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  1. #31
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    visit-red-300x50PNG
    I mostly agree with you Rbt,

    with some additions. IMO the whole Health Care Reform thing is more ideological than otherwise. In the same way

    that the Left is using AGW to control energy policy/consumption, they're using Health Care as a power grab. The

    authoritarian elitism of this administration is not satisfied with simple and effective reform, they're pushing a

    far reaching agenda which will ultimately establish gov't control over every aspect of life.

    Of course they

    don't say this, but follow the policies and over-arching agenda to their logical conclusion and you'll see

    coercion to be far more operative than freedom to choose. This is only one of the reasons why the Dems are pushing

    this through in secret.

    Our health care system does not suck if you look at what it accomplishes. The reform

    necessary to correct its inherent flaws could be addressed in two simple ways: 1) Allow us to buy insurance across

    state lines and 2) tort reform. There are other things as well, but these two would bring down both insurance and

    delivery costs.

    Addressing the fraud and waste in current entitlement programs should have been Obama's first

    play if he was serious about HC reform. I agree with Bel on this point, what we do NOT need is another huge,

    expensive, inefficient bureaucracy controlling 1/6 of our economy.


  2. #32
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    "Out of touch" to be sure.

    I

    wonder if this administration even wants to be in touch. Or, if they do, or give lip service to such, they

    completely ignore what they hear.

    Obama:
    "People are angry and they are frustrated. Not just because of

    what's happened in the last year or two years, but what's happened over the last eight years."



    [URL]http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Politics/president-obama-scott-brown-massachusetts-victory/story?id=9611222[/U

    RL]

    So, even as O recognizes citizen anger, he blames Bush in the same breath. In his ideological arrogance he

    simply cannot accept the fact that the people of this country do not want, and will not accept, his brand of

    "Change".

    Under Bush, I don't recall any Tea Party movements, angry town hall protesters or Democrat Scott Brown

    type election victories.

    And finally, from SEIU Pres Andy Stern:
    "The reason Ted Kennedy's seat is no longer

    controlled by a Democrat is clear: Washington's inability to deliver the change voters demanded in November

    2008. Make no mistake, political paralysis resulted in electoral failure."
    (emphasis

    mine)



    I almost hope this kind of delusion persists. Keep in mind that Andy Stern is a frequent

    visitor to the WH, and SEIU was recently given a pass on paying the "Cadillac Plan" tax on high end insurance

    policies.


  3. #33
    Moderator Mtnjim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idesign View Post
    ...Under

    Bush, I don't recall any Tea Party movements, angry town hall protesters or Democrat Scott Brown type election

    victories....
    Of course not, they're creations of the machine that chose "W" and got him elected.
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

  4. #34
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtnjim View Post
    Of course

    not, they're creations of the machine that chose "W" and got him elected.
    I don't really believe that.

    The claim has been going around but only from opposing parties and only as a means of deriding the participants. Its

    pretty standard tactics to attack groups like that when they show any sign of growth. Almost all the attacks I've

    seen have been filled with lies.

    Towards the end of Bush's term, some tea parties had been held, including at

    least one in the Dallas area. The tea party movement is against big government and high taxes of all types, without

    regard for political affiliation. Many independents and a few democrats, more at every one, attend those

    gatherings.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  5. #35
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtnjim View Post
    Of course

    not, they're creations of the machine that chose "W" and got him elected.
    Well, I was speaking

    figuratively for the most part. But since you brought it up, Republicans are not really known for their grass

    roots, activist ability to organize.

    Looking at the recent tea party and town hall protests, you see a lot of

    hand made signs, each one different, and expressing several themes.

    Looking at a Saul Alinsky "machine" protest

    you'll see professionally made signs with identical messages (Stop Plate Techtonics, NOW!). And a line of buses

    around the corner.


  6. #36
    Phero Guru Rbt's Avatar
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    Just as an aside. I got my W-2 from

    where I have been working this year.

    It was interesting to note that according to Federal figures I am under

    "poverty" level.

    Fortunately I really don't need the income as much as I need SS credits. My stint in a Federal

    Goverment job that was not covered under SS meant no credits... so now I need to catch up. But the main point is

    that I suspect a large number of people in the US fall into the same "underemployed" status as I would. In fact I

    have heard (granted I don't have figures to back it up) that if one takes into account the "underemployed" the real

    "unemployed/underemployment" figures are closer to 20% rather than the 10% you hear quoted. Which of course also

    does not include those who have given up.

    The other sad thing is, and again this is possibly not fully true, is

    that I saw an article about someone who has been living in "Section 8" housing for something like 57 of her 58

    years. But I can believe that once someone gets into that "entitlement" rut, there is little or no incentive to get

    out of it.

    Sad.
    The opposite of love isn't hate.
    It's apathy
    .

  7. #37
    Moderator Mtnjim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rbt View Post
    ...The other sad

    thing is, and again this is possibly not fully true, is that I saw an article about someone who has been living in

    "Section 8" housing for something like 57 of her 58 years. But I can believe that once someone gets into that

    "entitlement" rut, there is little or no incentive to get out of it.

    Sad.
    You're right not true,

    Section 8 hasn't been around that long.

    One

    can look at the history of the federal government's involvement in housing in three broad phases – the Depression

    era through 1949; the 1960s and 1970s; and the Reagan years to the present. The Section 8 programs were created

    during the second of these periods, in 1974
    , but to more fully appreciate the recent changes and current policy

    dilemmas involving Section 8, it is useful to understand the overall context – what came before and what has

    followed since the enactment of these programs.
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

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