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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

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    Don\'t worry Franki...our and all the other users who have had hits in clubs ARE!!! real hits....\'nuff said.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    OK, I\'m here\'s my viewpoint. I\'m a scientist, no doubt, like many others here. Isolated \"hits\" don\'t mean anything to me. This happens with and without pheromones. Moreover, female interaction can be improved in many ways besides getting hits. My only question is whether pheromones improve our interaction with females in a subtle or pronounced way.

    Regardless of James Kohl\'s criticisms, Winifred\'s Cutler\'s study is a step in the right direction. From what I understand, the study had subjects record a two week baseline on all types of interactions with members of the opposite sex (formal and informal dates, sex, conversation, etc.). Then one group received a placebo, and another group the phero product. Based on subsequent logs regarding interactions with members of the opposite sex, it can be statistically determined whether significantly more subjects in the phero group reported improved interactions on some dimensions. The improvement could be insignificant, small but stastically significant, or overwhelming.

    Unfortunately, I can\'t do a blinded study with other people, so I just observe whether there\'s an overall improvement over baseline using an n of 1. If the improvement is subtle but real, I may never be convinced. There are many other factors like my mood, etc., that can affect my interactions with women.

    I also do rely somewhat on forum feedback as, though I know it gives a biased perspective. The fact that people are reporting differences between products is actually more convincing evidence to me than the number of hits. If it were all placebo, I wouldn\'t have expected such different responses between products. Something is going on here...

    The minimalist perspective makes sense to me, but the idea also worries me in some ways. Perhaps, pheros don\'t improve anything, but they may repel at high doses. Maybe, long-time phero users see improvements in female interactions when the dosage is lowered because the pheros don\'t repel as much. They would have seen the improvement if they had gone off the pheros all together! Reverse baseline!

    Worse case scenario: Phero results are a balance between positive effects from placebo and negative effects from the phero smell. Minimalist manifesto brings the positive balance in your favor. =).

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    Marz, thank you.

    Truth, interesting post.

    Do you expect a lot of us phero users to be/get in that worst case scenario?

    Personally I don´t think we have to worry about this scenario to much because the effects of mones are too obvious. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    [ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Franki ]

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    Jim:
    It still sounds to me as if you judge the effectiveness of the pheros by whether or not they make the woman make the first move. If that\'s so, then you may be missing a lot of what the stuff can do, IMO. My short experience with them is that having them on improves interactions by a few degrees. A woman that might have liked you really likes you; one who would have been lukewarm pays closer attention. And it\'s not bullet-proof. If you make a faux pas wearing pheros, people will still be insulted. While I\'m certain that some people manage to get their pheros under the nose of someone who\'s primed to be very receptive, resulting in a classic phero story, most of the every day interactions that you talk about, most of the real life interactions are going to be with women who are moderately attracted to you and of average aggressiveness at a point in their cycles when they are only somewhat likely to be very receptive to the pheros. That\'s what the odds are on an average, everyday, real-life encounter.

    So, if on *average*, let\'s say a woman\'s level of reaction (not her rating of you, but her likeliness of acting aggressively acttracted) to you is likely to be, say, 5, on a scale of 1 to 10. It takes a nine, say, to get her to be so enamored of you to make a move for fear of losing you (if she can get up the nerve to make the first move at all). The pheros will boost the response a notch or two (now we\'re up to 7), enough to make her stand and listen if you approach her, but not enough to make her pursue. You still have to work to get her to the 9 range. You just don\'t have to work as hard. It\'s not magic.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    I agree with Truth. I have had my share of DIHL\'s and whatever, but as I said before, I have never had a \'hit\'. What I mean is, I have had DIHL\'s before, and nothing tells me that the pheromones are changing anything. If I get a DIHL, how on earth would I know if it\'s because of the pheromones? So I have tried to take notes of reactions when wearing pheros and when not wearing, and I honestly can\'t contribute any reactions to the pheros. Perhaps part of the hits reported are due to the fact that we want the pheros to work and are more alert to what\'s going on.
    About clubs, for example, if before using pheros you almost never got any girl to talk to you, and with pheromones, always get one, then that would be proof in my book. Unfortunately, I cna\'t report anything like that.
    Finn

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    I wore a drop of my CK1, andro-1, SOE, Edge mix on my arm today. After a few hours, I smell primarily SOE, even though it\'s only a small part of the mix.

    On clothing, the CK-1 scent lasts longer, and I can barely smell the SOE.

    Interesting... Different components disperse at different rates -- especially noticable on skin.

    I wonder if the pheros in andro-1 and Edge disperse faster than the pheros in SOE, or if it\'s just the scent components (CK-1 and SOE scents).

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    Marz and Franki :

    In my post I said up that a \'hit\' means different things to different people. If YOU see your good luck in the club scene is directly related to your pheromone use, then by all means keep it up and may the hits continue [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] I just think there are many other factors other than pheromones in the night club atmosphere in your favor as far as meeting your next girlfriend or one night stand.

    It\'s alot easier to go out and get laid by looking for it in a bar or club that picking up a quart of milk in the grocery store ... don\'t you agree ? So TO ME a club isn\'t the true test of pheromones effectiveness.

    ------------------------------
    Sympatible ;

    I realize those \'red letter\' hits we read about are few and far between
    (a.k.a\'s supermarket meeting and the guy in the bakery being PRIME examples of what I would call \'true hits\' ).

    I agree with you that it\'s ones much less obvious that we need to keep out eyes open for. I interact with people all the time so have been especially conscious of little things, out of the ordinary, that might be
    my first \'phero hit\'. As of today , about three months worth of trial amounts and combos, I have to honestly say as Finn and Truth, that I have seen NOTHING different. I\'m not going to exaggerate a \'Hell-o\', \'Thank You, or a waitress filling my water glass in the course of a day - the normal, eveyday things - as a result of pheros and report it here as such.

    I don\'t state that pheromones don\'t work, but for some people there is a chance they won\'t , simple as that.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    Jim,

    I believe Truth has reported SOME changed behaviour, which he relates to pheromones, if I´am right.

    Personally I think people who have drunk and whose inhibitions are lowered give a more HONEST reaction to the mones. This means clubs should be the right environment to test pheromones. I admit this is a complete turn-around of your argumentation. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    I\'ve tentatively reported some isolated changes in behavior, but I\'ve never been convinced of differences observed over many weeks.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    No single hit will ever convince me of the power of phero. However, reports of consistent improvements in female interactions with phero use is more convincing. In fact, if I ever find my magic potion, I\'d like to go off of it for a while just to make sure that it\'s not due to a change in my personality over time, etc.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    So, how has others been doing with the Minimalist Minifesto. Interactions have definitely been more positive this week. One thing I notice about low dosing is that I\'m a lot less self-conscious about how I smell. I guess I never was comfortable smelling like cologne with an unknown stink factor. =P.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    I tried a minimalist approach yesterday when going out with an old friend. Had a few chats with a couple of nice ladies, but nothing to report. For all I know the bottles I have received might as well contain placebo. Maybe this is all a setup, Bruce sends every other guy scented water and collects the responses to find out wether or not the stuff works...
    :-)
    Finn

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    Ha! Yes, Bruce would be in the position to conduct a very good (but unethical) study!

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    There was two studies on human sweat, one from axillary region (high -none and andro-1) and one from apocrine glands (high andro-1 and -nol). That\'s how I got my 2:1:1 ratio. I didn\'t hear anything about -rone and would eliminate it from my mix if I could. I don\'t have the chem kit though.

    a.k.a., I do seem to be striking up better conversations with girls all this week with smaller doses, but I can\'t tell if it\'s just the reverse baseline effect. Before I stunk and/or feared I stunk. I\'m not confident now that at least pheros aren\'t hurting my chances!

    Your two drops of PI on a towel in the trash can is interesting. It\'s still consistent with your minimalist philosophy, since two drops on a cold towel would release slower than two drops on skin or warm clothing. Hmm... What can I do to have a little fun with objects? =).

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Minimalist Manifesto (long post)

    truth,
    Interesting approach (trying to mimic human sweat). I’d like to try that myself, but where did you get those concentrations? When I checked the post “Concentration of pheromones...” -none and andro 1 seem to appear in similar ratios; and I didn’t read (or am too ignorant to notice) anything about -nol or -rone.

    Bass Man,
    Thanks for testing out my formula and, yes, that’s exactly the quality of hits that I believe we need if we want to score on a consistent basis.

    truth & Finn,
    OK, I’m sure minimalism isn’t THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION for guys that aren’t seeing results. I just believe it’s the most effective approach.

    I also can’t understand why pheromones shouldn’t work for everybody. A couple of years ago I noticed unmistakable changes in women’s behavior just by pouring two drops of PI on a towel, in the trashcan, in the lounge at work. (No, women didn’t start humping the trashcan, but they did tend to congregate in that area, they were more energized, and within minutes the topic of discussion was sex.) So if it works for paper why shouldn’t it work for humans?

    I’m no scientist, but logic would dictate that the problem is not the ABSENCE of a missing variable (looks, money, charisma, pheromone X) but the PRESENCE of a countervailing variable. (Overdosing seemed like the likeliest candidate, but maybe there are other countervailing variables.) Does that make sense?

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