hi, i wanted to share something with those not getting good results with pi or jb#1 or any of the other heavy hitters: try the PPA from stone labs...it has a slight slight smell but the none content is relatively low but very effective ( twice the mones that are in say realm or apc )...you will still have on more mones that the average human being could ever produce and you may be like i used to be and tend to od, but i found with ppa i would get decent hits and the od ratio was very very low due to lower none content and almost no smell..a good product without having to invest alot of cash...once you start getting some hits with that...and you see for yourslef mones work, then move up to the harder stuff.. Little successes can build confidence and help you see where you need to go..just a thought..