that although cmorera reads like a female, some of the comments in that earlier post have a definite male sound to them, esp. the bit I referenced above...

[upsidedown]

I agree that it would be nice to know male or female on the writer without having to figure it out from the context of their post.

I wonder if there\'s any way that the user profiles on this board could be modified to include a place to indicate this?

[Irish]

If science is to be believed, women want both types of men, only at different times and for different purposes.

Johnston et. al. (Evolution and Human Behavior 22 [2001] 251-267) showed rather convincingly that women prefer an \'alpha\' male (masculinized features) at times of their PEAK FERTILITY and for SHORT TERM sex, even though they rate such alphas as more likely to have negative and hostile personality traits (not likely to form long relationships). At other times in women\'s cycle they reverted to less masculinized (\'nicer\') preferences in mate choice. Note that masculinized features actually do correlate well with what we consider alpha men - higher testosterone levels that sculpted their features at puberty, and that also influence current behavior (more fights, inclination to compete, etc.).

At peak fertility women are also several times more likely to cheat on their spouse.

If I can simplify, some are thinking that women prefer a more stable easygoing provider type for their regular partner, but with the urge to go play with an alpha when they are most likely to conceive. Some theorize that women are driven to conceive outside the stable relationship to: 1) ensure good genes for the child (bad news to us nerds, but alphas - symmetrical - types really are genetically superior from a physical and health standpoint) and 2) maintain resource support from the more stable nice guy for raising the kid, since the alpha is poorly suited to a long-term relationship.

Who knows why it\'s built in, but it appears to be. Nice guys, you are destined to raise the illegitimate children of bad boys (because you will!), and alphas are destined to spread their seed widely (because they can!).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

that\'s really sad
what if you are a combination of both?

[Whitehall]

Irish,

Women will generally do what is best for their current and prospective children - and that can change with the circumstances and the environment. Since their children are their genetic legacy, mothers will balance risks and rewards in placing their bet on which strategy will win.

In agrian ecosystems, women will generally prefer a monogamous relationship since a single mother will usually need the father/mother team to ensure the children\'s success. In nomadic ecosystems, dominant males may have more than one wife but jealously guard them from the large numbers of left-over, unmated males.

In industrialized societies, monogamy has also been the rule until recently. Now some political groups are pushing government subsidies to single mothers (such as subsidized childcare) so that full-time fathers may become less necessary. Where this is prevalent, as in the old US \"Aid to Families with Dependent Children\" program, alpha males became more flamboyant in their competition (think \"Pimp Style\"), loser males slipped into drug dependancies and crime while Uncle Sam picked up the bills for the \"Welfare Queens\'\" offspring. What a deal!

Women also have some non-conscious control on the gender of the child. Having males is riskier but potentially more rewarding genetically than having a female child who might deliver 3 or 4 fertile children into the next generation. A male child can have unlimited reproductive opportunities. That\'s why China\'s policy of one child per couple will cause couples to actively prefer male children; a single female child will reduce one\'s genetic legacy by one half with future dilutions likely while a male child has much more genetic upside potential.

During periods or under circumstances when a single mother could not successfully raise children by herself AND an average male partner could make it possible, THEN mongamy was preferred. Think \'50s America.

When a female could support her brood without a male partner, than she would seek an alpha male for a sperm donation in hopes that her children would have the best genes. Think Murphy Brown and other well-to-do feminists and/or welfare queens.

Of course, as you point out, a possible good deal for a woman is to have a dedicated male partner to provide resources and an alpha male to provide sperm - so long as she doesn\'t get caught. That\'s why men have to be jealous (or at least attentive) of the women they agree to support. It also explains why a husband\'s infidelities are less serious than a wife\'s - she doesn\'t want to have to share resources with another woman\'s children; he doesn\'t want to get snookered into supporting another man\'s offspring while giving up a chance for his own progeny. The latter is much more serious, at least in times of plenty.

[Irish]

Yeah, the \'good genes\' theory of cuckholding the stable partner to obtain alhpa genes for her offspring is risky for the woman, as far as losing the stable resource provider. I\'ve read other theories about why women may be driven to cuckhold the stable provider for an alpha - I\'m not really leaning toward any of these but here\'s some ideas from David Buss:

resource accrual - she may get \'gifts\' from an alpha lover
mate expulsion/switching - a way to deliberately ditch a boring nice guy when she\'s ready
fertility backup - in case stable partner has deficient fertility
status enhancement - temporary liaison may improve status if alpha has status
honing mating skills - increase her skills at attraction and seduction by seeking an alpha
self esteem improvement - self explanatory
mate assessment/preference clarification - gives her comparisons among lovers
sexual gratification - obvious

Whether any of these is right I dunno, but it does seem from my reading that women have a full range of desires, from nurturing types to bad-boy sperm donors. And they want each type to answer a different need, and at an appropriate time in their reproductive cycle. Not surprising really - don\'t many men really want June Cleaver in the kitchen and a sex-crazed supermodel in the sack? Know many girls that embody both?

[Irish]

JPGR -
I think there\'s a spectrum of these qualities, and each man falls out somewhere on the continuum - no really 100% alphas or \'nice guys\'. But the traits of interest seem to be pretty much mutually exclusive to me…how can you be dominant and submissive at the same time, or caring and self-centered, or friendly and hostile, etc. Granted, perhaps we are complex enough to show contrary traits in different situations, but I\'m not so sure. Sounds like wishful thinking to me - I think our personalities are pretty set by adulthood and we are pretty consistent in the way we react to things.

Anyway, from the physical characteristics standpoint, it\'s cut and dried. You can measure symmetry and facial testosterone markers, and you have an answer about how alpha you are. These characteristics are well correlated with behavior and perceived handsomeness by several studies. Scientists can measure how much of an \'alpha\' you are. And many on this forum know about the study that also correlated the body scent of symmetric alphas with attractiveness to women - women prefer the scent of symmetrical men (yet again, only when they were at peak fertility - women on the pill did not show this preference).

I guess I\'m convinced that there are true alphas - and women prefer them for short-term sex, and when they are most fertile. But these alphas make poor long-term mates and women know that too. I guess if a nice guy could snag his dreamwife, and convincingly role-play an alpha when she wanted that, he might have a better chance of keeping her at home when her eye started to wander …

[Watcher]

Henceforth the additon now of DNA testing women are easily caught out and the man can legally divorce and take all his assets if the child is illegimate (legal system is helpful in some ways) and if one wants to be absoulutley certain of offspring go to an androgology lab (someone mention androgens again) although these are the technical name for the sperm bank - i like the link however. Do the good guys get sex however it would be in the womans interest to still have sex with the non high alpha type simply because otherwise she has to waste all that effort trying to find another provider male for her children. However some men (betas) in technical terms are very weary of leaving a relationship. I guess the balance has had to be sort because the trade off with the alphas is sperm donation but the high sex drive also means lack of faithfulness. But with cosmetic surgery and pheromones now that is all thrown off balance sort of decieving but in ones favour also. Really the greyest area i can think of all up but im still in favour of pheromone usage but take care in the workplace as complaints of BO can be embarrasing switch to social usage only if you are concerned but it can also be helpful care needs to be taken with amounts used.