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  1. #1
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    Default Current politics in the US

    We've had

    some pretty good discussions on political/social matter here, but it seems the whole subject has fallen by the


    Its curious that no one is posting about the most comprehensive and radical attempt at restructuring our

    country and society that's currently taking place.

    I kind of spoke my mind in one thread and probably pissed off

    a member or seven, but that's no reason to end any discussion. Politics is a dirty game, as the current

    administration, like others before it, is proving in spades.

    I think I'll use this thread to post opinion and

    news reports from various sources, both domestic and international.

    It would be nice to hear some commentary

    from the entire spectrum of opinion. Passionate opinion is most welcome if its in the realm of ideas, and not

    personal attacks.

    The founders of this country fought each other before, during and after the Constitutional

    Convention. The signing of the Constitution brought decades of intense debate on working out the crucial tenants of

    a free society based on the highest ideals of government ever articulated in a single document. Their hatred of

    tyranny bonded them in the midst of their disagreements on how to form a government which protected our new society

    from such abuses of power as were imposed by absolute monarchs.

    That this debate should continue is part of

    being American, and is essential to keeping our society free from tyrants, both foreign and domestic.

    A tyrant is

    measured by the limits he imposes upon the freedom of any individual. These limits take many forms, and always

    begin with subtle restrictions and penalties. A more advanced tyrant will impose himself on a society at large with

    supplications to its weaker elements.

    What we are facing today is a combination of willing conformity seduced by

    some false ideal of political correctness, and an uneducated apathy which selfishly looks for the shallowest water

    in which to wash their collective conscience.

    These are only my opinions of course, and I'd love to hear

    differences. More to follow.

  2. #2
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    I'm a great fan of Thomas

    Jefferson, who often wrote about the limitations to be placed on a governemnt. If you look at it, the constitution

    and the bill of rights are more a list of things the governemnt should not do than anything else.

    From my

    perspective, the primary function of the federal government is to protect our shores. That does not include

    involving us in foreign wars or making us the police for the entire world. Unfortunately, our government is failing

    at the most important function it has, as demonstrated by the constant flood of illegal aliens into our country and

    the ready acceptance of them by so many members of the government.

    While our governemnt fails to protect our

    borders, it spends most of its capital doing things that can be construed as outside the authority of the federal

    sphere, such as regulating marriage, instituting federal health and welfare programs and attempting to regulate how

    we live. These functions are constitutionally state powers and should never have been relinquished to the federal


    I believe that the powers of the federal government should be sharply curtailed to the levels

    intended by the framers of the constitution and the power hungry men in women now in elected office should be

    replaced with a true citizen legislature. However, that isn't going to happen while we continue to vote the same

    pack of liars, fools and frauds into office year after year. So long as we continue to believe the government has

    our best interests at heart and the taxation is the answer to everything, that a nanny government is in our best

    interests, we are doomed to failure.

    Something needs to change. In my opinion, we are on a downhil slide into

    socialism and that only leads to ruin eventually.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  3. #3
    Phero Guru Rbt's Avatar
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    I can understand the sentiments and

    feelings, but I lean more toward coming to these forums for info on pheromones, social interaction, etc, and not

    politics or religion.

    All I will say is that this is a nation that is still "under construction." We broke away

    from the European model of monarchy and a hodgepodge of independent kingdoms (call them warlords if you wish to put

    it in to today's terms). We continue to experiement with our own form of representative democracy.

    Fought a

    "War Between The States" over the form that a central govenment should take, a "federal" system under which the laws

    of the states are ranked under those of the central government, or the opposite, or "con-federal" government, in

    which the laws of each state trumped the laws of the central government. Something that in many ways still really

    isn't settled yet (ref: "marriage" laws [really the legal term "wed" should be used], and drug laws [as in

    marijuana use]).

    The pendulum may swing, but so far it has never lingered long in the extremes.

    And as for

    immigration? Legal or otherwise. I would far rather live in a county that people are willing to risk their lives to

    get IN to rather than get OUT of.

    It's too early in my morning for me to say much more than that...
    The opposite of love isn't hate.
    It's apathy

  4. #4
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    If you

    look at it, the constitution and the bill of rights are more a list of things the governemnt should not do than

    anything else.

    That's exactly the main point here Bel. The framers knew very well the tyranny they

    had experienced, and they knew that to avoid it in this country severe limits had to be placed on the Federal side.

    All powers not specifically enumerated are to relegated to the States.

    I'm not so concerned about

    the downward march toward Socialism, that began a long time ago and will continue, only now - with this

    administration - at light speed. What I think is happening is that, as a country, we're blindly relinquishing

    core freedoms in the most personal areas of our lives.

    Political correctness is not a joke, and it has become

    joined at the hip with the nanny mentality to unprecedented levels. What now may seem good or innocuous to some;

    bans on trans-fats, exhorbitant taxation on alcohol and tobacco, taxes on soda pop - all for the "greater good",

    will end up being but baby steps to a greater crime. If we accept the premise that we should be regulated and/or

    taxed for what should be purely personal choices, then we'll accept its logical conclusion, that the gov't is more

    capable of managing our lives.

    But - and this is an even more nefarious kicker to the equation - there are those

    who believe that they themselves are more capable of managing your life and your decisions than you are, and these

    people continually refer to the "common good".

    Intro to Federalist Papers; section 5;

    “…dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people

    than under the zeal for a firm and efficient government.”

    The "right to health care" is artificial, and

    is being used to push the most blatant, calculated and egregious power grab in our history. Calling it "health care

    reform" is a purely cynical re-packaging. The economics are bad enough, and they are bad, but having the federal

    gov't instrumental in personal health decisions is Orwellian at best. This is the most personal and intimate part

    of any life, more than finances, marriage or any other area, and it has the greatest impact on the quality of

    physical life we each choose. To be required to pass these decisions through a gov't bureaucracy is beyond the

    pale of rational thinking.

    Conclusion: I can suffer (yet despise) a Socialist system, but I cannot suffer a

    totalitarian minority which claims special privilege to my wallet, my health and my Constitutional rights so well

    conceived 200+ years ago.

    I guess I'm an extremist for entertaining these silly notions.

    Finally, a word

    from our president on what the Constitution "should" say.

  5. #5
    Phero Dude
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    I am a firm believer in small

    government my self.The real trick is that our government also has the resonsability of regulating certain behaviors

    that may be harmful or dangerous to scociety as a whole.The unfortunate problem with government is that any

    government body has a nearly infinate capacity to screw up a free lunch.As a result of personal greed, self

    promotion and a sense of entitlement,our politicians have successfuly perverted what is supposed to be a noble

    profession into a perverse orgy of greed, gluttony, sloth and hedonism.With the help of wealthy individual

    contributors, companies and corperations they have sold us out and buried us under a moutain of totaly useless

    legislation designed to keep us monkeys in our cages.

    Its shocking the absolute disregard that the avaerage

    politician has for average people.They realy do think of us as monkeys that need to be protected from our selves.Its

    not hard to see why thier power is so intoxicating.I remember as a child going to the state capitol for a ceremony

    for my grandfather who had been an engineer for the state for many years.We arrived late in the evening and the sky

    was dark.I remember looking at the capitol building bathed in lights with flags flying high and huge magestic trees

    in the perfectly manacured grounds.The buildings were huge but the capitol itself realy stood out.The stone pillars

    and the huge mahogany doors.Walking into the building I was emediately faced with beutiful marble columns and

    handsome marble floors.An enormous chandalier hung from the celing.My grandfather explained that it weighed over two

    thousand pounds and that when Alaska had thier big earthquake in 1964 ( we live in Washington State)the chandalier

    swung back and forth nearly a foot and kept swinging from inertia alone for over a week.

    The mood in the

    building was somewhat like a church but seemed somehow bigger.Everything was big.The doors, the desks, the

    halls...everything.There was a very real sense of power in this place.A sense that great things happened here.And I

    was only a very young child.I had no idea what this building was for I just knew it was the most important place I

    had ever been.I think I was about five or so...

    Fast forward to the early 80's. I visited our nations capitol

    as a teenager with my mom.Walking across the capitol mall and seeing the reflecting pool and the Washington

    monument.The White House and the Capitol building brought all the feelings that I had when I was a child rushing

    into the present.The sense of power was overwhelming.The realization that the most powerful men in the

    country...even the world walked these grounds wasnt just an acedemic was nearly a religious


    The people who lead us every day very likely feel the same way when they win the great popularity

    contest in thier states and collectively convene in Washington D.C. to make decisions on behalf of thier respective

    states.They very likely see the same buildings I saw and feel the sense of power and awe as they stroll the capitol

    grounds for the first time.When their staff continuously refer to them as "sir" and open doors for them.Cars are

    brought for them with the wave of a hand.Staffers tend to thier every need from filing and research to making sure

    thier drinks have enough ice in them.They wheel and deal with power brokers from all aspects of scociety.Captains of

    industry, bankers, lawyers, generals and lobyists.Even heads of state pay thier respects to these men and women.The

    sense of power and superiority must be absolutly epic.Better than winning a superbowl or a world series...those

    things are fleeting.This is something that these people live every in and day out.And sooner or later it

    melts thier brains into the pile of crap that we call...politician.

    These egomaniacs are the ones that we are

    trusting to do the right thing for us.They use our tax dollars to buy expensive booze and even more expensive

    hookers and dont even try to act even alittle bit ashamed when they get called out for it.They will use even the

    most benevolent legislation to tack on "riders" so that thier friends can feed at the big government trough and

    think of it as an entitlement.They actualy think we work for them.Because after all...we are just a bunch of stupid


    health care reform...Im all for it.Just not what our government is going to hand us.Banking

    reform...good luck...theres too many payoffs going on there.Trade reform...nevermind.

    Show me an honest and

    decent politician thats looking out for us and I will prove your halucinating.
    "The wages of sin is death.But after taxes it's just sort of a tired feeling realy." -Ellen DeGeneres

  6. #6
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    Nice bit of writing Tim.

    I think your assessment parallels the narrative of our Democracy, from those who wield power to those

    who skim from the largesse of a prosperous nation for selfish reasons. The corruption of ideals is not exclusive to

    politicians, they're just the reflection of what we've allowed ourselves to become. And, its all the more

    egregious since they swear to uphold the constitution and claim to represent the people.

    Washington is an insular

    society, inbred from within its own self importance, driven by self perpetuation and no longer able to see past the

    rote ideological justifications of the class they've created for themselves. Indeed, having created a language

    where double-speak and hyperbole are accepted cases, they need only dip into a handful of weighty but meaningless

    phrases to bolster shallow consciences and deflect reality, and often the truth.

  7. #7
    Phero Dude
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    Thanks I appreciate your

    taking the time to read my ranting.

    The saddest part of our "democracy" is the disconnection betwen the

    politicians and the people.But what realy makes me angry...the kind of anger that can either keep you warm at night

    or drive you to drinking is that we, the people have all the power in the world to hold these people

    accountable.There is absolutly nothing in the political climate today that cannot be fixed by an angry mob with

    torches and pitch forks.Our country is fully capable(thanks to the second amendment) of correcting these issues in

    very short order.

    But...and its a very big but...It was found in the Roman empire that it was possible for

    government to do anything it wanted to do as long as the people were kept fed...and entertained.The romans spent

    vast amounts of money making sure that a certain amount of all the food stuffs produced were available to the poor

    and under priveliged and they spent even more money making sure that even in the far flung provinces that everyone

    had access to amphitheaters and coliseums and hipodromes and the public forums.By doing this they insured that

    people would be fed and distracted to the point that matters of government realy didnt show up on the regular

    persons radar.And if they did have a complaint they could go to the forum and bitch to thier hearts content and feel

    like they did something about it.Then it was off to the public baths to hang out and get clean and in many cases

    engage in other forms of "entertainment."

    Joseph Goebles figured this out too and encouraged the German

    equivilant of hollywood to make lots of movies that would keep people distracted and pumped up.The Government spent

    alot of money making sure people were either taken care of or if they were undesireable they simply disapeared.

    In our country we have something very similar but its even worse.Here, we have a comercial enterprise that rakes

    in hundreds of billions of dollars a year to keep us distracted.Between the internet, cable TV and hollywood we have

    achieved total control over ourselves.We actualy do it to ourselves.When we come home from work we grasp at our bowl

    of cheap pasta with cheap pasta goop from a can on top and spin in front of our computers or TV and the rest takes

    care of itself.The government doesnt even have to do anything except sit back and watch us do the job for them.

    Until the day comes that the lights dont come on when we flip the switch, the TV doesnt respond to the pressing of

    its various buttons, the computer stares at us darkly and the pasta bowl sits empty with no chance of being

    filled...we will continue to see the kind of insane greed and corruption that we see today.We are so distracted that

    in this day and age they dont even try to hide the corruption anymore.Corperate officers and politicians will stand

    on national TV and tell us that bank executives that ran thier companies into the ground and recieved government

    bailouts are going to recieve huge seven and eight figure bonuses for thier "performace" and nothing happens.There

    was a time in our nations history when that sort of behavior would have been met with brutal violence.And as a

    result this sort of thing just didnt happen or it happened very very quietly behind closed doors.Now they will look

    you in the eyes and say "what are you going to do about it?"

    When the lights go out...thats when things will

    change.But by then it will be way too late.
    "The wages of sin is death.But after taxes it's just sort of a tired feeling realy." -Ellen DeGeneres

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