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  1. #1
    Phero Dude
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    Default Athena 10x analysis

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    How about an Athena 10X analysis?

    It seems the only way to do this is by direct injection mass spectrometry.

    I have found a company that will do this, but it appears it will cost some money... anyone want to chip in?

    Who wants to participate? Bruce? Stone Labs? JVK? All you guys?

    It would not be illegal to figure out what\'s in it and even sell a duplicate unless and until their patent issues (which could be never).

    I\'m damn curious about what\'s in it.

  2. #2
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    It would cost a LOT of money! I\'ll check with Phil to make sure, but my understanding is that you have to run each test separately. Say for example you wanted to find out how much aNONE was really in PI, OK, that is one expensive test that we could pitch in on and we would find out how much NONE was in there, but if we didn\'t have a clue what was in there. Next we might run a test to see how much aNOL was in there and we would find out zero. Hmmm... OK next let\'s see how much aRONE is there... again zero, OK... lets check for DHEA... again zero... The process could go on and on until you were satisfied you had the entire list of active ingredients. That\'s the feeling I got. Back when I first started doing business with LaCroy they invited me to send anything over for testing and they always asked me \"what are we checking for?\" I\'d tell them and they would tell me how much was in there. PI was OVER the promised 5 mg, by the way. In fact, if you hae a sample of Athena, I can probably find out how much if any aNONE is in there for free, but after that... ???

    Bruce

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    That\'s true for other types of analysis, but mass spectrometry lets you measure it all at once.

    GCMS would be used, assuming that spectra for the likely candidates are present.

    The charge I was quoted was $500.

    I have sent a list of some of the possible steroids which could be present in the product, and the analysis company is currently checking to verify whether they have spectra for those and other related compounds.

    If so, we can get a result in one shot and know once and for all what\'s in the stuff.

    [ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: xvs ]

  4. #4
    Phero Dude
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    Bruce? What do you say?

  5. #5
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    About what? :0)

    Bruce

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    Carpal Tunnel Whitehall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    My advice to Bruce is \"Don\'t get involved.\"

    Dissing another company\'s product directly and publicly could lead to all sorts of commercial bickering and name-calling or worst, lawsuits.

    If would be OK if we customers did our own research and freely posted the results on this forum.

    My opinion is, why bother? Given the field reports from users, I see no compelling reason to even consider Athena-X at any price point. It just doesn\'t seem to deliver the hits as strongly or as consistently as the products Bruce handles.

    Sure, I\'m curious too - but not $500 curious.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    I don\'t know about the \'field reports from users\' but I\'ve gotten much better responses from 10x than any of the other products I\'ve tried (and that\'s a lot). I got less (or no) DIHLs but actually a lot more ahem... activity where it counts shall we say.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    xvs, as a lab nrrd I can tell you a couple of things about GC analysis. First, MS will give you a fingerprint of what is in the mix, ie which compounds. But it does not have very high analytical precision. The FID detector has extremely high precision, but no accuracy. It burns things up and measures the amount of current going through the flame. Extremely precise in the matter of how much is burning, but you cannot say anything more (if two things come out at once, bigger peak.) So the combination of the two is required to get anything of note. And lastly, being one who had to prove things, it is not easy to get a method that will separate compounds that are very similar in chemical nature. I am sure that someone has done it, but they might not want to tell everyone how they did it...

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    So are you saying that the result wouldn\'t give a list of what compounds are in it?

    I thought it was just a question of whether the spectra were available. If so, you compare and know what\'s in it. If not, you\'re out of luck unless you have a sample of each possible thing as a reference. No?

  10. #10
    Carpal Tunnel Whitehall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    XVS,

    Your report on your Athena experiences is a bit surprising. I\'ve never used it but it generally has not had good reviews.

    Perhaps you could tell us more?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    xvs, I think W. Mitty is saying that it the first test will tell you what is in there, but not accurately how much. The second one can tell you accurately how much stuff is in there, but not of what compound.

    Correct WM?

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    Athena works very well for me. too. Well enough that I haven\'t bothered to try any of the other pheromone products I\'ve read about on this board. Some people diss it because of the higher cost, yet for me a bottle mixed in with a small amount of cologne lasts over a year. Some people think they\'re getting too little of a certain type of pheromone with Athena, yet they have no clue whatsoever what\'s inside of it. And, as I said before, that little bottle can last over a year. Some people may have tried it and given up too quickly, yet it takes up to six weeks to begin showing effects. It took four weeks for me.

  13. #13
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    hd,

    What changes did you notice after 4 weeks? This \"up to six weeks\" time frame for Athena products has always intrigued me, since I have never seen anything (scientific or anecdotal) that would indicate the effect of pheromones would take more than about 15 minutes to manifest itself.

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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    James,

    I was dining in a college cafeteria every day and the way the women acted toward me changed all of a sudden. When they came by, I would always try to say hi, and I could tell from the way they reacted that they were being affected by the pheromones. I invited one to sit at my table after she mentioned her boyfriend was away. She said she had to sit with her group, then turned around and said \"I\'d love to\". She had never sat at that table before. A friend at the table who was always very smooth with the ladies whispered a comment to me and I knew he was impressed. He wanted to know my secret. I never use much of the mix, since I have a sensitive sense of smell. Maybe I\'m using too little, especially since I\'m almost 48. Athena doesn\'t say anything about using more if you\'re older, I\'ve just read it here many times. Maybe that\'s one reason it took a while to work?

    I believe Athena\'s position is that it\'s your body that creates the pheromones - with the help of the product - and it may take four to six weeks of applying the product for the body chemistry to do it\'s thing.

    It\'s always surprised me how many people on this board say they get immediate results. But then again, whenever someone says he or she didn\'t get any results, I always think maybe it just needs more time, like Athena recommends. Or maybe the lack of results is due to the unscientific way people seem to do things, experimenting with different mixes and amounts. Athena is very specific about how to apply the pheromones.

  15. #15
    Phero Dude
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    I haven\'t seen Athena saying your body creates the pheromones, but they do imply it by saying you should wear 10x at least 4 times a week I think.

    Perhaps it is just DHEA which breaks down into other pheromones?

    Anyway, back to analysis, I think it would be great to know what it\'s made of. The concentration is easy to determine once that\'s known.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    Could it be that when exposed to say -none, some chemical or hormonal response causes our own body to produce more of it naturally? As in we have detected another alpha-male and we need to try and assert ourselves? That the formula is too weak to be effective straight away without being boosted by our own pheromones? Or some other chemical reaction that improves pheromone effectiveness over use? Maybe a build up of pheromones on clothes, skin, etc?

    Or could it just be the age old repeated exposure improves results with individuals who already know you. That the women in the cafeteria already had formed an initial opinion about you as a person and it\'s taken repeated exposure to the pheromone product to break down that mental wall. After all, they do say first impressions stick, so previous encounters and experience I guess play a part. That if the formula isn\'t very strong, it could take weeks of repeated exposure to have the desired effect as the subconscious effects of the pheromones would only be mild. Or maybe the first time, they are a bit shy or confused and aren\'t sure cus it\'s the first time they\'ve seen you in this new light, but after a while of repeated postive subconscious effects, they realise it\'s not a one-off and decide to be more interactive with you? Afterall, us humans have willpower and to some degree must be able to resist or playdown the subconscious urge/nudge that pheromones cause. Maybe circumstances play a part in whether certain individuals are more susceptible to the subconscious effects of pheromones. Maybe they are single, or missing their partner who is away, or maybe it\'s the right time of month.

    Or could it be that because you know you are wearing it, over time it subconsciously makes you more sociable and confident which others pick up on and again more likely to interact with you? After all, if you are going to test a pheromone product, you could be more likely to initiate something just to see their reaction to it. Maybe it\'s a combination of some, none or all of the above. Like a snowball effect. You use pheromones, get a few hits, which makes you more sociable and confident, which on it\'s own gets you more interest/hits and allows you to be in more situations where pheromones can get you more hits, which makes you more sociable and confident and so on.

    [ May 04, 2002: Message edited by: Teak ]

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    jvk...i totally agree with you about the absurd idea that it takes exposure of \"4-6\" weeks for the pheromones to take affect...your Scent of Eros is awesome stuff, and it works \"within about 15 seconds\" literally...if it took 4-6 weeks at over 90 bucks a pop, i dont think i would mess with it!! i think i will stick with Bruces stuff as i can be very impatient and dont have \"4-6\" weeks to linger around an area hoping someone will respond and adapt to the smell...if thats the role pheromones have played in our primitave past, i doubt anyone would have hung around long enough to have been attracted and reproduced..

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    jvk...i totally agree with you about the absurd idea that it takes exposure of \"4-6\" weeks for the pheromones to take affect...your Scent of Eros is awesome stuff, and it works \"within about 15 seconds\" literally...if it took 4-6 weeks at over 90 bucks a pop, i dont think i would mess with it!! i think i will stick with Bruces stuff as i can be very impatient and dont have \"4-6\" weeks to linger around an area hoping someone will respond and adapt to the smell...if thats the role pheromones have played in our primitave past, i doubt anyone would have hung around long enough to have been attracted and reproduced..

  19. #19
    Phero Dude
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    My experience with 10x is that it tended to work mainly on new people I hadn\'t met before and to a much lesser extent if at all on people I already knew.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    xvs,

    The Athena 10x insert says \"Use 10x daily or at least every other day.\"

    Regarding your comment that \"it tended to work mainly on new people I hadn\'t met before and to a much lesser extent if at all on people I already knew\", I had exchanged a few emails with the Vice President of Athena last summer and he had this to say: \"It seems the pheromonal effect on women can be cumulative on women with whom you have social interactions.\"

    He also said \"Your point about 4 weeks to see effects is not unusual.\"

    spiderwesbter,

    The Athena insert says \"Some men report observing its effects after three days while others report results after 4-6 weeks of use.\" Like I said before, maybe my age had somehting to do with it\'s taking four weeks to show effects.

  21. #21
    PheroWizard oscar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    Gents,

    The 4-6 weeks issue with Athena would lead me to believe that the pheromones that are working for the long time user ARE his own, increased in volume perhaps by metabolizing DHEA or DHEA sulphate that had been absorbed through the skin over that (WAY TOO LONG) waiting period.
    The need to maintain a dosing schedule would reinforce this.

    Seems like the long way around to me! And a hell of a lot more expensive than simply taking DHEA supplements, which are dirt cheap by comparison! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    Oscar [img]images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    Hmm... So taking DHEA supplements might be an alternative to applying pheromones?!

  23. #23
    PheroWizard oscar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    truth,

    I don\'t see why not. DHEA is a precursor to Testosterone (among other things) which is a precursor to the androgens that we\'re buying the synthetic versions of. Right?..or Wrong?

    Hell, not only cheaper than Athena, but probably QUICKER too!

    Oscar [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    I wanted to know what DHEA was used for as a dietary supplement, so I went to GNC.com and did a search for DHEA. I\'m posting a link to what I found. The article said that when DHEA Sulfate is introduced into the bloodstream, it results in increased levels of testosterone and androstenedieone. Take a look everyone!
    http://gnc.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmHigh.exe?HIWORD=DHEA+DHEAS+&PRE=%3CFONT+STYLE%3 D%22background%3A%23ffff00%22%3E&POST=%3C%2FFONT%3 E&LANGID=EN&ENCODEID=035&URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww %2Egnc%2Ecom%2Fhealth_notes%2FSupp%2FDHEA%2Ehtm#

  25. #25
    Phero Dude
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    You don\'t want to go taking megadoses of DHEA. It could be extremely dangerous.

    High doses of DHEA can produce undesired effects, such as acne, facial hair on women, irritability, anxiety, headaches and sleeplessness. Moreover, it can trigger heart palpitations, irregular heartbeats and even heart attack.

    One advocate of DHEA, Dr. Ray Sahelian, warns against high doses (25-50mg daily). His advice is to take no more than 10mg a day and avoid it altogether for at least one or two weeks a month.

    DHEA has been theorized to potentiate prostate cancer in those with a predisposition.

    Animal studies show that high doses of DHEA cause elevated liver enzymes and other abnormalities. No long-term studies have been done on humans to determine exactly what is a safe long-term dosage.

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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif\">quote:</font><HR>
    Because body chemistries vary, Athena Pheromone 10X is not guaranteed to work for every man; it should work for most. Some men notice results within a few days; others may need up to 6 weeks for full effect.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Exactly what are they infering from \"Because body chemistries vary\"? Does this imply Athena 10x has a chemical effect on/inside the human body? Surely normal pheromone products aren\'t dependent on factors such as \"body chemistries\". Maybe like Wilde Oscar said it could be DHEA or some other chemical/hormone that increases our own pheromone production. If so, I wonder if Athena 10x is what the makers of Attractant 1000+ refer to as a \"high-tech product designed to program the user\'s mind/brain to increase the secretion of his/her own pheromone level\".

    Can anyone find a quote where the Athena Institute state Athena 10x _contains_ any synthesized human pheromones? If not, then maybe it doesn\'t and their apporach is more of work from the inside out, rather than from the outside.

    [ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: Teak ]

  27. #27
    Carpal Tunnel Whitehall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    DHEA - when I first started taking DHEA at about 25 mg a day, I noticed that my own scent started to change too. This was BEFORE I followed pheromone science or bought any products. That makes sense since DHEA is a precursor to the sex hormones and sex hormones are precursors to pheromones.

    I\'ve got a separate thread going where I try a mix of DHEA in Smirnoff\'s as a spray. If Athena is in that small a bottle, transdermal absorption is probably out unless she found something much more potent than DHEA that had systemic effects.

    Maybe a new exogenous bacteria to \"salt\" your skin?

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    Default Re: Athena 10x analysis

    Teak,

    You asked \"Can anyone find a quote where the Athena Institute state Athena 10x contains any synthesized human pheromones?\"

    The package insert which comes with an order of Atnhena 10x for men states: \"10x contains synthesized human male pheromones that are a chemical copy of the natural pheromones produced by the body of a sexually active male in his mid-twenties, and SD 40 alcohol in a patent pending, trade-secret formula.\"

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