Some firsthand field research from my females

[jamesdeanmartin]

Hey guys,

Had a long talk about guys with three of my fairly close female friends today over lunch. I\'d thought I\'d share some of the things they told me, it was somewhat fascinating. None of these girls are targets (and they all have boyfriends) so i think they were being fairly honest.

Here\'s what I\'ve learned:

(1) Women label men (supporting my previous ideas about this). What is scary is that women label men at an alarmingly quick rate, within the first minute of meeting them.
Their labels are 99% based on your looks. It takes an overwhelming personality and charm to overcome an unkempt appearance. (So in general, you are already labeled long before you even have the opportunity to really talk to a girl, thus somewhat negating the whole \"I love his personality bs\")

Basically the labeling can be broken down into two categories:
attractive or not attractive. Each label then has different future consequences:

Attractive: Can lead to a number of different scenarios within a few meetings. If you are labeled attractive and she associates having a good time with you, then you will fit into one of two categories: (1) guy I\'d like to date (DATEABLE) (2) guy I\'d like to just do (DOABLE). If you are labeled as attractive but she does not associate positive times with you, she will quickly relegate you to the role of [censored], or conceited guy (if only to protect her own self-esteem). What becomes interesting I\'ve found is that the highest label you can achieve is \"dateable\" but all three women agreed that if they really liked a guy, they wouldn\'t sleep him right away, generally not for a month. Meanwhile the Doable Guy is getting some, but going nowhere longterm.

What some people miss is that friends can be labeled attractive and women may not make a move on them. Women often hold back their feelings, or are extremely sublte about their interest in guys. Just because you are friends with girls doesn\'t mean they think you are unattractive.

Not-attractive: This is the tricky one. Once you are labeled not-attractive you face an uphill battle. After numerous meetings you may become a (1) Friend or (2) Annoying guy who likes me and won\'t go away. (Sometimes these are hard to distinguish between).

It is incredibly hard to break out of this initial first impression. Some good ways to do this would be to go away for a while, go to college, go on a vacation and return so that women are judging you again for the \"first time.\" For guys, at least for me, I rarely noticed subtle changes among the girls I meet everyday. But when one comes back from three months away, I notice everything. That was another thing I learned, women notice EVERYTHING and then some. Be aware of this, our senses must be dulled or something.

What does this all mean for pheros? A lot actually. I\'ve had huge success when I\'m meeting beautiful women for the first time while wearing pheros. I think with pheros I ended up being ranked attractive right off the bat from a physiological response standpoint, before I even open my mouth. That is golden. But there are problems. If you do not make it into that category, or if the girl associates those pheromones with someone else, you be facing an uphill battle. I have close friends who I\'d love to date but don\'t seem interested in me, while much more attractive women I meet at parties and such cannot get enough of me. That\'s what made me look into this labeling behavior in the first place. I think women do it (and men to) in order to simply the cognitive processes. Instead of having to re-analyze everyone for sexual worthiness each time we see them, we form a label for them in our schema and keep it there until some evidence is presented to change that. It is much easier for the mind to say \"Todd is hot\" than to say \"Todd has blue eyes, he is tall thin, nice lips, et. al., so Todd must in fact be hot\" Unfortunately I think women in the end only remeber the labels they have on guys and not the requisite parts, but that\'s another discussion (most women can\'t say why a guy is hot, they just think he\'s hot, probably because they labeled him hot the first time they saw him, then haven\'t put forth a lot of cognitive processes in order to re-evaluate that label since then).

Ok I want to rap this up quick, but I have some little notes not related to labeling that could be of some service.

(1) If a woman is looking at your lips, she is almost invariably thinking about kissing you, this is a good thing :-)

(2) A woman is in control of her body at all times around a guy, everything she does is for a reason. Touch is critical. If she brushes her breast up against you, she did it for a reason. Let women make the first move on touch always, and let them set the pace.

(3) Women can be insanely jealous. This may be able to be used to your advantage, but it is risky and could turn into a nasty situation real quick.

(4) Women never tire of hearing sincere compliments. The key is to make them sincere however.

(5) Many women become Alpha-Females when hanging out in groups of guys. They want all the attention and protest fiercly when a new women enters the fray. Be aware of this. You may be able to use it to your advantage. Or you may have to deal with the catfights. Women love the attention of men, even guys they wouldn\'t label as dateable or doable. Once a girl learns that a guy likes her, she wants him to always like her (it\'s a cognitive process to protect your self-esteem). If Joey like you last week, but this week he likes Sarah, there must be something wrong with me. Even if the girl didn\'t like Joey, she may begin to flirt with Joey to retain her status as the girl he likes. This may sound evil, but its true.

(6) Allow women to talk. Ask them open-ended questions. Try your best not to talk about yourself. I know I have problems like this, whenever there is an ackward silence I just start rambling and then I figure out that I didn\'t learn too much about the girl. Women form bonds through communication. There is an internal construct of this, especially if a women is sharing deep secrets or personal experiences. Internally a women says, I must like this guy, because I\'m sharing so much with him.

Anyway, some crap I learned today, there\'s probably more that you are forgetting. If any of the ladies want to comment, please do so. I\'ve quite fascinated by the male-female dynamic (despite my own failings and shortcomings from time to time in that area :-)

JDM

[Xehupatl]

whoa dude this is gold! write a short e-book about it and sell it, you\'d be making good money [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

cheers

stefan

[sophie]

JDM, I think you must be quite a guy to have such good female friends. True, a lot of interesting and valuable insights.

[Whitehall]

Excellent insights, well expressed.

You never have a second chance to make a first impression!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i think you are very very right about the majority of girls. it\'s sad in a way but true. good job dude good luck.

[Irish]

Great post - esp. the quick labeling. It shouldn\'t surprise us though; men label women within 5 seconds! I mean, there\'s plenty of sixty-something women who are beautiful souls, but we aren\'t interested in them as women. What we\'re talking about here is the sexual marketplace, and it helps if you can separate that aspect of it from your basic value as a human, self-esteem, etc. It\'s a competition to mate, nothing more or less, as cold-blooded and mindless as the jungle. That\'s not to say there isn\'t deep commitment and bonds possible, but that\'s down the line. You have to walk through the door of sexual attraction to get there, or else be satisfied with the companionship of your friends.

Anyway, I agree with your observations - especially for young women. And it\'s true that women have the power, esp. initially, to approve or disapprove of us - so we must understand their rules to be very successful. But I would add to everything you mentioned one thing - it is possible to override their categorization and impose your own agenda sometimes, if you have guts and determination.

For instance, say you are stuck with the friend label and can\'t seem to get a different reaction from her. OK, you can accept her classification and live life as her buddy. Or you can give up completely, and blow her off or slink away. OR, you can try to shake up her little label system and apply a new set of labels to both of you - Hot Lovers That Belong Together for example. It\'s always worth a try if you\'re interested in more, but it does take some savvy.

You\'re already her friend, so use that to your advantage….probe her thoughts and get to really know her…make her dependent on your friendship…then suddenly withdraw parts of that from her. If she reacts, then there\'s hope, and you can continue the cycle until she becomes hooked on you - at that point she will use womanly charms to get back what you\'ve withdrawn, because she wants it badly and she knows her greatest power over a man is to act like a woman, not a friend. By then you are in a romantic relationship, not a friendship anymore.

To give and withdraw, to be available and absent, and other variations of on and off is the oldest tactic in the book, and really does work. Other things work too, like revealing contradictory sides if your personality to her that challenge her label of you. Anything that rocks her boat is a good start, and if you can get her to question her understanding of you then you\'ve at least got her interested and thinking about you. Keep it up long enough and the relationship will definitely change, usually for the better from your standpoint.

If she has a boyfriend, all the better. You have become her confidant, so you get to learn about all his faults. Then begin over time to subtly project the good points about yourself the boyfriend lacks. You don\'t even have to criticize the boyfriend (and you shouldn\'t directly) - by silent comparison and \'general\' observations that really apply to her situation you will begin to look great to her. She will begin to ask herself why she hadn\'t noticed before how you seem to understand and meet so many of her needs . And the reason is that previously you accepted her \'friend\' label and reluctantly played the role, and now you are quietly changing the psychology of the situation to apply labels of YOUR choosing.

This stuff takes real work and nerve, but if you\'re hot enough for her and getting nowhere why not give it a shot. You can always go back to living the friendship role she\'s defined for you if you fail to spark a romance.

I know these things work, cause I turned a long-term friendship into the most intense affair of my life, after I got sick of living in the \'friend cage\' she had locked me into. I didn\'t bitch and moan about be cast as a friend, I changed my behavior until she was forced to view me differently, and need what my new behavior gave her. I couldn\'t have done it if I didn\'t know her as well as I did. It wasn\'t easy to break out of her mold, but I\'ll always be glad I made the effort. If I would have had pheros then it may have been a lot easier!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

Women love the attention of men, even guys they wouldn\'t label as dateable or doable. Once a girl learns that a guy likes her, she wants him to always like her (it\'s a cognitive process to protect your self-esteem)

<hr></blockquote>
OMG! That right there hit home. It doesnt matter what you look like or where you stand with them but if the woman notices the change of attention from her to another woman...thats where the fun begins. lol

[SwingerMD]

Wow!

James certainly hit that on the mark. In fact this reminds me of a person that I was dating a year back, a young woman (early 20\'s) of Chinese descent. In fact she told me one time when we were out that she has a lot more guy friends that she has girl friends. And that whenever a guy goes out with her they think it\'s a date. Kinda confusing, eh?

Later I heard from the grapevine that she and her boyfriend at the time had a really major fight about her seeing a movie with a group of her guy friends. This is pretty much about the same time we went out for the first time. Somewhere between that and the second time we went out they got back together, which would probably explain why things went downhill for no apparent reason.

Anyhow one year later, and a exposure to a SOE and RM combo [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] , she seemed to be hinting that she wanted to go out with me again. She also seemed extra curious (perhaps jealous) on who I was asking out to a concert that I had tickets to.

So right now she is a work in progress for me. (Thankfully one of many).

[Watcher]

Great thoughts everyone, it is certainly going in the right direction, the labeling thing is a generalisation thing that people have. I just find it easier to at the moment concentrate upon myself as far as working out getting smarter etc. Although with me just as a personal story people get competitive around me male and female always has but being used as a prop is annoying. Im one of these background watchers, the only tactic i see now apart from pheros is the body, washboard stomach already and working on it, actually i picked up some modeling work yesterday which is very surprising actually the agency havent given me work in 2 years. Went to the casino had the DD#1 mix on and came away with quite a large win last night it just seems that everyone bets heaps more with me around the casino must love me he he.
There are numerouse tactics and those discussed above are quite useful for more info goto www.fastseduction.com or www.speedseduction.com for some really freaky weird and unusuall tactics. Some are [censored] some are quite useful.
Even as an unattractive \"label\" guy if you move youre attention around then you will still be able to have an impact and if all else fails just take the best looking women and talk thier head off acting like the biggest dickhead you can (skateboarder boys) and youll keep her attention from the \"attractive\" guys.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

<font color=blue>There are numerouse tactics and those discussed above are quite useful for more info goto www.fastseduction.com or www.speedseduction.com for some really freaky weird and unusuall tactics.</font color=blue>

<hr></blockquote>
OMG! I feel like I\'ve stumbled upon the Holy Grail of 21st Century. Man...you rule! Thx

[Naughtymonkey]

This is pretty much in line with an article in the UK press a few days back concerning the difference between male and female recruiters, with 3/10 men judging male interviewees on their looks but apparently 7/10 women judging women interviewees on their looks.

JMD, valuable insights but I was wondering whether the three females you spoke to were friends themselves. Its possible, and we all do it, that they have come to a collective agreement about things and what would be really interesting is if we can replicate similar insights in different groups/countries.

I for one would like to keep this thread going as I find this sort of thing incredibly interesting - please people share your insights, especially that most valuable forum members, our women!!!!

NM

[Whitehall]

One of the arguments AGAINST women\'s sufferage (ie giving the vote to women) has been that women tend to vote for the pretty face. That\'s the major reason John F. Kennedy and Bill Clinton were elected - according to this view.

Looks like there is some solid research now to back this up.

[CptKipling]

Irish: completly agree, often find myself doing those things subconsiously anyway!

Makes me worry a bit about male friends of girl friends, but personally i think that the boyfriend looks down upon the situation from a very usefull vantagepoint, if you play it right that is. It also helps if you can meet her friends, as this often quels any thoughts of snatching your girl.

But if you are not making her happy, then you cant be getting the most out of the relationship yourself.

[jamesdeanmartin]

\"men and women cannot be friends, sex gets in the way\"

-Billy Crystal, When Harry Met Sally

This is something I think about a lot lately. My best friend in the world is a woman, but I also have a rather large crush on her from time to time, and would love to sleep with her. Most of my other female friends I\'d sleep with if the situation arose.
I wonder what they think?

You see, I think for men there are just two categories, FUCKABLE vs. NOT FUCKABLE.

I\'ve got a lot of stuff going on with this which hopefully I will put into words sometime soon. I love picking the brains of my female friends.

JDM

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, it has been said, and I believe it, that \"Men don\'t have plutonic relationships with women. They just have women they haven\'t fuc*ed yet!\".

Can I get an amen?

[SwingerMD]

Amen brotha!

[franki]

LOL ....

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Watcher]

This site is the holy grail of everything,
So women label guys this way
DATEABLE,DOABLE AND FRIENDS

Men label women this way
FUCKABLE AND NOT FUCKABLE
Thats what has come from this thread lol and to have some as friends because it allows exposure to more friends etc etc.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

one of my best friends is pretty hot, a lot of guys like her but i just don\'t like her that way cuz i just don\'t...and i know enough about her in a friends way that even if she came on to me i\'d probably refuse...she has, i\'ve refused...
i definitely think that men and women can be friends and only that...i mean do you ever think about sleeping with your sister or cousin? or i mean do you want to? but definitely, with casual friends that i\'m not SO close to i think about whether i\'d have sex with them, yeah.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\"i mean do you ever think about sleeping with your sister or cousin? \"

I dunno about sisters... but some people do bang their cousins.

[franki]

I have had fantasies about sleeping with my cousin, I don´t think it is unnatural to fantazise about such things. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Franki [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Andy]

Cousins aren\'t first grade relatives .. so it\'s ok ... Well, I hope so, because I banged mine in the mid teens [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Track0714]

never did my cousin, but when we were teens, i\'d let her drive and ride my motorbike. She\'d let me play with her boobs and crouch, if she was driving. If i was driving. she\'d play with my tool.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Same here. I never banged mine but I do know what her \'kitty\' tastes like. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That is an exemption to the rule. Sisters and cousins are family, which is not quite the same thing as being a plutonic friend.

[Andy]

It might be strange, but I think somehow almost every male friend I know is somehow attracted to his cousin. Because they are 2nd grade family members there is no problem at all.

I never had a platonic friend of the opposit sex for a long time, well at least it didn\'t stay platonic for long. Some people would say it destroys a friendship but I think it brought us closer together. Well ok, except of one instance, where it messed things up, so a little risk is always there. But I am sliding too far ot.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

In high school I knew a guy who wanted to screw his half sister (his half sister was my archnemesis for awhile but that\'s a whole nother story). And I knew another guy who got a BJ from his cousin at her house. His cousin was kind of slutty (that\'s another long story) I think he admitted screwing her. It was a very weird story but he told it with glee in his eye. I remember my classmates and me just staring at him as he told us about it. His male cousin (who went to school with us) backed the story up. Now the key to all this is these three guy were all friends. I guess birds of a feather and all that.

[Watcher]

Heck ive banned my imagination to a large extent it just goes off without permission bla bla and that goes for my fantasies to to much trouble and irrlevant thougths.

[Andy]

Wanna become a vulcan Watcher ? [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

I think our fantasies play an essential role in our lives, they pushing us forward. Imagine, there\'s a nice good shaped girl in front of you, what would you do ? Would you start to calculate the potential risks and benefits of a partnership/sexual encounter with her, or would you just follow your imagination and fantasies how exciting it would be to give it a try ?

Be visionary, be imaginative [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Holy Geez Louise! You guys were attracted to you cousins too? It is almost without fail that every guy I know (myself included) has a super-hottie cousin or two or three! But just remember what Ross in \"Friends\" said; he was talking to his HOTTIE cousin and having \"feelings\" about her, and he replies to something she said by jokingly saying \"Well, I\'m a little slow..\" then quietly admonishes himself saying to himself \"Just as our children would be.\" LYAO but it\'s true [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

\'Slinger out.