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  1. #1
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    Default unconscious effects?

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    Anybody have evidence that none-nol-rone can be processed by the olfactory system and affect the brain/body WITHOUT being consciously perceived as an odor?? Cause if it must be consciously perceived we are wasting our time covering it with cologne…

  2. #2
    **DONOTDELETE**
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    Default Re: unconscious effects?

    Good question,

    All I can really say is that from personal experience, they seem better appreciated with \"cologne\" cover. I have found strange \"confused\" looks, especially with NPA, without. The trouble is, IMHO, that if they are percieved as an odour, and it is a concious phenomena, then it\'s not a \"phero\". A pheromone should cause a phsyiological effect without perception by the recipient. Then again, this is a hotbed of contention amongst the phero clan, since some consider a conditioned response to an exuded odour to be a pheromonal phenomena.

    I am not of this persuasion, I think it must act at a subconcious level, must be an autonomic response to be considered a pheromone.

  3. #3
    **DONOTDELETE**
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    Default Re: unconscious effects?

    Conditioned responses don\'t need to be conscious.

  4. #4
    Carpal Tunnel Whitehall's Avatar
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    Default Re: unconscious effects?

    What you DON\'T want is your target going \"I smell something...\"

    Therefore, you\'re stiving for a direct effect beneath conscious perception.

    It is OK if she suddenly says \"God, I\'m horny. Come here you sexy thing.\"

  5. #5
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    Default Re: unconscious effects?

    Since pheros are naturally present in more or less subconsciously perceived levels, I think the whole reason for using a cologne cover is so that you can crank up the volume on the pheros into the conscious range while providing enough of a mask to keep them from registering.

    To build on Whitehall\'s statement, you don\'t care if they smell something consciously--you just don\'t want them to consciously smell pheros, that\'s all.

  6. #6
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Default Re: unconscious effects?

    Good answers/comments gentlemen. I will add that Irish need not be too concerned about conscious versus unconscious perception, which is merely a matter of olfactory thresholds that vary with hormone status and many other factors. It is not something that can readily be predicted. However, there are enough studies to show that the typical cutoff between conscious and unconscious perception is 1 mg/ml of androstenone / androsterone / androstenol. The amount of these chemicals that is used in any particular product is best left to perfumers (e.g., Phil Stone)--or extremely competent Pherodude mixers. In any case, pheromone science is not exact; too many variables. The best we can hope for is a positive affect in the majority, and hope the majority is large (as in 90-95% of females with SoE).

  7. #7
    Carpal Tunnel Whitehall's Avatar
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    Default Re: unconscious effects?

    I would take exception to JVK\'s assertion that we want to have a favorable impression in 95% of the women we meet. Frankly, I\'m never going to close on 95% of the women I meet, let alone service them if I did.

    I\'ve started a thread a few months back that laid (bad pun) out a more effective strategy. If your goal is really to have sex with a fertile woman, you should target those women who are most receptive and most likely to have sex, ie those who are ovulating or close to ovulating.

    These women are most responsive to none and most likely to take a new lover based on impulse. In the universe of women, delete the post-menopausal and those younger than 18 or 21 or whatever your cutoff is. Of the balance, one in seven is in the four day window around ovulation - a 28 day cycle and you get 1 in 7.

    Therefore, I advocate using relative higher levels of none to get these women\'s attention. You do have to endure higher chances of negative responses from women who are not ovulating so there is a cost.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: unconscious effects?

    I understand the above posts - I\'m still stuck on my question. Must none-nol-rone be consciously perceived as an odor to have an effect? I think not, based on observation, but I\'d just like to hear from someone more knowledgeable than myself that that is right. I seem to remember JVK saying rone had an effect on some women who couldn\'t even detect an odor at all - that\'s what I\'m talking about. Is the same true for nol and none? I think the olfactory system is wired into conscious and subconscious areas of the brain, but I don\'t know that.

    Here\'s the reason I ask. If they must be consciously perceived to work then we should use very small doses, barely enough to be detected and not enough to be objectionable, and no masking. Using a heavy dose of pheros and masking the conscious odor with cologne is pointless if the odor must be consciously perceived to have an effect. Masking big phero doses only makes sense if the target is unconsciously receiving and processing the pheros, even though the actual odor is masked under cologne.

    JVK told us rone can work that way - having an effect apart from any conscious odor detection. Can someone verify that for nol and none?

  9. #9
    **DONOTDELETE**
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    Default Re: unconscious effects?

    Irish

    The way I look at it is:- You have the phero(key) and the receptors in the nose(locks), now IMHO, as long as the key fits the lock the receptor will be triggered, covering with cologne does not stop the key getting to the lock. Now as for concious perception, I would give consideration as to how \"smelly\" the phero is. Since, as far as I understand it you need to get enough phero to the receptors to trigger a response. In the case of odourants, this is called detecting a smell. In the case of the VNO, which is not considered receptive to none,nol,rone, the lock is very specific, and triggered by a very small amount of phero, less than is likely to be perceived.

    With none,nol,rone therefore, I would consider that if you cover the phero with cologne you can trigger the odour receptors without the phero odour being conciously perceived. Therefore I think it is all down the the mode of action of ones putative phero, and the necessity to get enough of it up the targets detecting apparatus.

  10. #10
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Default Re: unconscious effects?

    Whitehall wrote:
    I would take exception to JVK\'s assertion that we want to have a favorable impression in 95% of the women we meet. Frankly, I\'m never going to close on 95% of the women I meet, let alone service them if I did.
    --------
    A favorable impression does not equate with sex in my book. So, why not go for the favorable (e.g., pleasant) affect of pheromones on as many women as possible.

    Irish,
    Michael Kirk-Smith did some early work with -none, in amounts not consciously detectable, yet effect like territorial spacing were noted, and attraction of women to the androstenone treated chairs/programs.

    Chuck Wysocki found that people respond to -none, whether or not they detect it (skin conductance changes et al.) and also that with exposure over a period of several weeks, sensitivity to consciously perceived androstenone can be acheived-an interesting effect where a social-environmental stimulus can activate genes that code for receptors for the stimulus.

    I can\'t recall any similar reports for -ol, but that may only be due to natural abilities to detect it in very small quantities--and the overwhelming presence of musky odors like -ol in our everyday environment.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: unconscious effects?

    Thanks all. I always use cologne cover, and am very sensitive about smelling bad in public, so as you can imagine I stress about getting the right phero-cologne mix. And it dawned on me that I am deliberately trying to keep my targets from consciously detecting the phero smell…so I damn sure want to know that pheros still have an effect without conscious detection as an odor. Otherwise I would be deliberately making myself stink and covering it with cologne - not smart unless the overwhelmed-stink is still quietly working unconsciously.

    My \'in the field\' observations definitely convince me that pheros work when heavily masked by cologne - I just wanted to hear from some experts that that was physiologically possible (don\'t want to delude myself based on barroom observations only!). Thanks for the scientific insight.

    Looking back I think I\'ve gotten the most consistent hits with nol-heavy mixes with cologne. Although nol smells stale and repulsive to me, I have several times been told by women \'you smell good!\'. Well, I\'m glad they like it. Nol also seems to work great at a distance - women really pick up on it and react positively in obvious ways. Can anyone recommend a cologne that blends well with nol, and freshens it up a little? I really don\'t like the musky smells, they just seem to clash with my body chemistry/personality.

    JVK\'s discussions in the past about rone impressed me, cause he had tested the stuff systematically and noted results about whether the conscious smell was repellent (a big issue for me). He also reported results even when women could not detect an odor - exactly what I\'m going for when I mask the phero smell. I have used rone consistently with nol and none, but have never tried it by itself.

    Being forewarned about none\'s reputation as foulsmelling, I\'ve always been conservative with it\'s use. But the two occasions where I really od\'d with it I had MONSTER hits. None is a real quandary for me, cause I personally know it works in heavy doses, and I also know it stinks to high heaven in concentration and I have to cover that damn smell

  12. #12
    Carpal Tunnel Whitehall's Avatar
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    Default Re: unconscious effects?

    JVK,

    Allow me to restate my point.

    One goal is to smell nice to 95% of women. The other goal is to get sexually attract horny women. One can optimize for one but not both.

    For the former goal, one might try SoE or another nol/rone product; for the latter, heavy none. With the heavy none approach, one will get negative reactions from women that would be unlikely to be interested in sex in any case. Can\'t make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

    I wouldn\'t go to a PTA meeting with heavy \'none but SoE works just fine in such a situation.

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